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fARINGS  REGARDING  SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATERIAL 
TO  THE  SOVIET  UNION  DURING  WORLD  WAR  II 


HEARINGS 

BEFORE  THE 

COMMITTEE  ON  UN-AMEEICAN  ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE  OF  REPEESENTATIVES 

EIGHTY-FIRST  CONGRESS 

FIRST  AND  SECOND  SESSIONS 


DECEMBER  5  AND  7,  1949;  JANUARY  23,  24,  25,  AND  26, 
AND  MARCH  2,  3,  AND  7,  1950 


Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities 


UNITED  STATES 
GOVERNMENT  PRINTING  OFFICE 
S9334  WASHINGTON  :   1950 

PUBLIC 


( 


A 


i//i 


MAY   4  1950 


COMMITTEE  ON  UN-AMERICAN  ACTIVITIES 
United  States  House  of  Representatives 

JOHN  S.  WOOD,  Georgia,  Chairman 

FRANCIS  E.  WALTER,  Pennsylvania  RICHARD  M.  NIXON.  California 

BURR  P.  HARRISON,  Virginia  FRANCIS  CASE,  South  Dakota 

JOHN  McSWEENEY,  Ohio  HAROLD  H.  VELDE,  Illinois 

MORGAN  M.  MOULDER,  Missouri  BERNARD  W.  KEARNEY,  New  York 

Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  Counsel 
Louis  J.  Russell.  Senior  Investigator 
Benjamin  Mandel,  Director  of  Research 
John  W.  Carrington.  Clerk  of  Committee 

II 


CONTENTS 


December  5,  1949,  testimony  of —  Page 

Louis  J.  Russell 902 

George  Racey  Jordan 908 

December  7,  1949,  testimony  of  Lt.  Gen.  Leslie  R.  Groves 935 

January  23,  1950,  testimony  of  Lawrence  C.  Burman 957 

January  24,  1950,  testimony  of — 

Dr.  Phillip  L.  Merritt • 979 

Charles  Edward  McKillips 985 

Dr.  Phillip  L.  Merritt  (resumed). 986 

Lawrence  C.  Burman  (resumed) 1002 

Hermann  H.  Rosenberg 1004 

January  25,  1950,  testimony  of — 

Courtney  E.  Owens,..' 1042 

Col.  Thomas  T.  Crenshaw 1052 

January  26,  1950,  testimony  of — 

Henry  A.  Wallace 1070 

James  P.  Hoopes 1 100 

March  2,  1950,  testimony  of  Donald  T.  Appell 1120 

March  3,  1950,  testimony  of — 

Donald  T.  Appell  (resumed) 1145 

George  Racey  Jordan 1153 

March  7,  1950,  testimony  of  Victor  A.  Kravchenko 1175 

III 


HEAEINGS  KEGAEDING  SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATE- 
EIAL  TO  THE  SOVIET  UNION  DUEING  WOELD  WAE  II 


MONDAY,   DECEMBER   5,    1949 

United  States  House  of  Kepresentatives, 

Subcommittee  of  the 
Committee  on  un-American  Activities, 

W ashington,  D.  O. 

A  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  met, 
pursuant  to  call,  at  11 :  15  a.  m.  in  room  226,  Old  House  Office  Build- 
ing, Hon.  John  S.  Wood  (chairman)  presiding. 

Committee  members  present:  Hon.  John  S.  Wood,  chairman; 
Francis  E.  Walter,  Burr  P.  Harrison,  and  Morgan  M.  Moulder. 

Staff  members  present:  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  counsel;  Louis  J. 
Russell,  senior  investigator;  Courtney  Owens,  investigator;  Benjamin 
Mandel,  director  of  research ;  John  W.  Carrington,  clerk ;  and  A.  S. 
Poore,  editor. 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  the  committee  be  in  order,  please. 

Let  the  record  disclose  that  for  purposes  of  this  particular  hear- 
ing a  subcommittee  composed  of  Mr.  Walter,  Mr.  Harrison,  Mr. 
Moulder,  and  Mr.  Wood  has  been  designated.     They  are  all  present. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  committee  and  its  staff  has  been 
for  some  time  pursuing  an  investigation  of  reported  sales  of  uranium 
to  the  Soviet  Government.  In  view  of  the  fact  that  so  much  pub- 
licity has  recently  been  given  to  the  sale  of  this  material  to  the  Soviets, 
it  appears  advisable  that  the  facts  developed  by  the  committee  thus 
far  be  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  American  public.  I  would  like, 
therefore,  to  call  as  the  first  witness  this  morning,  Louis  J.  Kussell, 
senior  investigator  for  the  committee. 

A  review  of  the  file  pertaining  to  the  matter  of  the  uranium  ship- 
ments to  Russia  indicates  that  there  is  some  disagreement  or  conflict 
in  statements  made  by  various  persons  examined  or  interrogated  dur- 
ing the  course  of  the  investigation  conducted  in  connection  with  this 
matter.  It  therefore  appears  advisable  that  this  morning's  proceed- 
ings be  confined  to  the  subject  of  the  shipments  of  uranium  and 
uranium  compounds  to  the  Soviet  Government,  and  such  other  mat- 
ters that  we  may  be  able  to  develop  through  another  witness  if  he 
appears. 

Mr.  Wood.  Very  well.  Mr,  Russell,  will  you  stand  up  and  be  sworn. 
You  solemnly  swear  the  evidence  you  give  this  subcommittee  will  be 
the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you 
God  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  I  do. 

901 


902  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    :MATERIAL 

TESTIMONY  OF  LOUIS  J.  RUSSELL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  please  state  your  name? 

Mr.  Russell.  Louis  J.  Eusseli. 

Mr  .Tavenneb.  You  are  employed  by  the  committee  as  its  senior  in- 
vestigator, are  you  not? 

Mr.  Russell.  I  am. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Have  you  had  occasion  to  make  an  investigation  of 
reported  sales  of  uranium  to  the  Russian  Government  during  the  pe- 
riod of  your  employment  by  the  committee  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  I  have. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  investigation  related,  did  it  not,  to  the  sales 
of  uranium  which  were  made  to  the  Russian  Government  from  sources 
within  this  country? 

Mr.  Rltssell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  many  sales  of  uranium  were  made  to  the  Soviet 
Government  according  to  the  facts  developed  by  your  investigation? 

Mr.  Russell.  Three  that  we  know  of. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  the  Russians  first  become  interested  in 
the  purchase  of  uranium  or  uranium  compounds  within  the  United 
States? 

Mr.  Russell.  In  February  1943,  according  to  documents  which  the 
staff  of  the  committee  has  examined. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  What  officials  of  the  Soviet  Government  were  prin- 
cipally interested  in  the  Russian  attempts  to  obtain  uranium  or  ura- 
nium compounds  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  There  were  several.  One  of  them  was  V.  Finogenov 
of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission;  and  N.  S.  Fomichev  of  the 
Soviet  Purchasing  Commission;  N.  S.  Stepanov  of  the  Soviet  Pur- 
chasing Commission ;  and  a  General  Rudensky,  Col.  A.  N.  Kotikov 
was  the  ultimate  recipient  of  the  uranium  material.  He  too,  was  at- 
tached to  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Russell,  at  this  point  would  you  relate  the 
details  of  the  first  two  shipments  of  uranium  compounds  to  the  Soviet 
Government  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes.  Regarding  the  issuance  of  the  export  licenses 
for  uranium  compounds,  the  committee  received  a  letter  from  the 
United  States  State  Department  from  which  I  will  quote.  However, 
since  the  letter  contains  controversial  material  as  well  as  confidential 
data,  I  will  read  only  the  first  paragraph.  This  paragraph  discloses 
that  certain  export  licenses  for  the  shipment  of  uranium  materials  to 
the  Soviet  Union  were  granted,  according  to  the  records  of  the  Lend- 
Lease  Administration  and  the  successor  to  that  agency,  the  Foreign 
Economic  Administration. 

This  is  a  letter  addressed  to  Donald  T.  Appell.  a  member  of  the  in- 
vestigating staff  of  the  Un-American  Activities  Committee,  from  the 
Department  of  State. 

Mr.  Moulder.  What  is  the  date  of  the  letter? 

Mr.  Russell.  June  11,  1948.     [Reading:] 

Reference  is  made  to  your  visit  to  the  Department  of  State,  on  behalf  of 
the  House  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  with  reference  to  a  reported 
shipment  of  some  black  uranium  oxide  to  the  Soviet  Union  in  1943.  The 
Department  of  State  had  nothing  to  do  with  this  transaction.  However,  the 
records  of  the  Division  for  Soviet  Supply  of  the  Office  of  Lend-Lease  Admin- 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  903 

istration  ami  its  successor  agency,  the  Foreign  Economic  Administration,  which 
have  been  absorbed  by  the  Department  of  State,  indicate  that  in  March  1943 
two  export  licenses  were  granted,  one  for  200  pounds  of  urano-uranic  oxide  and 
220  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  and  the  other  for  500  pounds  of  urano-uranic 
oxide  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate.  The  records  also  indicate  that  an 
export  license  was  granted  in  April  1943  for  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal,  and 
that  in  November  of  tiie  same  year  an  export  license  was  granted  for  1,000 
grams  of  heavy  water  which  I  believe  is  also  of  interest  to  your  committee. 
Notations  and  memoranda  of  the  Lend-Lease  Administration,  included  in  the 
records,  indicate  that  there  was  some  consultation  between  representatives  of 
the  War  Department,  FEA,  and  Lend-Lease  on  the  granting  of  export  licenses 
for  the  uranium  materials.  These  records  do  not,  however,  include  any  actvial 
contemporary  communications  from  the  War  Department. 

As  to  the  shipment  of  the  material  to  the  Soviet  Union,  the  fol- 
lowing testimony  was  given  to  the  committee  by  Herman  R.  Rosen- 
berg, of  Chemator,  Inc.,  New  York  City.  This  concern  occupied  a 
position  similar  to  that  of  a  broker  in  the  uranium  transactions  with 
the  Soviet  Government  : 

On  February  1,  1943,  we  received  an  inquiry  from  the  Government  Purchas- 
ing Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union,  Washington,  D.  C,  Mr.  N.  S.  Fomichev, 
for  220  ix)unds  uranium  oxide  (U30S),  220  pounds  uranium  nitrate  (uranyl 
nitrate,  U02  (NO3)2+6H20),  and  25  pounds  uranium  metal. 

We  had  previously  sold  to  the  Russians  approximately  four  or  six  small 
lots  of  various  chemicals,  during  1942  and  1948,  aggregating  a  few  thousand 
dollars.  This  was  a  very  minor  part  of  the  regular  business  done  by  us  during 
the  war  years  with  various  Allied  purchasing  commissions  which  then  offered 
the  only  opportunity  to  continue  "our  export  business  with  those  countries  which 
they  represented,  and  the  United  States  Treasury  Department  l)uying  lend-lease 
supplies. 

This  inquiry  was  the  first  we  had  ever  received  for  uranium  products  from 
any  customer.  Accordingly,  we  had  first  to  find  manufacturers  and  dealers 
in  this  line,  whom  we  contacted  for  the  purpose  of  obtaining  information  about 
this  article  and  to  get  quotations.  We  were  able  to  obtain  at  least  one  offer  for 
each  of  the  products. 

We  also  called  the  War  Production  Board,  New  York  City,  group  2,  to 
inquire  about  regulations  covering  these  products  and  were  told  that  order 
M-2S5  of  January  26,  1943,  had  just  been  issued  which,  however,  merely  pro- 
hibited the  use  of  uranium  chemicals  in  certain  domestic  industries,  like  glass, 
ceramic,  and  pottery  and  that  said  order  said  nothing  regarding  export.  If  the 
material  is  destined  for  war  use  by  the  Russians  this  order  definitely  did  not 
apply.  For  further  details  we  were  referred  to  their  Washington  miscellaneous 
minerals  division.  In  reply  to  our  formal  inquiry,  addressed  to  this  division, 
Mr.  Park,  Assistant  to  R.  J.  Land,  confirmed  that  the  Russian  uranium  require- 
ment was  not  subject  to  regulation  M-285.  In  this  connection,  Mr.  Fomichev 
advised  us  that  the  material  was  not  required  for  any  of  the  uses  restricted  by 
regulation  M-285  but  was  urgently  needed  for  Russian  military  puriwses.  Spe- 
cifically, the  uranium  salts  were  represented  by  the  Russians  to  be  needed  for 
military  medical  purposes  and  the  uranium  metal  for  .their  war  industry  to 
harden  steel  used  for  gun  barrels.  This  information,  together  with  its  source, 
we  submitted  to  the  War  Production  Board  with  our  aforesaid  inquiry. 

Accordingly,  on  February  3,  1943,  we  invited  the  Russian  Mission  to  submit 
to  us  their  firm  order  for  the  uranium  oxide  and  the  m-anium  nitrate.  Yet,  it 
was  not  until  the  middle  of  March  1943  that  such  formal  order  was  received 
by  us.  In  the  meantime  the  Lend-Lease  Administration,  through  Mr.  Moore,  a 
subordinate  of  General  Wessen  of  that  agency,  had  approved  the  transaction, 
advising  us  on  March  8,  1943,  that  "no  further  clearance  will  be  necessary  except 
the  usual  export  license."  Upon  advice  on  March  11,  1943,  of  the  Soviet  Com- 
mission of  the  receipt  of  such  export  license,  we  placed  on  March  15,  1943,  our 
own  order  for  the  200  ( rather  than  220)  pounds  uranium  oxide  and  220  pounds 
uranium  nitrate  with  S.  W.  Shattuck  Chemical  Co.,  Denver,  Colo.  On  March 
23,  1943,  this  company  shipped  the  material  directly  to  "Col.  A.  N.  Kotikov, 
Resident  Representative  of  the  Soviet  Government  Purchasing  Commission  of 
the  Soviet  Union  in  the  United  States  of  America,  Air  Service  Depot  of  the  Air 
Transport  Command,  Gore  Field,  Great  Falls,  Mont." 


904  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

As  for  the  uranium  metal,  no  quotation  was  ever  made  by  us  on  this  Inquiry, 
due  to  diflBculties  encountered  in  supplying  this  material  from  our  expected 
source,  the  Fairmount  Chemical  Co. 

On  March  19,  1943,  the  Soviet  Government  advised  us  that  they  reqiaired 
several  tons  of  uranium  nitrate  and  uranium  chloride  (preferably  uranium 
oxychloride,  otherwise  tri-,  tetra-  or  pentchloride)  or  urano-uranic  oxide, 
which  inquiry  was  passed  on  to  S.  W.  Shattuck  Chemical  Co.,  who  answered 
on  March  25,  1943,  that  they  could  only  offer  500  pounds  each  of  urano-uranic 
oxide  and  uranium  nitrate  and  further  deliveries  only  if  they  received  the  raw 
materials.  We  passed  this  offer  on  to  the  Soviet  Commission  subject  to  receipt 
of  the  necessary  export  license  and  other  permissions. 

On  April  1,  1943,  the  Soviet  Commission  asked  us  to  "reserve"  500  pounds  of 
each  product  as  offered  by  us  and  on  April  5,  1943,  they  confirmed  the  order 
subject  to  receipt  of  export  license.  This  license  (No.  1643180)  was  issued  only 
on  April  26,  1943.  By  that  time  the  Shattuck  Co.  had  withdrawn  their  offer 
as  of  April  22,  1943,  because  the  material  had  been  sold  to  "their  regular  cus- 
tomers." This  made  it  necessary  to  secure  substitute  material  from  the  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  New  York  City,  to  have  the  export  license  amended 
as  of  April  29,  1943,  to  conform  to  the  change  in  product  and  price ;  and  to  obtain 
and  place  the  new  sales  and  purchase  contracts  with  the  Russian  and  Canadian 
parties,  respectively. 

Even  though  we  had  been  advised  by  the  Russians  at  the  outset  that,  contrary 
to  the  first  uranium  transaction,  this  deal  did  not  come  under  lend-lease,  they 
advised  us  on  April  12,  1943,  that  Mr.  Moore  had  granted  the  necessary  approval 
of  the  transaction  as  a  cash  purchase.  With  respect  to  regulation  M-2S5  we 
obtained  an  affidavit  from  the  Russians  stating  that  theoxide  will  be  used  in  the 
manufacture  of  ferro-uranium  compounds  which  in  turn  will  be  used  in  the 
production  of  armaments  and  that  the  uranium  nitrate  will  be  used  for  medical 
pui-poses  directly  connected  with  the  war.  This  affidavit  we  sent  on  to  our  sup- 
pliers who  shipped  the  materials  consisting  of  500  pounds  of  black  uranium  oxide 
and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate,  directly  from  Port  Hope,  Ontario,  Canada, 
to  the  afore-mentioned  Colonel  Kotikov. 

The  gross  invoice  value  of  both  of  the  uranium  deals,  described  herein,  was 
$4,400,  on  which  our  gross  profit  is  estimated  at  $50O-$600.  Both  transactions 
were  handled,  and  payment  made  on  behalf  of  the  Russian  Government  by 
Amtorg  Trading  Corp.,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

On  August  5,  1943,  Mr.  Fomichev*  inquired,  among  various  other  chemicals, 
about  uranium  compounds.  He  said  that  they  asked  the  WPB  if  not  another 
10-15  tons  could  be  located  for  them.  The  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp. 
told  us  that  they  are  not  allowed  any  longer  to  quote  on  uranium  compounds ; 
we  should  approach  the  WPB  but  the  best  way  would  be  that  the  Soviet  Pur- 
chasing Commission  communicate  with  the  Canadian  Ministry  of  Munitions  and 
Supplies.  This  we  passed  on  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  and  had  no 
further  dealings  in  any  uranium  products  since. 

Mr.  Waltek.  Wlien  was  this  statement  made,  Mr.  Russell  ? 

Mr.  EussELL.  It  was  made  on  June  28, 1948. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Russell,  according  to  this  testimony  by  Mr. 
Rosenberg,  export  license  covering  the  shipment  of  uranium  com- 
pounds to  the  Soviet  Government  was  granted  and  the  material  was 
shipped  to  Colonel  Kotikov  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission ;  is 
that  correct? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  this  material,  or  the  uranium  compounds, 
actually  flown  to  the  Soviet  Union,  as  far  as  your  investigation  dis- 
closed ? 

Mr.  Russell.  The  staff  as  of  this  date  has  been  unable  to  locate 
the  actual  manifests  covering  the  uranium  shipments  to  Russia.  It 
was  reported  that  atomic  materials  were  sent  out  of  the  country  as 
ordinary  chemicals  and  that  it  would  be  a  difficult  if  not  fruitless  task 
to  attempt  to  identify  any  particular  manifest  covering  a  shipment 
of  atomic  material.  However,  oral  information  received  by  the  com- 
mittee reflects  that  the  uranium  compounds  were  flown  from  the  bases 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  905 

at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  to  Fairbanks,  Alaska,  and  then  to  Russia.  The 
export  license  for  the  first  shipment  of  uranium  to  Russia  reflects 
that  the  ultimate  destination  of  the  atomic  material  was  to  be  Rasno- 
import,  Ul.  Kuibysheva,  Moscow,  U.  S.  S.  R. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  have  told  the  committee  about  your  investi- 
gation relating  to  the  action  of  the  broker  in  the  sale  of  this  uranium? 

Mr.  RussELii.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Drd  you  conduct  a  further  investigation  of  the 
sellers  of  the  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes.  In  connection  with  the  second  shipment  an  in- 
vestigation was  made  and  it  was  determined  that  after  the  first  ship- 
ment was  made  from  the  United  States  the  Manhattan  Engineering 
District,  under  General  Groves,  cut  off  all  sources  of  supply  of 
uranium  material  in  the  United  States.  However,  the  source  from 
which  tlie  Russians  obtained  the  second  shipment  of  the  1,000  pounds 
of  uranium  compounds  was  a  Canadian  source.  The  principal  offi- 
cer of  this  company  was  investigated  by  the  committee.  However,  it 
developed  that  this  person  had  been  the  subject  of  a  criminal  investi- 
gation by  the  Canadian  Government  in  connection  with  the  sale  of 
uranium  and  radium  products.  The  criminal  case  was,  according  to 
our  investigation,  dropped  and  a  civil  suit  instituted  by  the  Canadian 
Government  in  New  York  City  against  the  individual  involved.  The 
records  of  the  civil  case  were  impounded  by  a  Federal  court  in  New 
York  City  after  a  settlement  of  more  than  $1,000,000  was  effected  by 
the  Canadian  Government.  Following  the  impounding  of  the  records, 
the  committee  issued  a  subpena  calling  for  the  production  of  these 
records  by  a  firm  of  attorneys  in  New  York  City.  After  this  subpena 
was  served,  the  American  State  Department  advised  through  a  letter 
addressed  to  the  committee  that  the  Canadian  Government  had  re- 
quested that  the  investigation  of  the  person  involved  in  the  second 
shipment  be  deferred  insofar  as  the  production  of  the  court  records 
were  concerned,  in  the  interest  of  the  national  security  of  Canada. 
Because  of  this  request  and  the  fact  that  the  subject  of  the  investi- 
gation was  at  the  time  in  Paris,  France,  the  staff  discontinued  its 
investigation,  but  the  investigation  has  now  been  reactivated  in  view 
of  the  fact  that  the  subject  has  returned  to  this  country. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  your  investigation  show  that  export  licenses 
covering  the  shipment  of  other  atomic  materials  to  Russia  were 
granted  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes,  The  documents  that  the  committee  examined 
reflect  that  program  license  No.  339  for  the  shipment  of  heavy  water 
to  Soviet  Russia  was  granted.  The  amount  called  for  by  the  license 
was  1,000  grams  or  41  pounds,  valued  at  $3,250.  This  license  was 
granted  sometime  between  October  1  and  December  31,  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  the  heavy  water  actually  shipped  to  Soviet 
Russia,  as  far  as  you  could  determine  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  The  staff  was  unable  to  locate  the  shipping  manifest 
applying  to  this  particular  license. 

Mr.  Ta\t.nner.  Was  there  any  peculiarity  surrounding  the  pur- 
chase orders  issued  by  the  Russian  Government  in  connection  with 
its  application  for  export  license  covering  uranium  oxide? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes.  One  witness  interrogated  during  the  course  of 
the  investigation  said  that  on  the  invoice  submitted  to  lend-lease  for 


906  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

approval  by  the  Russians  there  would  be  a  list  of  perhaps  30  or  40 
different  nonessential  chemicals.  The  request  for  uranium  would  be 
placed  near  the  end  of  the  list.  This  witness  stated  he  surmised  the 
Kussians  submitted  the  invoices  in  this  manner  hoping  the  purchase 
order  would  be  approved  by  lend-lease  without  a  careful  check  being 
made  because  the  other  articles  set  forth  in  the  invoices  were  non- 
essential items. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  During  the  period  that  these  licenses  were  being 
requested,  and  in  some  cases  issued,  the  fact  that  the  United  States 
was  working  on  atomic  development  was  a  closely  guarded  secret, 
was  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  Therefore,  it  appears  that  the  Russians  knew  in 
February  1943  that  this  country  was  engaged  in  atomic  development, 
does  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Russell,  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  your  investigation  reflect  that  the  shipment 
of  uranium  compounds  to  the  Soviet  Union  was  approved  by  the 
Manhattan  Engineering  District? 

Mr.  Russell.  There  is  a  great  deal  of  controversy  concerning 
whether  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  actually  approved  the 
shipment  of  uranium  material  to  Soviet  Russia.  However,  in  a  letter 
dated  November  18,  1946,  addressed  to  a  Government  official,  Gen. 
Leslie  Groves,  the  head  of  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District,  it  is 
stated : 

Early  in  1948  the  Russian  purchasing  commission  placed  an  order  with  a 
private  firm  in  this  country  for  220  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  and  200  pounds 
of  uranium  oxide.  The  individual  who  arranged  this  purchase  for  the  Russian 
purchasing  commission  is  not  known.  I  have  reason  to  believe  that  the  material 
was  flown  to  Russia  in  a  lend-lease  plane.  When  the  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  became  cognizant  of  this  purchase  efforts  were  made  to  stop  the  ship- 
ment. These  efforts  were  discontinued  when  we  ascertained  that  the  transac- 
tion had  already  been  completely  arranged.  Shortly  after  this  incident  the 
Manhattan  Engineering  District  arranged  f<u-  prohibitions  to  be  placed  on  the 
export  of  uranium  and  for  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  to  be  informed 
of  all  inquiries  concerning  uranium.  The  liaison  established  was  instrumental, 
insofar  as  we  know,  in  stopping  subsequent  shipments  of  uranium  ores.     *     *     * 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  reasons  were  advanced,  during  the  course 
of  your  investigation,  as  to  the  reasons  the  Russians  were  interested  in 
obtaining  uranium  and  securing  information  as  to  the  sources  of 
supply  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  There  were  several  reasons  advanced.  One  was  that 
the  Russians  were  working  on  the  atomic  bomb  themselves;  two,  the 
Russians'  had  received  information  that  the  United  States  was  work- 
ing on  the  development  of  the  atomic  bomb,  and,  through  the  place- 
ment of  orders  for  uranium  compounds  and  uranium  itself,  they 
could  ascertain  whether  uranium  was  considered  a  strategic  element 
by  the  United  States  Government,  thereby  securing  in  effect  some 
verification  of  the  report  that  we  were  engaged  in  the  development 
of  the  atomic  bomb;  three,  the  Russians  hoped  to  determine  whether 
tlie  United  States  was  using  all  of  the  uranium  output  and,  if  it  was 
determined  that  none  was  available  for  export,  they  would  be  pro- 
vided with  some  indication  of  the  extensiveness  of  the  United  States 
atomic  program;  four,  another  reason  advanced  was  that  the  Rus- 
sians wanted  to  ascertain  the  sources  of  supply  for  uranium  avail- 
able to  the  United  States. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  907 

Mr.  TA^^:NNER.  Mr.  Russell,  there  have  appeared  in  the  press  and 
over  the  radio  statements  relatin<r  to  the  transfer  of  quantities  of 
uranium  to  Russia  during  1943.  Have  you  endeavored  to  secure  the 
presence  here  of  the  major  who  made  those  statements? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes.  I  have  been  informed  that  he  will  appear  at 
12 :  30. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  12  :  30  today  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  Today. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  the  course  of  his  statements  the  name  of  the  late 
Harry  Hopkins  was  mentioned.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  whether, 
during  the  course  of  your  investigation,  any  information  came  to  your 
attention,  or  to  the  attention  of  any  other  member  of  the  investi- 
gating staff,  to  your  knowledge,  that  the  late  Harry  Hopkins  was 
involved  in  the  transmittal  of  uranium  to  Russia  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  To  the  best  of  my  knowledge  his  name  was  never 
brought  up.  Another  name  was  brought  up.  I  would  prefer  to  fur- 
nish that  name  in  executive  session. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Walter. 

Mr,  Walter.  AVhcn  did  you  first  start  this  investigation,  Mr.  Rus- 
sell? 

Mr.  Russell.  Approximately  May  or  June  1948. 

Mr.  Walter.  As  I  understand  it,  you  and  your  staff  have  been  en- 
gaged in  a  continuous'  investigation  of  this  matter  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes;  off  and  on. 

Mr.  Walter.  And  at  no  time  during  the  course  of  this  very  thor- 
ough investigation  was  there  any  indication  that  the  late  Harry  Hop- 
kins had  anything  to  do  with  tJie  shipment  of  this  material  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  His  name  was  never  brought  to  my  attention,  and  I  am 
certain  it  was  never  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  other  investi- 
gators, 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Harrison. 

Mr.  Harrison.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Moulder. 

Mr.  Moulder.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Have  you  had  an  opportunity  yet  to  interrogate  or 
question  the  party  who  is  to  be  here  at  12 :  30  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  We  have  not.  I  have  only  talked  to  him  on  the 
phone. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  made  arrangements  for  his  presence? 

Mr.  Russell.  That  is  true. 

Mr.  Walter.  Who  is  that  man,  Mr.  Russell  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  His  name  is  Major  Jordan.  I  am  not  familiar  with 
his  first  name. 

Mr.  Walter.  And  he  assured  you  that  he  would  be  here  at  12 :  30  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Has  he  been  subpenaed  ? 

Mr.  Russell.  He  has  not  been  subpenaed,  but  I  was  promised  he 
would  appear. 

Mr.  Wood.  Have  you  had  any  opportunity  to  subpena  him? 

Mr.  Russell.  No.     He  was  out  of  the  city  at  the  time  I  called  him. 

Mr.  Wood.  Very  well.     Any  further  questions? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  all. 


908  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  stand  at  recess  until  12 :  30. 
(Thereupon,  at  11 :  45  a.  m.,  a  recess  was  taken.) 

AFTERNOON  SESSION 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  the  committee  be  in  order. 

Let  the  record  show  that  the  subcommittee  heretofore  appointed  by 
the  chairman  are  all  present — Mr.  Walter,  Mr.  Harrison,  Mr.  Moulder, 
and  Mr.  Wood. 

Are  you  ready  to  proceed  ? 

Mr.  Ta\tjnner.  Yes,  sir.  As  the  next  witness  I  would  like  to  call 
Mr.  Jordan. 

Mr.  Wood.  Major  Jordan,  will  you  stand,  please,  and  be  sworn. 
You  solemnly  swear  the  evidence  you  give  this  subconmiittee  will  be 
the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you 
God? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  do,  sir. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GEORGE  RACEY  JORDAN 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  are  Mr.  George  Racey  Jordan  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  believe  a  subpena  was  served  on  you  today  re- 
questing your  presence  here  today  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  received  such  a  subpena. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  the  original  subpena  in  evidence, 
and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Jordan  Exhibit  A."  ^ 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  it  be  admitted  without  objection. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  your  residence,  Mr.  Jordan  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Well,  I  have  an  apartment  in  New  York  City  at  307 
East  Forty-fourth  Street.  I  have  a  country  home  in  Pennsylvania 
and  own  a  ranch  in  the  State  of  Washington,  80  acres  on  the  water 
front. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  has  come  to  the  attention  of  the  conxmittee  that 
you  recently  made  a  statement  relating  to  the  sale  of  uranium  and 
the  transfer  of  uranium  to  Russia.  We  would  like  to  ask  you  to  tell 
us  about  that  situation  fully,  but  before  doing  so  I  would  like  to  get 
a  few  facts  regarding  yourself.  I  believe  you  were  an  officer  in  the 
United  States  Army  or  Air  Force  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  was  a  major  in  the  Air  Corps. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  the  Air  Corps.  During  what  period  of  time 
were  you  a  major? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  was  a  major  after  the  Russians  got  me  promoted. 
I  was  a  captain  to  start  with. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Where  were  you  stationed  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Originally  I  was  ordered  to  duty  on  May  4,  1942,  to 
United  Nations  Depot  No.  8  at  the  Newark  Airport,  where  we  were 
sending  Russian  lend-lease  material  to  Russia  by  boat. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  long  had  you  been  in  the  service  prior  to  that 
time  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  was  the  first  duty  I  was  given  upon  entering  the 
service.  I  was  a  member  of  the  American  Legion  and  they  needed 
me  as  a  liaison  officer. 


1  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  909 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  were  a  veteran  of  World  War  I  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  I  was  in  the  old  Eickenbacker  outfit,  in  the 
One  Hundred  and  Forty-seventh  Aero  Squadron,  under  Billy  Mitchell. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Prior  to  your  enlistment  in  World  War  II,  in  what 
business  were  you  engaged  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Merchandising  and  selling  advertising.  I  was  adver- 
tising manager  for  Euppert  Brewery,  and  Schaefer  Brewery  before 
that,  and  Piel  Brewery  before  that. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  How  long  were  you  stationed  in  NeAV  Jersey? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  reported  for  duty  on  the  10th  day  of  May  1942,  and 
when  the  Eussian  movement  was  not  making  much  progress  in  getting 
material  to  Eussia  by  boat,  we  shifted  to  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  to  fly 
the  material,  and  I  went  there  January  1,  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  the  time  you  were  stationed  in  New  Jersey,  what 
is  a  proper  description  of  your  position  and  your  outfit? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Four  days  after  I.  arrived  at  Newark  they  made  me 
acting  executive  officer  of  the  airport. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  was  your  superior  officer? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Col.  Eobert  L.  Eockwell. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  whose  direction  were  j^ou  ordered  to  shift  station  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Colonel  Eockwell  appointed  me  assistant  to  Col. 
Anatole  N.  Kotikov,  stationed  at  Newark.  He  had  a  number  of  Eus- 
sian expediters  with  him  of  the  purchasing  connnission,  and  I  was 
contact  officer  between  the  Eussians  and  (V)mmanding  Officer  Eock- 
well. After  the  Eussian  movement  became  greater  than  facilities  at 
Newark  could  afford,  and  the  boats  going  to  Murmansk  were  being  at- 
tacked out  of  Norway,  when  we  lost  21  out  of  one  convoy  of  34,  it  was 
too  much  for  lend-lease  and  they  decided  t-o  try  something  else.  We 
attempted  to  fly  some  medium  bombers  from  South  America  to  Africa, 
but  by  the  time  they  got  across  Africa  to  Tiflis  the  motors  had  to  be 
taken  down  and  they  were  not  much  use  to  the  Eussians,  and  they  were 
not  able  to  get  enough  on  boats  in  Africa  to  get  to  the  Eussia  lines,  and 
Mr.  Harriman  and  Mr.  Hopkins  of  lend-lease  had  promised  a  gi'eat 
movement  of  planes,  so  we  finally  tried  to  fly  them.  We  thought  if  we 
started  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  and  used  the  old  Gore  Field  routes  we 
could  establish  a  route  provided  the  Eussians  could  provide  a  similar 
route  through  Siberia. 

In  August  1942  Col.  L.  Ponton  de  Arce  opened  the  air  route  and  a 
few  planes  started  through.  I  have  the  shipments  and  the  number.  It 
ran  about  five  the  first  month  of  A-20's,  the  so-called  Havocs. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  "Wliat  was  the  first  month? 

Mr.  Jordan.  August  1942.  They  went  through  all  right,  and 
quickly,  and  it  was  decided  that  that  would  be  a  good  route  to  fly  them 
in  a  pipe  line.  So  we  changed  our  entire  operations  to  Great  Falls, 
Mont.,  and  started  setting  up  an  Air  Force  operation  on  Gore  Field  at 
Great  Falls. 

Col.  Eoy  B.  Gardner,  a  First  World  War  veteran,  a  flier,  my  im- 
mediate superior,  went  out  there  and  established  the  route,  and  when 
he  got  the  thing  kind  of  going  he  sent  for  the  Eussian  contingent  and 
myself,  and  General  Farthing  at  Newark  Airport  ordered  the  whole 
Eussian  movement  sent  to  Great  Falls,  and  I  had  very  special  orders, 
orders  that  gave  my  activities  priority  even  over  the  American  Air 
Force.    It  was  a  little  difficult  for  a  captain  to  get  things,  sometimes,, 


910  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

and  I  used  to  show  these  orders.    This  order  is  known  as  a  Presidential 
directive.    It  says : 

The  President  has  directed  that  "airplanes  be  delivered  in  accordance  with 
protocol  schedules  by  the  most  expeditious  means." 

Would  you  like  to  see  it  ?  That  was  from  General  Arnold  to  Gen- 
eral Frank,  and  General  Frank  sent  it  to  Great  Falls  and  suggested 
that  Captain  Jordan  "who  was  recently  assigned  to  your  station  be  ap- 
pointed*' for  the  purpose  of  expediting  the  movement. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  May  we  have  a  copy  of  that  order  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  You  may. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Before  you  were  transferred  to  Great  Falls,  did  you 
have  anyone  assisting  you  in  your  particular  duties  in  New  Jersey^ 

Mr.  Jordan.  We  had  hundreds. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  what  capacity  did  those  hundreds  of  people  work 
with  you  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Well,  more  under  the  direction  of  Colonel  Gardner, 
who  was  a  captain  at  that  time.  We  received  the  airplanes  from  the 
various  factories  and  we  treated  them  so  that  we  could  put  them  on 
the  surface  of  freighters  and  the  salt  water  would  not  corrode  the 
motors  so  that  when  they  arrived  at  Murmansk  they  could  be  used. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  understood  you  were  liaison  officer  at  Newark? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  was  acting  executive  officer,  but  directed  most  of  my 
efforts  to  seeing  that  Colonel  Kotikov  got  living  quarters  and  food 
and  automobiles  and  everything  else  they  needed,  because  we  had 
been  instructed  to  give  them  attention  and  priority  in  all  their  needs. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  any  persons  assigned  to  you  as  assistants 
purely  in  connection  with  your  work  as  liaison  officer? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.    I  didn't  speak  Russian  and  had  an  interpreter. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  was  the  interpreter? 

Mr.  Jordan.  David  Stone. 

Mr.  Tavtenner.  David  Stone? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  Imow  where  he  lives  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.  He  was  one  of  several  interpreters.  The  Rus- 
sians hired  an  interpreter  by  the  name  of  Jurist,  J-u-r-i-s-t,  and  he  was 
such  an  excellent  interpreter  that  we  gradually  used  the  Russian  in- 
terpreter rather  than  the  American  interpreter.  His  name  was  Simeon 
Jurist.  We  gradually  had  different  employees  who  were  hired  for 
the  purpose  of  assisting  us  with  the  Russians,  stenographers  and  vari- 
ous people  of  Russian  extraction  who  could  speak  and  type  in  Rus- 
sian.   Do  you  wish  their  names  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  No;  unless  some  of  those  persons  went  with  you 
to  Great  Falls.    If  they  did,  I  would  like  to  have  their  names. 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  only  one  who  went  on  to  Great  Falls  was  Mr. 
Jurist,  Simeon  Jurist. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  He  was  a  Russian  national? 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  is  an  American,  I  believe,  but  the  Russians  suc- 
ceeded in  hiring  him  before  we  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Where  is  he  now,  do  you  know? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No  ;  I  am  sorry. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  Have  you  seen  him  at  any  time  since  1943  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  never  seen  him  since,  although  I  received  a  let- 
ter from  him.    The  secretary,  who  I  believe  was  an  American,  Margo 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  911 

Stowe,  I  wanted  to  take  her  to  Great  Falls  as  a  stenographer  and 
i  uterpreter,  but  it  was  not  possible  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Wood.  You  say  you  had  a  letter  from  Mr.  Jurist  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir.    Would  you  care  to  see  it? 

Mr.  Wood.  Where  was  it  written  from  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Alaska. 

Mr.  Wood.  What  part  of  Alaska? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Fairbanks. 

Mr.  Wood.  How  long  ago  was  that? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  was  just  before  I  left  the  service  sometime. 

Mr.  Wood.  Was  he  in  the  service,  or  did  he  have  a  civilian  status? 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  had  a  civilian  status. 

Here  is  a  letter  dated  March  30,  194:o,  from  Jurist  to  me,  written 
from  Fairbanks.    I  haven't  read  it  for  some  time,  but  you  can  have  it. 

Mr.  Wood.  May  we  retain  this  letter  a  sufficient  length  of  time  to 
have  it  photostated  and  then  return  it  to  you.  Major!! 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  Here  is  another  one.  You  see,  I  kept  these  records 
in  case  you  might  need  them.    Here  is  another  one. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  the  letter  of  March  oO,  1943,  reference  is  made 
to  a  Lieutenant  Silver,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  was  liaison  officer  in  Fairbanks  between  Russians 
and  Americans  under  Major  Mortimer. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  he  stationed  at  any  time  at  Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.    He  was  always  at  Fairbanks. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  know  where  he  is  now  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  sorry,  I  don't. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  know  if  he  is  still  in  the  service  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.  I  don't. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  Lieutenant  Silver's  first  name? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Just  a  moment.  I  will  have  to  look  up  the  officers  at 
Great  Falls  and  Fairbanks. 

Mr.  Moulder.  What  is  the  date  of  that  letter  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  March  30,  1943. 

Mr.  Jordan.  His  name  was  Phillip  Silver,  assistant  supply  officer  of 
the  Three  Hundred  and  Eighty-fourth  Base  Headquarters  Squadron. 
He  is  married  and  his  serial  number  is  9564291. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  the  letter  of  April  19,  1943,  addressed  to  you 
from  Simeon  Jurist,  reference  is  made  to  Captain  de  Tolly. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Nicholas  S.  de  Tolly.  He  is  an  American  citizen, 
American  officer,  a  fine  flyer,  and  he  taught  the  Russians  how  to  fly 
our  planes. 

Ml'.  Tavenner.  Was  he  stationed  at  any  time  at  Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes ;  as  my  assistant. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Where  is  he  now^  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Military  attache  to  Moscow,  to  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge. His  great  grandfather  defeated  Napoleon  in  1814.  He  is  quite 
important  to  the  Russians.    He  made  a  hit  with  them. 

Mr.  Wood.  For  purposes  of  identification  you  had  better  identify 
those  leters,  had  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  will  identify  the  three  letters  from  Simeon 
Jurist  to  Capt.  George  Jordan,  dated,  respectively,  March  30,  1943, 
April  19,  1943,  and  September  25,  1943,  as  Jordan  exhibits  B,  C,  and 
D,  and  I  offer  them  in  evidence  as  exhibits  by  those  numbers. 


912  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Wood.  They  will  be  admitted,  with  the  understanding  that  when 
they  are  photostated  the  originals  will  be  returned  to  the  witness.^ 

Mr.  TA^•ENNER.  Major  Jordan,  describe  to  us  your  duties  at  Great 
Falls,  please. 

Mr.  Jordan,  I  think  it  would  be  easier  if  you  would  let  me  read  my 
orders,  which  I  tried  to  follow : 

1.  In  connection  with  the  movement  of  aircraft  to  U.  S.  S.  R.  through  your 
station,  it  is  directed  that  j'ou  appoint  an  officer  who  will  be  charged  with  the 
following  duties : 

(a)   Inspect  aircraft  upon  arrival,  to  determine — 

(1)  Condition. 

(2)  Status  of  regular  equipment. 

(&)   Install  special  flight  equipment  as  requested  by  Russia. 

(c)  Receive  and  store  special  flight  equipment  furnished  for  this  movement. 

(d)  Report  any  shortages  of  regular  equipment  to  United  Nations  Branch, 
Overseas  Section,  and  take  necessary  action  to  have  them  supplied. 

(e)  Furnish  United  Nations  Branch,  Overseas  Section,  with  daily  report 
covering  arrivals  and  departure  of  these  aircraft  and  status  of  those  held  on 
field. 

(/)  Coordinate  activities  of  Air  Service  Command,  Air  Transport  Command, 
and  Materiel  Command  which  affect  this  entire  movement  of  aircraft. 

iff)  Receive  and  transmit  messages  and  requisitions  from  Fairbanks. 

(h)  Coordinate  and  expedite  air  freight  movements  for  U.  S.  S.  R.  from  Great 
Falls  and  Edmonton. 

2.  It  is  recommended  that  Captain  Jordan  who  was  recently  assigned  to  your 
station  be  appointed  for  this  purpose. 

By  command  of  Major  General  Frank : 

C.  P.  Kane,  Colonel,  Air  Corps. 

Mr.  Ta\-enner.  Wliat  assistance  did  you  have  in  the  performance 
of  your  duties  at  Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  started  out  with  a  few,  and  it  grew.  The  air-freight 
movement  was  getting  heavier,  and  in  1943  important  Russian  people 
used  to  go  through  with  5  or  6  suitcases.  I  didn't  stop  them  at  that 
time  because  I  though  maybe  it  was  legitimate.  B'ut  when  they  started 
sending  the  suitcases  without  people  I  got  interested,  and  sending  50 
suitcases  M'ith  armed  couriers  didn't  seem  proper,  and  didn't  have 
diplomatic  immunity  as  far  as  I  could  see.  I  let  the  first  two  or 
three  batches  go  through,  and  inquired  of  the  State  Department  and 
the  War  Department  whether  the  bags  had  diplomatic  immunity. 
I  couldn't  get  an  answer  from  the  State  Department,  but  I  did  out  of 
the  War  Department,  and  they  said  I  was  to  be  helpful  to  the  Russians 
in  every  way. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  Do  you  have  a  copy  of  those  communications? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  telephone  calls  I  made  daily  to  the  War  Depart- 
ment are  a  matter  of  record.  The  particular  complaint  that  I  had  was 
the  number  of  suitcases  that  seemed  to  be  arriving  Avith  just  armed 
guards,  and  I  couldn't  reconcile  them  as  belonging  to  diplomatic  im- 
munity status,  and  I  spoke  to  the  security  officer  on  the  field  and  he 
agreed  with  me  that  it  looked  like  they  were  taking  advantage  of  us, 
and  maybe  we  ought  to  ask  the  Inspector  Genei-al  for  an  inspector. 

Mr.  Wood.  Who  was  the  security  officer  on  the  field  ? 

Mr,  Jordan.  Lt.  Col.  George  F.  O'Neal, 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  many  security  officers  were  on  duty  there  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  If  you  are  talking  about  Gore  Field,  Colonel  de  Arce, 
the  commanding  officer,  had  one  or  two  different  security  officers,  and 

^  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  913 

when  we  consider  the  freight  depot  where  I  was  working  was  under  a 
separate  command  that  was  under  Colonel  Meredith,  his  security  offi- 
cer was  Lieutenant  Colonel  O'Neal.  AVe  were  interlopers  on  the  field, 
and  the  Russian  movement  was  one  thing  that  grew  until  it  took  over 
the  whole  business. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  recall  Colonel  Meredith's  first  name? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Colonel  Meredith's  first  name  was  Russell,  Russell  L. 
Meredith. 

Mr.  Wood.  With  whom  did  you  carry  on  the  daily  conversations 
with  the  War  Department. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  called  Col.  W.  W.  Goodman,  who,  it  will  be  noted,  is 
mentioned  in  the  Presidential  directive  as  the  officer  I  was  to  com- 
municate with  daily,  and  Colonel  Goodman  communicated  with  the 
purchasing  agency  direct. 

Mr.  Tavexner.  Your  inquiry  relating  to  the  baggage  that  you 
thought  did  not  have  diplomatic  clearance  was  by  telephone,  or  by 
word  of  mouth,  and  not  by  written  communication ;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  went  to  Washington  for  the  purpose  of  seeing  the 
officers  who  were  my  superiors,  and  there  were  several  questions  I  had 
in  mind.  One  was  this  particular  amount  of  baggage,  and  another  was 
the  number  of  shortages  that  were  appearing  on  the  planes.  I  person- 
ally reported  to  the  Inspector  General.  I  understand  he  doesn't  re- 
member me,  but  I  told  him  about  this,  and  I  suggested  we  ought  to 
have  this  matter  looked  into.  According  to  my  diary,  I  called  on  him 
on  the  8th  of  January.  I  have  a  note  in  my  diary  on  January  8 :  "Went 
to  Washington  to  Colonel  Page's  office.''  He  was  Chief  of  the  Interna- 
tional Section.  Then  I  have  a  note :  "I  saw  General  Jones."  I  asked 
General  Jones  for  an  inspector,  and  on  the  25th  in  my  diary  I  have  a 
note  that  Lt.  Col.  Robert  H.  Dahm  from  the  Inspector  General's  Office 
appeared  at  the  field.    We  went  into  everytliing.    * 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  What  was  the  result  of  the  Inspector  General's  visit, 
or  his  agent's  visit  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  went  back  to  Washington  and  there  was  a  kind  of  a 
long  period.  In  the  meantime.  I  had  been  complaining  some  more,  and 
on  March  3  I  have  a  notation 

Mr.  Wood.  What  year  is  that? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  the  year  1944.  All  of  this  diary  is  1944.  On 
March  3  I  have  a  note  that  10  inspectors  arrived  from  General  Jo7ies' 
office.    They  went  into  everything. 

Mr.  Ta\t5nner.  Did  they  make  a  written  report  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  wouldn't  know.  It  wouldn't  come  to  me.  I  would 
never  see  that  report.  I  have  been  informed  they  did  make  a  report, 
but  I  have  never  seen  it  and  don't  know  for  certain. 

Mr.  Walter.  Do  you  know  who  the  10  inspectors  were? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  do  not,  sir.  I  have  the  names  of  some  of  the  inspec- 
tors as  they  arrived,  but  that  particular  10  I  do  not  have. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  give  us  the  names  of  those  inspectors  who 
did  appear  there  from  time  to  time,  as  far  as  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Maj.  Bernard  Hahn,  H-a-h-n,  arrived. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  When? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  think  he  must  have  been  one  of  the  group  that  ar- 
rived, because  I  have  10  inspectors  arrived  on  March  3,  then  I  have 
the  note  that  Major  Hahn  departed  on  March  17,  so  he  is  apparently 


914  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

one  of  those  who  arrived  on  March  3  and  he  departed  on  the  17th.  I 
went  to  hnich  with  him  and  knew  him  very  well. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Where  was  the  investigation  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Great  Falls,  Mont. 

I  have  a  note  April  7, 1944,  Friday,  that  a  Maj.  Fred  A.  Farrar,  air 
inspector,  arrived.  I  showed  him  around  and  introduced  him  to  the 
Russians  at  the  hangar,  and  the  next  note  says  Colonel  Kotikov  de- 
parted for  Washington.  I  think  he  was  being  annoyed  with  all  this 
inspection,  so  he  went  to  Washington  immediately. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Is  there  anything  else  you  can  report  to  us  regard- 
ing the  action  of  the  Army  regarding  your  complaint  centering 
around  the  appearance  of  the  suitcases  without  diplomatic  immunity? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Well,  sir,  the  Army  left  it  pretty  nnich  up — Do  you 
refer  to  the  Army  or  to  the  Air  Force  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Take  both.    Take  first  the  Army. 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Army  had  their  own  method  of  inspecting,  and 
I  wouldn't  know  what  their  decision  was.  The  Air  Force  I  was  more 
familiar  with.  I  can't  tell  you  which  officer  or  how,  but  I  was  told 
that  higher  authority  was  passing  on  these  things  and  that  my  job 
was  simply  to  expedite  them  and  not  to  cause  so  much  ruckus  about 
them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  tell  us  your  experience  with  the  State  De- 
partment ^  I  understand  you  reported  the  matter  to  the  State  De- 
partment. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Well,  I  went  to  Washington  on  that  trip  and  walked 
up  and  down  the  corridors  of  the  State  Department  trying  to  find 
somebody  who  would  tell  me  they  had  diplomatic  immunity.  I  was 
passed  from  one  room  to  another.  The  impression  I  got  from  the 
State  Department  was  that  I  was  being  too  officious,  and  I  would  be 
better  off  if  I  helped  expedite  the  movement  and  did  not  spend  so 
much  time  in  Washington.  So  I  decided  to  go  back  to  Great  Falls 
and  let  the  matter  rest. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  any  person  in  the  State  Department  make  such 
a  statement  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  saw  a  John  Hazard,  the  chief  of  the  entire  outfit,  and 
he  told  me  everything  was  known  in  Washington  and  that  they  under- 
stood thoroughly  what  was  going  on,  and  there  wasn't  anything  for 
me  to  worry  about ;  that  1  should  help  the  Russians  all  I  could,  and 
that  they  were  thoioughly  aware  of  everything  that  was  going  on. 

Mr.  Moulder.  What  was  the  date  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  8th  day  of  January  1944. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Could  you  determine  the  source  of  any  of  this 
material,  as  to  whether  it  was  brought  from  Washington,  New  York, 
or  various  places  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  You  mean  the  air  freight  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes.  I  am  speaking  now  of  the  suitcases.  Do  you 
know  the  origins  of  shipment  of  any  of  those  suitcases  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  On  February  28,  1944,  Major  Hayes,  of  the  American 
Air  Force  flew  plane  6052  with  two  Russians  and  3,628  pounds  of  mail 
from  Gravelly  Point.  I  asked  liim  where  the  mail  came  from,  and 
he  said  it  arrived  in  a  black  limousine  from  the  Russian  Embassy,  and 
he  flew  it  to  where  I  took  over. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  your  experience  with  suitcases. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  915 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  suitcases  started  early  in  1943  in  small  numbers, 
and  I  remember  one  officer  gomrr  through  with  quite  a  large  number 
of  suitcases  early  in  1944,  and  he  had  so  many  of  them  I  was  beginning 
to  wonder  if  I  was  doing  the  right  thing  in  my  job  to  allow  a  man 
to  take  so  many  suitcases  through.  A  notation  in  my  diary  says  Col. 
Pavel  Berizine  and  Colonel  Yakiv  came  through  with  a  large  number. 
I  think  that  amount  of  suitcases  is  what  caused  me  to  decide  that  I 
had  better  be  })repared  for  the  $64  question  if  anybody  ever  asked 
me  what  was  in  the  suitcases,  and  I  made  up  my  mind  that  the  next 
time  1  would  open  some  of  these  suitcases. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  action  did  you  take  with  regard  to  the  suit- 
cases ? 

Mr.  eToRDAN.  Well,  sir,  I  could  always  tell  when  suitcases  were  going 
to  arrive,  because  one  of  the  cargo  planes  would  be  put  on  the  line  and 
left  unloaded,  and  the  mechanics  Avould  tell  me  the  Russian  colonels 
had  told  them  to  leave  a  plane  empty  for  a  very  special  assignment. 
The  Russians  could  not  give  orders,  and  those  people  would  come  to 
me  and  say :  "The  Russian  colonels  have  asked  us  to  do  this.  Will  you 
give  the  order?''  I  would  give  an  order  for  a  cargo  plane  to  be  put 
in  readiness,  waiting  for  special  cargo. 

I  could  always  tell  that  cargo  would  arrive  in  the  middle  of  the 
night,  because  that  is  the  way  they  do  things.  The  Russians  are 
very  close  with  their  money.  They  don't  spend  anything  they  don't 
have  to.  I  used  to  have  to  pick  their  checks  up  at  the  officers'  club 
where  I  ate  with  them.  In  fact,  we  assigned  three  slot  machines 
where  the  profits  went  to  pay  the  checks  of  the  Russians. 

This  night  the  Russians,  much  to  my  surprise,  invited  me  to  Great 
Falls  for  a  chicken  dinner.  There  was  a  lot  of  vodka.  It  happened 
I  didn't  drink.  They  suggested  a  toast  to  Stalin,  Molotov,  Roosevelt, 
and  everybody  else.  I  was  suspicious,  but  I  had  left  word  at  the 
control  tower  if  a  plane  came  in  to  call  me  at  the  restaurant,  and 
a  call  came  there,  and  I  went  to  the  field  and  two  armed  Russians 
were  standing  over  the  suitcases.  One  of  them  tried  to  keep  me  out 
of  the  plane.  The  suitcases  were  black,  cheap,  patent  leather,  with 
white  rope  sash  cord  tied  around  them  and  gobs  of  red  sealing  wax 
over  the  knots.  They  screamed  diplomatic  immunity,  and  I  said: 
"That  doesn't  look  diplomatic  to  me."  I  ripped  the  cords  off  and 
opened  about  one-third  of  them.  I  had  one  of  our  own  guards  stand, 
with  a  rifle  on  his  shoulder  so  they  would  know  I  had  a  little  pro- 
tection. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  have  assistance  in  that  work  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  were  mechanics  and  freight  loaders  there.  We 
had  a  night  force.  One  of  the  reporters  told  me  they  had  found  a 
man  in  Great  Falls  who  claimed  he  was  there  and  saw  me  open  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  his  name  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Just  a  moment.  I  have  a  list  of  all  the  employees, 
their  names  and  addresses.  [Looking  at  list.]  What  I  thought  was  the 
address  is  the  date  they  joined  the  depot.  His  name  is  Marcus  McCann, 
and  he  joined  our  depot  the  first  of  March  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  spell  his  name,  please? 

Mr.  Jordan,  Marcus,  M-a-r-c-u-s,  McCann,  M-c-C-a-n-n. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Do  you  know  his  residence  ? 


916  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.  It  does  not  give  his  address.  It  gives  the  date  he- 
arrived  at  the  depot. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  permit  us  to  have  this  list  of  employees? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  certainly  will. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  it  in  evidence  and  ask  that  it  be  marked 
"Jordan  Exhibit  E." ' 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted  with  the  understanding  it  will  be 
photostated  and  the  original  returned  to  the  witness. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  to  introduce  at  this  time  copies  of  the 
orders,  dated  January  1,  1043,  and  January  9,  1943,  respectively,  as 
"Jordan  Exhibit  F"  and  "Jordan  Exhibit  G."  * 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  them  be  admitted  with  the  same  understanding. 

Mr.  Walter.  Major,  do  you  remember  the  date  on  which  you  opened 
those  suitcases? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  had  a  very  active  and  busy  life  out  there.  I  opened 
a  number  of  suitcases  on  a  number  of  occasions.  To  try  to  pin  it 
down  to  the  exact  date  is  a  little  difficult. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  didn't  note  it  in  your  diary  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No,  sir.  I  think  I  miglit  have  noted  something  like 
that  in  my  diary,  except  that  it  might  have  happened  in  December 
1943,  just  before  I  started  this  diary.  It  was  cold  enough  for  the 
fillings  to  drop  out  of  your  teeth  at  that  time,  about  20  below  zero,, 
and  I  wouldn't  have  time  to  make  notes  in  the  middle  of  the  night 
of  that  type.  I  have  no  notes  in  my  diary  of  opening  suitcases,  be- 
cause that  didn't  seem  to  me  to  be  so  important  at  the  time.  The  data 
I  have  in  my  dairy  is  dates  of  arrival  ancl  dates  of  departure  and  things 

of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  did  you  find  in  these  suitcases? 

Mr.  Wood.  The  ones  you  speak  of  that  you  opened  in  the  middle  of 
the  night,  were  they  the  first  ones  you  opened^ 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  I  had  an  envelope  in  my  pocket.  Gentlemen,. 
I  only  opened  these  suitcases  for  my  own  protection.  I  was  a  sergeant 
in  the  First  World  War  and  had  been  trained  to  be  in  a  position,  if  I 
was  ever  inspected,  to  tell  the  inspectors  the  situation  in  my  own  little 
particular  job,  and  I  was  worried  to  some  extent  over  a  long  period 
of  time  as  to  what  would  happen  to  me  if  the  FBI  or  anybody  asked 
me  what  was  in  those  suitcases.  I  made  some  notes  for  my  own  bene- 
fit. I  jotted  on  the  back  of  an  envelope  the  things  in  the  suitcases.  To 
me  it  meant  large  masses  of  folders,  and  in  these  folders  were  various 
papers  and  tilings.  I  can  read  from  my  notes  and  elaborate  as  to  what 
I  saw,  but  each  note  just  says  one  word,  and  that  one  word  to  me  means 
a  whole  suitcase. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Were  those  notes  made  at  the  time  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  The  notes  were  made  on  the  back  of  an  envelope 
I  had  in  my  pocket,  and  I  had  a  hand  flashlight.  Then  when  I  got  in 
a  hangar  where  it  was  warm  I  made  all  the  notes  on  one  piece  of 
paper.  I  will  be  glad  to  read  some  of  the  notes  to  you  if  that  will 
answer  your  question. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes,  I  think  that  will  serve  the  purpose.  Before 
that  I  want  to  ask  you  this :  I  notice  from  the  newspaper  account  of 
your  interview  over  the  radio  that  you  named  several  persons  in  the 

2  See  appendix. 
*  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  917 

State  Department  who  you  thought  were  implicated  in  irregularities 
of  one  type  or  another. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  didn't  name  anyone. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  did  not  give  their  names.  You  spoke  of  them 
by  letters. 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  was  the  interviewer's  idea.  He  said  to  call  them 
"Mr.  X"  and  "Mr.  Y." 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  may  have  had  some  good  reason  for  not  making 
public  those  names,  and  if  you  prefer  the  committee,  I  believe,  will 
hear  those  names  in  a  closed  session,  if  there  is  any  reason  why  you 
do  not  wish  to  make  them  public. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  must  again  tell  you  that  I  only  made  these  notes 
privately,  and  they  were  simply  notes  to  remind  me — You  see,  I 
opened  about  one-third  of  the  suitcases,  and  I  sometimes  would  just 
open  a  suitcase  and  note  the  general  contents  and  go  to  the  next  one, 
because  I  wanted  to  get  the  job  done  as  soon  as  possible. 

In  one  particular  suitcase  there  was  one  particular  thing  that 
attracted  my  eye,  and  I  did  open  that  suitcase  full  length  and  try 
to  examine  it,  although,  frankly,  it  didn't  mean  anything  to  me  at  the 
time.  I  would  rather,  if  you  don't  mind,  not  mention  any  names,  but 
just  tell  you  the  kind  of  general  material  that  I  saw  in  the  suitcases. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  object  to  telling  the  committee  in  closed 
session  the  information,  not  to  be  released  until  such  time  as  the  com- 
mittee determines  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Not  whatever.  I  think  I  am  doing  everything  I  can 
to  be  hepf ul,  and  I  wish  to  give  everything  I  know,  because  the  small 
piece  of  information  I  happen  to  have,  I  have  been  informed,  is  the 
key  to  other  information. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  With  that  understanding,  just  proceed  with  a 
description  of  the  material,  and  we  will  hear  in  a  closed  session,  with 
the  chairman's  approval,  as  to  the  identity  of  the  parties. 

Mr.  Jordan.  This  piece  of  paper  starts  off  with  the  word  "Notes" 
and  it  says : 

"Always  just  50  black  suitcases  each  load  with  2  or  3  couriers.  Usually 
about  3  weeks  apart. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  sorry.     Will  you  repeat  that  ? 
Mr.  Jordan.  The  top  of  the  j^aper,  as  I  had  written  it  that  night, 
says: 

Notes.  Always  just  50  black  suitcases  each  load  with  2  or  3  couriers.  Usually 
about  3  weeks  apart. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  That  is  what  you  wrote  at  the  time  ? 

Mr,  Jordan,  Yes.    I  am  reading  you  the  notes  that  I  wrote. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  that  you  wrote  at  the  time  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes;  that  I  wrote  at  the  time  to  refresh  my  memory 
later. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  vou  actuallv  make  the  w^ritten  memo- 
randum  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  was  gathered  from  three  or  four  envelopes.  I 
put  it  on  this  one  sheet. 

Mr,  Harrison.  Wlien  did  you  write  it  on  that  sheet  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Maybe  a  couple  days  after  I  wrote  it  on  the  envelopes. 
I  consolidated  what  was  on  the  envelopes. 


918  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  destroyed  the  envelopes? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  threw  them  away,  yes.  The  second  note  says :  "Pa- 
pers were  always  cut  close.*'  The  first  suitcase  I  opened  had  a  large 
book  on  how  to  ship  four-legged  animals;  how  many  sheep  and  calves 
and  veal  would  go  in  a  car ;  and  the  rate  on  shipments  of  animals  from 
every  city  in  the  United  States  to  every  other  city.  The  book  was 
about  that  big  [indicating]. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Information  similar  to  publications  put  out  by 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  railroads.  The  next  suitcase  was  full  of  infor- 
mation from  Tass.  The  next  suitcase  was  full  of  information  from 
Amtorg  Purchasing  Commission. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Wliat  do  you  mean  by  information? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Mostly  made  up  of  catalogs.  My  curiosity  as  to  those 
catalogs  was  interesting,  because  I  worked  for  McGraw-Hill  Co.  at 
one  time  and  recognized  the  names  of  many  of  the  hrms.  This  is  what 
I  mean  [producing  catalog].  This  type  of  catalog  would  be  in  the 
suitcase,  just  like  that.  Years  later  I  have  another  catalog  from  Rus- 
sia that  shows  you  what  has  happened  [producing  another  catalog]. 
There  is  the  Russian  catalog. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Give  us  the  date  of  publication  of  the  first  catalog 
you  presented. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  showing  you  this  as  a  sample.  In  other  words, 
this  is  an  American  catalog,  and  here  is  the  Russian  catalog. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Where  the  same  thing  is  reproduced? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Where  the  same  thing  is  reproduced  in  Russian,  and 
many  of  the  catalogs  were  completely  reproduced  in  Russian. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  next  note  that  I  have  here — and  at  that  time  none 
of  these  things  meant  very  nuicli  to  me.  I  didn't  know  the  meaning 
of  some  of  them.  My  next  note  says  "Panama  Canal  Commission 
Maps."    There  were  a  couple  suitcases  about  the  Panama  Canal. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  What  was  the  type  of  information  about  the  Pan- 
ama Canal,  maps  or  magazines? 

Mr.  Jordan.  They  were  mostly  maps,  and  markings  on  the  maps. 
It  looked  to  me  they  had  been  public,  and  they  could  have  gotten  them 
easily. 

My  next  note  says,  "Oak  Ridge." 

Mr.  Wood.  At  that  time  had  you  ever  heard  of  Oak  Ridge? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Xo.     I  didn't  know  what  it  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  more  about  Oak  Ridge.  What  was  the 
significance  of  that  memorandum  as  to  Oak  Ridge  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  reason  that  I  noticed  this  particularly,  and  the 
reason  I  looked  at  it  more,  was  because  it  had  a  memorandum  on  the 
front  from  the  White  House,  and  it  said  in  handwriting  on  the  White 
House  stationery,  it  said : 

Had  a  hell  of  a  time  getting  these  away  from  Groves.    H.  H. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  know  who  Groves  was? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No,  sir.    I  do  now. 

Mr.  Taat.nner.  Did  anyone  see  that  document  besides  yourself, 
that  you  know  of  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Russians  were  the  only  other  persons.  The  Amer- 
ican guards  were  standing  outside  the  door  of  the  plane. 

Mr.  Moulder.  May  I  ask  a  question  ? 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  919 

Mr.  Wood.  Yes,  sir.    Mr.  Moulder. 

Mr.  Moulder.  To  whom  was  this  note  addressed  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  been  asked  that  question  before,  and  it  is  very 
difficuh  for  me  to  remember,  because  I  didn't  really  attach  much  im- 
portance to  it ;  but  I  would  like  to  tell  you  that  something  else  hap- 
pened that  makes  me  think  I  know.  I  remember  2  or  3  days  later 
asking  Colonel  Kotikov  w^ho  a  Mr.  Mikoyan  w^as. 

Iklr.  Tavenner.  How  do  you  spell  that  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  M-i-k-o-y-a-n,  I  believe.  Colonel  Kotikov  told  me  he 
was  one  of  the  three  most  important  men  in  Russia.  I  am  sure  I  asked 
Colonel  Kotikov  who  INIikoyan  was  because  I  had  seen  the  name  and 
was  trying  to  be  cagey  with  him.     I  had  never  heard  the  name  before. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  did  you  observe  that  note  ?  Was  it  outside  the 
suitcase? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.     I  had  opened  the  suitcase. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Was  it  lying  loose  in  the  suitcase  ^ 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.     It  was  in  an  envelope  or  folder. 

Mr.  ]\IouLDER.  Did  you  have  to  open  an  envelope  to  see  this  note  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  had' to  open  a  folder,  and  the  folder  had  an  elastic 
band  around  it,  and  there  were  blueprints  and  things  in  the  folder, 
and  the  note  was  on  the  front  of  the  blueprints. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  many  folders  did  you  observe  in  the  suitcase? 

Mr.  Jordan.  They  telescope  like  an  accordion.    They  were  all  one. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  many  did  you  examine  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  looked  through  the  suitcase  perfunctorily. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  many  folders  did  you  examine  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  suitcase  was  full  of  folders. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  letter  you  spoke  of,  was  it  typewa-itten  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.     It  w^as  in  handwriting. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  was  addressed  to  a  person  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  was  addressed  to  a  person  of  some  kind. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  date  when  you  found  that  letter,  as 
near  as  you  can  tell? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  don't  know.  It  was  in  the  period  of  the  winter  of 
1943  and  1944  and  spring  of  1944,  because  that  is  when  I  started 
opening  suitcases. 

INIr.  Tavenner.  Describe  a  little  more  clearly  how  you  happened  to 
find  that  particular  letter.  Were  all  the  files  opened  in  such  a  way 
you  could  see  the  contents  of  the  files? 

Mr.  Jordan.  They  were  black  suitcases,  and  the  entire  suitcases  were 
full  of  folders.  After  I  had  opened  all  sorts  of  folders  it  was  all  the 
same  material,  practically,  so  it  didn't  make  too  much  of  an  impression 
on  me.  I  was  looking  for  morphine  at  the  time  because  we  had  been 
missing  morphine  and  I  was  looking  for  drugs.  The  maps  and 
various  things  I  saw,  I  just  made  a  check  of  every  fourth  or  fifth 
suitcase.  I  was  doing  what  we  call  in  the  Army  spot-checking.  I 
made  no  attempt  to  make  an  inventory,  and  I  only  did  this  for  my 
own  benefit,  so  that  if  anybody  ever  asked  me  what  was  in  the  suitcase 
I  could  say,  "They  were  full  of  maps  and  material  on  blast  furnaces, 
concrete  mixers,  oil  machinery,  and  so  on." 

Mr.  Walter.  When  were  these  suitcases  delivered  to  the  field  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  On  a  number  of  different  dates. 

Mr.  Walter.  This  particular  incident,  the  ones  you  opened? 


920  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  ones  I  opened,  I  can't  tell  you,  because  I  opened 
several  loads. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  mentioned  no  dates  in  your  notes  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  is  no  date  here  as  to  the  suitcases  I  opened, 
although  I  have  dates  of  arrival  of  planes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  have  that  in  your  diary  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Why  did  you  note  one  thing  in  your  diary  and  not 
the  other  thing  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Because  I  started  the  diary  in  1944  and  opened  some 
suitcases  in  1943. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  opened  suitcases  in  1943  and  1944  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  And  you  started  keeping  your  diary  in  1944? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  And  you  made  notes  about  suitcases 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  is  no  note  in  here  about  suitcases.  The  notes  in 
here  are  plane  arrivals  and  the  numbers  of  the  planes  and  the  pilots. 

Mr.  Harrison.  But  you  did  not  note  suitcases  in  your  diary? 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  were  about  a  million  pounds  of  freight  on  our 
field  all  the  time.  I  opened  so  much  different  freight  that  I  did  not 
make  a  note  of  suitcases  particularly. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  the  Russians  report  you  to  your  superior  com- 
mand for  opening  suitcases  over  their  protests  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  They  said  I  would  be  removed  immediately. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  hear  anything  from  your  superior  officers  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Never.     I  don't  think  the  Russians  reported  it. 

Mr.  Walter.  As  I  understand  you,  the  suitcases  came  at  night  and 
were  removed  immediately  from  where  they  were  unloaded  to  other 
planes  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Just  a  moment.  Sometimes  if  the  planes  had  pilots 
and  were  ready  to  go  we  would  move  the  suitcases  directly  from  one 
plane  to  another,  but  many  times  we  took  them  and  put  them  in  a 
warehouse,  and  the  couriers  would  stretch  their  blankets  over  them 
and  sleep  on  them.  One  guarded  while  the  other  slept,  and  they 
never  would  let  them  out  of  their  sight.  They  came  prepared  to  sleep 
on  top  of  the  suitcases. 

Mr.  Walter.  Then  how  would  it  have  been  possible  to  put  in  the 
suitcases  the  narcotics  you  said  you  thought  might  be  in  them? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Russians  were  alone  with  the  suitcases  at  night, 
and  we  had  been  missing  a  great  deal  of  morphine  from  our  first-aid 
kits.  We  had  stockrooms  full  of  first-aid  kits,  and  they  were  being 
rifled,  and  the  suitcases  were  in  the  same  building  and  same  rooms, 
and  I  thought  it  possible  these  couriers  were  the  culprits. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  say  you  were  attending  a  party  that  the  Rus- 
sians had  prearranged  for  you  to  be  present,  a  chicken  dinner,  I 
believe? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  there  they  offered  you  drinks  of  vodka  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  long  were  you  there  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  wasn't  exactly  a  party.  It  was  a  straight  dinner. 
We  had  to  eat  every  night,  and  we  went  together. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  921 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  far  was  it  from  the  airport  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  About  4  miles. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  you  had  left  instructions  to  be  called  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  had  a  staff  car  at  the  restaurant  with  a  driver. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  when  you  opened  the  suitcases  the  Russian  armed 
guards  were  there  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  They  were  always  with  them. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  this  particular  suitcase  where  you  found  the 
note,  you  say  the  note  was  in  a  folder  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Loose  in  a  folder  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  entire  suitcase  was  full  of  folders. 

Mr.  Moulder.  I  am  referring  to  this  one  where  you  found  a  note. 
You  said  it  was  addressed  to  someone  whose  name  you  couldn't  re- 
member, but  it  stated,  "I  had  a  hell  of  a  time  getting  this  from 
Groves."     Was  there  more  on  the  note  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  was  a  great  deal  more. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Was  it  on  one  sheet  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Two  sheets.     It  was  attached  to  some  maps. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Did  you  inspect  what  it  was  attached  to  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  some  notes  on  that. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Do  you  have  your  notes  on  that  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliat  was  that? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  a  memorandum  to  myself  to  look  up  words  on 
maps  that  are  labeled  "Oak  Ridge,  Manhattan  Engineering  Depart- 
ment or  District,"  I  believe  it  was. 

Mr,  Wood.  Had  jou  ever  heard  of  the  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  before  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Never.  The  words  I  noted  were  "Uranium  92;  neu- 
trons; protons;  energy  produced  by  fission";  and  I  had  a  note  to  look 
up  the  word  "cyclotron."  I  took  those  words  off  a  memorandum  in 
the  suitcase. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Off  of  which  particular  memorandum  in  the 
suitcase  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  is  very  difficult  to  tell  which  one.  I  took  some  of 
the  words  off  the  maps  and  some  off  the  letters  in  the  suitcase,  and 
some  came  off  the  backs.  As  far  as  I  remember,  I  put  down  words 
so  that  I  could  identify  them  if  anybody  asked  me. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  W^ere  any  of  those  words  taken  off  the  map  or 
plat  to  which  the  leter  you  referred  was  attached? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  believe  they  were  all  taken  off  maps. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  this  particular  suitcase  it  was  all  maps? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  type  of  maps  ? 

Mr,  Jordan.  They  looked  like  engineering  maps.  They  looked  like 
duplicates  of  engineering  maps,  the  kind  that  are  photostated. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  see  any  secret  or  confidential  stamp,  or 
classified  stamp,  on  them? 

Mr.  Jordan.  All  the  places  where  the  word  "secret"  had  been  placed 
had  been  cut  out  with  a  pair  of  scissors.  In  fact,  in  the  suitcases  from 
the  State  Department  there  was  folder  after  folder  after  folder  where 


y22  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

every  single  one  had  been  cut  off.  If  I  had  found  the  word  "secret," 
I  would  have  grounded  the  plane.  1  never  did  find  it,  but  the  place 
was  there  where  it  had  been  cut  off  at  the  top  and  bottom. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  spoke  of  papers  from  the  State  Department. 
Were  such  papers  in  this  particular  suitcase  where  the  letter  was 
found  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.  Agriculture  and  Commerce  and  State  each  had 
their  own  suitcases. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  about  these  suitcases. 

Mr.  Jordan.  They  simply  had  the  words  ''Commerce"  and  "Agri- 
culture." There  was  one  suitcase  on  the  Dnnetz  Siberia;  oil  ma- 
chinery; scientific  data  from  Iron  Age;  and  shipping  data. 

Mr.  Harrison.  These  notes  you  are  reading  from  now  were  made 
in  1944? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  And  were  copied  at  one  time  from  envelopes? 

Mr,  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Why  didn't  you  copy  them  in  your  diary  instead  of 
that  loose  sheet  of  paper  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  why  I  believe  they  were  written  in  1943,  be- 
cause I  didn't  keep  a  diary  in  1943. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  mean  these  notes  you  hold  in  your  hand  were 
made  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.     I  believe  they  were  made  at  the  end  of  1943. 

Mr.  Harrison.  And  you  didnH  open  suitcases  in  1944? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  did. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  makes  notes  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  one  note  in  my  diary  which  seems  to  be  of  the 
kind  you  are  asking  about.  I  opened  one  batch  of  suitcases  and 
this  is  what  I  said 

Mr.  Harrison.  This  is  a  bound  book  made  at  the  time '. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  Here  is  a  note  in  my  diary  that  says:  "C-47, 
No.  2940,  departed  today  with  3,800  pounds  of  mail,  50  suitcases."  I 
went  through  those  suitcases,  and  in  every  suitcase  there  were  oil- 
refinery  maps,  the  entire  load. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  the  date  of  that  entry  you  have  just  re- 
ferred to? 

Mr.  Jordan.  27th  of  March,  on  Monday. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  1944  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Going  back  to  your  original  memorandum,  you 
referred  to  State  Department  documents? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Describe  them  in  more  particularity. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  sorry  I  can't  give  you  more  of  a  minute  descrip- 
tion. I  just  remember  generall}-.  By  referring  to  my  notes  I  can 
remember  I  saw  a  lot  of  official  looking  photostats  that  had  the  word 
"Secret"  cut  off.  There  were  entire  suitcases  full  from  the  State  and 
Agriculture  Departments. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  did  you  know  they  were  from  the  State  and 
Agriculture  Departments  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  ran  my  hand  through  the  folders  to  see  if  the  wdiole 
suitcase  was  the  same  thing. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  923 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  there  about  the  documents  that  indicated 
to  you  they  were  from  the  State  or  Agriculture  Departments  ^ 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  heading  on  the  letterheads. 

Mr.  Tavtinner.  Were  they  letters  or  documents,  do  you  know?^ 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  guessing  now.  They  were  all  mixed  up.  They 
were  different  kinds  of  things.  I  only  opened  every  third  or  fourth 
suitcase.  If  I  had  a  State  Department  suitcase  I  would  skip  the  next 
two  or  three,  and  the  Russians  would  follow  me  and  try  to  put  the 
cords  back  together. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Proceed  with  your  notes  and  explain  everything 
they  call  to  your  attention. 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  only  explanation  I  can  give  is  that  I  simply 
jottecl  down  the  type  of  folder  I  was  looking  at  in  one  of  the  suitcases. 
To  give  you  a  minute  description  would  be  impossible. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Just  read  your  notes. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Another  load  of  suitcases  from  Aberdeen  Proving 
Ground  had  folders  on  Mexico  City,  Buenos  Aires,  Cuba;  maps  of 
the  United  States,  automobile  maps,  "marked  strangely,"  I  have. 
The  maps  were  the  kind  you  get  at  an  automobile  station.  They 
had  been  trimmed  and  cut,  and  on  the  maps  were  marked  where  our 
industrial  plants  were. 

Mr.  Wood.  You  say  they  had  marked  on  these  maps  places  where 
our  industrial  plants  were  located.  Did  you  know  that  or  ascertain 
it  later? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  mean  by  the  markings,  for  instance,  at  Pittsburgh 
they  would  have  ''Westinghouse"  and  "Blaw-Knox"  and  things  like 
that.  They  had  every  city  in  the  United  States  and  everything  was 
marked. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  report  that  to  anybody  at  the  time? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  I  told  Colonel  Gardner  and  Colonel  O'Neal  and 
several  other  officers  what  I  had  done. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  report  to  them  what  you  had  seen  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  remember  making  a  talk  downtown  at  Great  Falls, 
Mont.,  to  some  people  who  asked  me  to  tell  them  about  the  Russians. 
I  remember  telling  them  about  the  silly  things  I  saw  in  the  suitcases 
about  four-legged  animals  and  maps,  and  I  thought  my  apprehension 
about  the  suitcases  was  unfounded. 

Mr.  Harrison.  About  when  did  you  make  that  public  speech? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Early  in  1944. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Was  it  reported  in  the  local  press? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.     I  believe  the  newspaper  made  an  editorial  of  it. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Do  you  have  a  copy  of  it? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.     It  appeared  in  the  Great  Falls  Leader. 

Mr.  Harrison.  This  editorial  says  how  highly  you  regarded  Soviet 
Russia.  It  doesn't  say  you  found  these  things  in  suitcases.  Was  any 
record  made  of  your  having  made  a  statement  at  the  time  as  to  these 
things  you  discovered  in  the  suitcases? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  mentioned  the  four-legged  animals  as  an  example 
of  the  infantile  things  the  Russians  thought  were  important,  and 
that  we  were  risking  lives  to  get  through.  It  seemed  to  be  innocent 
material. 

Mr.  Harrison.  There  is  nothing  about  that  in  this  editorial. 

Mr.  Jordan.  This  covers  the  date  I  made  the  speech,  April  20,  1944. 


924  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Walter.  Were  the  usual  diplomatic  pouches  being  sent  through 
that  station  ? 

Mr,  Jordan.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  AV ALTER.  By  that  I  mean  pouches  from  Government  to 
Government  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No. 

Mr.  Walter.  None  of  them  passed  through  Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Not  that  I  know  of.  If  they  did  they  were  accom- 
panied by  a  diplomatic  courier,  which  is  different. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  What  statement  did  the  Russian  officer  make  to  you 
about  sending  this  material  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  asked  if  I  would  wait  before  opening  any  more 
until  I  could  be  instructed  by  the  War  Department,  and  he  told  me 
I  would  be  removed  if  I  opened  any  more. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  tell  us  what  occurred.  Did  you  wait  until  you 
got  instructions? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No,  sir.     I  continued  to  open  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  Did  you  ever  receive  instructions  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Never. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Proceed  if  you  have  any  further  statements  there. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Well,  I  had  just  come  to  the  part  wliere  there  were 
sealed  envelopes  from  Lomatkin.  He  was  a  police  official  we  subse- 
quently threw  out  of  the  country.  Then  they  had  long  lists  of  names, 
just  common  ordinary  names. 

Mr.  Harrison,  Would  you  object  to  filing  the  original  of  that  memo- 
randum for  the  record  ? 

Mr,  Jordan,  I  promised  to  do  that  in  another  session. 

Mr,  Wood.  In  a  closed  session  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr,  Harrison,  That  has  the  names  in  it? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Can  you  give  us  additional  light  on  matters  relating 
to  these  suitcases  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  think  I  know  what  you  are  interested  in.  I  received 
many  communications  from  Washington  by  phone  to  do  various 
things.  You  see,  we  had  around  a  million  pounds  of  freight  all  the 
time  in  Great  Falls  waiting  for  removal,  and  anything  the  Russians 
wanted  priority  on  I  had  to  give  the  order,  so  instead  of  the  piece  of 
freight  arriving  and  going  to  the  end  of  the  pile  and  waiting  several 
weeks,  by  giving  an  order  from  the  office  I  could  have  the  people  take 
that  piece  of  freight  and  put  it  immediately  on  another  plane  and  send 
it  to  Moscow. 

The  Russians  got  to  the  point  where  everything  had  priority,  so  I 
was  very  busy  much  of  that  time  trying  to  select  priority  over  another 
priority,  because  the  plane  space  was  very  limited.  Finally  it  got  so 
bad  that  I  decided  to  send  freight  on  the  medium  bombers.  We  didn't 
have  enough  C-47  transport  planes  to  carry  the  freight,  and  I  started 
sending  it  on  the  bombers.  Then  the  Russians  wanted  everything  to 
go  on  the  bombers  because  they  were  faster. 

It  was  at  that  point  that  the  Russians  inaugurated  the  practice  of 
phoning  the  Embassy  and  handing  me  the  phone  while  they  were 
talking  to  the  Embassy  and  telling  me  to  expedite  a  certain  piece  of 
freight.  So  it  was  nothing  unusual  for  me  to  be  handed  a  telephone, 
and  Colonel  Kotikov,  who  spoke  very  little  English,  would  say :  "Here. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  925 

Get  this  straight."  And  I  would  make  a  note  of  the  particuhir  piece 
of  freight  I  was  to  expedite  when  it  arrived,  which  might  be  2  weeks 
later. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  From  whom  did  you  receive  those  orders  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  General  Piskounov  or  Gromov  or  various  people  in 
positions  of  authority  talking  to  Colonel  Kotikov.  There  would  be 
something  terribly  important  about  a  certain  piece  of  freight,  and  I 
would  be  called  upon  to  do  a  special  job  of  expediting  on  a  special  piece. 

That  was  occurring  every  day.  In  one  of  the  telephone  calls  Colonel 
Kotikov  said  tlie  Embassy  had  something  very  important  that  had 
to  do  with  bomb  powder,  and  would  I  expedite  this  particular  ship- 
ment, and  I  agreed  to,  because  that  was  my  job,  to  help  them  expedite 
things.  He  had  on  a  piece  of  paper  on  his  desk  things  to  be  expedited, 
and  I  saw  the  word  "uranium"  and  what  he  called  bomb  powder  was 
actually  uranium.  He  had  it  marked  "uranium."  I  did  not  know  what 
uranium  meant  and  had  no  inkling  at  the  time  it  would  ever  be  im- 
portant. I  just  knew  that  that  particular  shipment  I  had  to  expedite. 
The  first  shipment  of  uranium  that  was  so  expedited  came  from 
Denver. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  approximate  date? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  can't  tell  you  that.  I  remember  420  pounds  came 
from  a  firm  in  Denver. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  remember  the  name  of  the  firm? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Mr.  Wood,  I  would  like  to  keep  my  memory  and  what 
I  now  laiow  separate.  I  know  now  the  name  of  the  firm  and  every- 
thing else,  but  I  didn't  know  it  at  the  time.  So  if  you  are  asking  me 
if  I  knew  then,  I  did  not  know.  I  simply  knew  it  came  from  Colorado. 
Now  I  know  the  name  of  the  firm.    Do  you  want  me  to  give  it  to  you. 

Mr.  Wood.  Is  there  any  reason  why  you  shouldn't  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.  S.  W.  Shattuck  Co.  It  was  addressed  to  Colonel 
Kotikov. 

Mr.  Wood.  Did  you  open  up  any  of  those  shipments  of  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.  They  had  armed  guards  with  automatic  machine 
guns  on  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  see  anything  about  the  shipment  to  indicate 
whether  or  not  a  license  had  been  granted  by  any  authority  to  make 
such  a  shipment? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No,  sir.  I  was  not  high  enough  up  in  the  echelon  to 
have  anything  to  do  with  the  authority  of  things.  I  was  simply  where 
the  load  came  on  the  plane,  and  my  only  importance  was  simply  that  I 
selected  the  particular  piece  of  freight  to  go  on  a  particular  plane. 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  you  make  a  note  in  your  diary  of  the  shipment  of 
uranium  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No  ;  because  it  was  not  important  to  me. 

Mr.  Walter.  Was  the  shipment  made  about  the  time  you  were 
making  the  entries  in  the  diary,  that  is,  sometime  in  1944? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Undoubtedly.  We  made  13  copies  of  everything.  I 
am  sure  the  War  Department  can  find  one  of  them. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  am  talking  about  this  shipment  of  uranium.  Was 
that  made  in  1944  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Sir,  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Walter.  The  reason  I  say  1944  is  because  that  was  when  you 
were  making  the  entries  in  your  diary. 


926  SHIPMENT    or    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  didn't  put  in  my  diary  the  reports  to  the  War  Depart- 
ment. We  covered  many,  many  details  in  our  reports  to  the  War 
Department.  The  accountability  was  in  Dayton.  When  I  signed  the 
shipments  over  to  the  Eussians,  the  Russians  had  charge. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  am  directing  your  attention  to  the  shipment  of 
uranium.     Did  you  make  a  note  of  that  in  your  diary  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No  ;  I  never  made  any  such  note.  I  never  made  a  note 
of  any  kind  that  had  to  do  with  uranium  or  anything  like  that.  I 
only  know  I  was  called  on  the  telephone  on  innumerable  occasions  and 
told  to  expedite  certain  things,  and  at  the  time  those  certain  things 
went  through  they  looked  to  me  like  anything  else.  It  happens  now 
I  know  what  heavy  water  is. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  have  no  way  of  knowing  when  that  shipment  of 
uranium  went  through  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  We  had  a  1,200-pound  shipment  that  went  through 
from  Canada.  That  is  the  one  Mr.  Hopkins  mentioned  to  me  and  said 
to  expedite  it  and  not  mention  it  to  my  superiors. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Wlien  was  that? 

Mr.  Jordan.  In  the  spring  of  1944. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  say  Mr.  Harry  Hopkins  called  you  on  the  tele- 
phone ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No,  sir,  I  will  say  it  again.  The  Russians  continu- 
ally called  their  own  embassy.  While  they  were  talking  to  their 
embassy,  they  would  on  many  occasions  hand  the  phone  to  me  and 
an  American  personality  would  come  on  the  phone  and  ask  me  if  I 
would  allow  the  Russians  to  pick  a  certain  shipment  and  expedite  that 
certain  shipment.     There  was  nothing  unusual  about  it. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  say  you  talked  to  Mr.  Hopkins  on  the  telephone 
about  this  particular  shipment? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Russian  told  me  there  was  a  special  shipment 
being  handled  in  a  very  special  way,  and  not  to  mention  it,  and  I  got 
on  the  phone.  When  I  got  on  the  phone  he  said,  "Mr.  Hopkins  speak- 
ing" and  asked  if  I  had  received  the  pilots  I  had  asked  for.  I  said  I 
had.  He  said,  "There  is  a  certain  shipment  Colonel  Kotikov  will  point 
out  to  you,  and  keep  this  very  quiet." 

Mr.  Harrison.  Mr.  Hopkins  said  that? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  When  was  that? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Two  or  three  weeks  before  the  shipment  came  through. 

Mr.  Harrison.  "V^Hiat  j'ear? 

Mr.  Jordan.  1944. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  note  that  in  your  diary  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  was  nothing  important  to  note. 

Mr.  Harrison.  How  often  did  Mr.  Hopkins  call  you  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  was  the  only  time.  The  Russians  talked  to  him 
more  often. 

Mr.  Harrison.  How  many  times  did  you  talk  personally  to  Mr., 
Hopkins  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Once. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Yet,  although  you  were  keeping  a  diary,  you  made/ 
no  note  of  it  in  your  diary  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  was  not  important. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  did  you  know  it  was  Mr.  Hopkins?    ■ 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  927 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Russian,  Colonel  Kotikov,  told  me  it  was  Mr. 
Hopkins. 

Mr.  Moi'LDER.  But  you  personally  don't  know  if  it  was  Harry  Hop- 
kins or  not ;  do  you? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes ;  I  am  pretty  certain  it  was.  It  would  have  to  be 
Mr.  Hopkins,  because  we  had  phoned  Mr.  Hopkins  2  or  3  days  before, 
asking  for  some  pilots,  and  he  asked  if  we  had  received  the  pilots. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  say  you  were  talking  to  the  Embassy? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Russian  was  talking  to  the  Embassy. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  he  told  you  someone  at  the  Embassy  whose  name 
was  Harry  Hopkins  wanted  to  talk  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Russian  colonel  said  I  would  receive  instructions 
from  Mr.  Hopkins ;  yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  What  did  he  say  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  don't  remember  exactly  what  he  said,  but  I  knew 
from  the  conversation  I  had  with  him  that  I  w^as  to  expedite  this 
particular  shipment,  and  the  particular  shipment  came  through  and 
it  was  uranium.  I  don't  think  anybody  but  Mr.  Hopkins  would  talk 
to  me  about  uranium. 

Mr.  Moulder.  I  am  trying  to  corroborate  that  it  was  Harry  Hop- 
kins, other  than  what  the  colonel  said  to  j^ou. 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  colonel  spoke  to  Hopkins  quite  frequently. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  do  you  know  that  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Because  of  the  conversations  that  he  would  have. 
When  we  needed  pilots  or  something  we  couldn't  get  from  the  Army, 
and  there  was  no  way  of  getting  them  and  it  was  impossible  to  break 
down  routine,  the  Russian  would  say :  "We  will  call  Hopkins."  And 
then  they  would  get  them. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Were  you  there  when  he  called? 

Mr.  Jordan.  On  several  occasions.    I  placed  the  calls,  probably. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  did  you  place  the  calls  for  Harry  Hopkins? 

Mr.  Jordan,  We  placed  the  call  to  the  Embassy  or  the  Purchasing 
Commission  at  Washington. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  said  he  would  call  Harry  Hopkins  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  that  you  placed  the  call  for  him.  When  you 
placed  a  call,  did  you  place  it  for  Harry  Hopkins? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No;  for  General  Piskounov.  We  would  tell  him  to  go 
see  Harry  Hopkins. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  didn't  call  Harry  Hopkins,  then? 

Mr.  Jordan.  We  made  the  call  to  the  Embassy  to  get  the  authority 
to  do  things.     It  always  came  from  Hopkins. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  are  assuming  that? 

Mr.  Jordan.  We  knew  it. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  did  you  know  it? 

Mr.  Jordan.  From  the  day  the  movement  started  at  Newark  we 
dealt  with  Hopkins. 

Mr.  Moulder.  In  an  interview  with  Fulton  Lewis,  in  response  to  a 
question  he  asked  you  with  reference  to  Hopkins,  you  said :  "He  gave 
me  instructions  over  long-distance  phone  to  expedite  certain  freight 
shipments." 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  you  also  made  the  statement,  which  is  a  very 
serious  one,  that  Hopkins  told  you  "to  keep  quiet  and  say  nothing 


928  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

about  them,  even  to  my  superior  officers,  and  not  to  leave  any  records 
of  them." 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Moulder.  So  far  in  answering  our  questions  you  haven't  spe- 
cifically testified  you  ever  had  a  telephone  conversation  with  Hopkins 
himself. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  said  a  moment  ago  I  had  a  telephone  conversation 
with  Mr.  Hopkins'. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  said  the  colonel  said  he  was  talking  to  Mr.  Hop- 
kins at  the  Embassy  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Did  you  talk  to  Mr.  Hopkins  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  telephone  was  handed  to  me  and  I  talked  to  him. 

Mr.  Wood.  Did  you  know  him  personally  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No  ;  I  never  met  him. 

Mr.  Wood.  You  never  saw  him  face  to  face  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No. 

Mr.  Harrison.  The  reason  you  think  it  was  Hopkins  is  that  he  made 
a  statement  about  pilots  that  no  one  but  Hopkins  would  know? 

Mr,  Jordan.  Yes;  and  he  did  get  them,  and  there  was  a  shortage 
of  pilots. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Do  you  know  when  Mr.  Hopkins  died  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No  ;  I  don't  know  anything  about  it. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Was  it  after  the  bomb  was  exploded  at  Hiroshima? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  sorry.     I  don't  know  a  thing  about  Mr.  Hopkins. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Of  course,  when  the  bomb  was  exploded  you  knew 
what  this  meant  about  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  did. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Were  you  still  in  the  military  service  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No. 

Mr.  Harrison.  The  war  was  still  on  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  but  my  work  was  finished. 

Mr.  Harrison.  When  the  bomb  was  exploded  and  you  realized  the 
significance  of  what  this  was  all  about,  did  you  report  it? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  spoke  to  Colonel  Gardner,  my  superior,  about  it  on 
the  occasion  of  the  dropping  of  the  bomb,  and  told  him  my  suspicion 
was  we  he  had  sent  some  uranium  through,  but  I  kept  hearing  the 
Russians  were  10  years  away  from  having  the  bomb,  and  didn't  think 
too  much  about  it. 

Mr.  Harrison.  When  did  it  dawn  on  you  that  it  was  significant? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Wlien  President  Truman  announced  the  Russians 
had  the  bomb. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Up  to  that  time  you  didn't  think  there  was  anything 
significant  about  the  White  House  telephoning  you  to  send  that 
uranium  through  and  not  tell  your  superiors  about  it? 

Mr.  Jordan.  When  you  say  uranium,  I  only  knew  it  as  a  shipment. 

Mr.  Harrison.  But  you  knew  what  it  was  after  the  explosion  of 
the  bomb  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  After  the  explosion  of  the  bomb ;  yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  have  allowed  4  years  to  go  by  before  you  said 
anything  about  it? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  haven't  come  forward  with  anything.  The  FBI 
sought  me  out.  I  haven't  come  forth  with  any  story  yet.  I  haven't 
sought  this.    The  FBI  and  others  came  to  me  and  asked  if  I  was  at 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  929 

Great  Falls  and  did  anything  suspicious  come  through,  and  I  told 
them. 

Mr.  Walter.  When  did  you  tell  them  you  shipped  the  suspicious 
boxes  through? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  said  in  the  spring  of  1944. 

Mr.  Walter.  When  did  you  leave  the  military  service? 

Mr.  Jordan.  In  September  1944. 

Mr.  Walter.  Do  you  remember  when  the  bomb  was  dropped  on 
Hiroshima  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  believe  August  1945. 

Mr.  Walter.  That  was  after  you  were  out  of  the  service? 

Mr,  Jordan.  A  year,  yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  have  just  stated  you  spoke  to  your  superior  offi- 
cer, Colonel  Gardner,  at  the  time  the  bomb  was  dropped  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  was  out  of  the  service  and  so  was  I. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Mr.  Hopkins  lived  several  years  after  that  bomb  was 
exploded,  did  he  not? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  sorry.  I  don't  know  anything  about  Mr. 
Hopkins  ? 

Mr.  MoxjLDER.  I  w^ould  like  to  ask  further  questions  about  this  tele- 
phone conversation.  Did  you  ever  place  a  long-distance  telephone  call 
to  Harry  Hopkins  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Never  did. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Did  Harry  Hopkins  ever  place  a  long-distance  tele- 
phone call  to  talk  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Not  to  me. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  stated  a  while  ago  you  had  placed  calls  for  Colo- 
nel Kotikov? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  That  he  didn't  speak  English  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  said  he  spoke  very  poor  English. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  you  say  he  told  you  it  was  Harry  Hopkins  he 
was  talking  to  at  the  Embassy  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  is  not  a  matter  of  hearsay.  You  see.  Colonel  Koti- 
kov, from  May  1942  straight  through  called  his  Embassy  two  or  three 
times  a  clay,  and  he  would  say  something  seemed  important  enough  to 
call  Hopkins. 

Mr.  Moulder.  But  you  never  had  a  telephone  conversation  with 
Hopkins  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Colonel  Kotikov  spoke  to  Hopkins  and  he  handed  the 
telephone  to  me. 

Mr.  Moulder.  He  couldn't  speak  English  but  was  carrying  on  con- 
versations with  Hopkins  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  was  carrying  on  conversations  with  the  Russian 
Embassy  in  Russian. 

Mr.  Walter.  Do  I  understand  Hopkins  was  at  the  Russian  Em- 
bassy ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  was  nothing  unusual  about  Colonel  Kotikov 
calling  his  Embassy.  He  called  several  times  a  day.  He  spoke  in  Rus- 
sian when  the  other  man  spoke  in  Russian. 

Mr.  Walter.  This  call  you  are  referring  to  was  placed  by  you  to 
the  Russian  Embassy ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Russian  contingent  had  no  authority  to  make  long- 
distance telephone  calls  on  the  field.     So  I  was  kept  busy  putting  in 


930  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

the  calls  to  our  operator.  I  would  say  I  wanted  to  talk  to  a  Michigan 
number  in  Washington,  and  I  wanted  it  to  be  collect,  because  I  didn't 
want  the  Kussians  running  up  a  bill  on  my  department.  Then  I  would 
hand  the  telephone  to  Colonel  Kotikov. 

Mr.  AValter.  That  telephone  call  you  are  talking  about  was  placed 
to  the  Russian  Embassy  ? 
Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  And  presumably  Harry  Hopkins  spoke  from  the  Rus- 
sian Embassy? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Oh,  no.  He  spoke  from  the  board,  apparently.  Koti- 
kov would  say  to  me :  "I  tliink  this  is  important  enough  for  jae  to  call 
Hopkins  again."  Wlien  we  used  the  expression  among  ourselves  "We 
will  call  Hopkins"  it  meant  we  were  pressing  the  button  of  authority  to 
get  things  done.  It  didn't  mean  myself  or  Kotikov  would  talk  to 
Hopkins,  but  we  would  start  the  chain  of  events,  and  it  would  happen 
instantly.  You  can't  get  20  pilots  immediately  when  there  is  a  scarcity 
of  them  unless  somebody  in  authority  sends  them  to  you. 

Mr.  Walter.  There  can  be  no  doubt  in  your  mind  that  this  suspi- 
cious shipment  you  saw  was  made  in  1944  according  to  your  records? 
Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  no  record  of  this  particular  shipment.     The 
Army  would  have  records. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  said  a  while  ago  you  were  certain  it  was  in  1944? 
Mr.  Jordan.  Spring  of  1944. 

Mr.  Walter.  As  a  matter  of  fact  the  record  shows  the  export  licenses 
were  granted  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  for  the  shipment  from  Denver? 
Mr.  Walter.  I  am  talking  about  three  shipments  for  which  export 
licenses  were  granted. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  What  was  the  quantity  of  uranium  in  this  ship- 
ment ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  is  difficult  for  me  to  sit  here  and  answer  questions 
about  minute  details  when  I  was  working  from  5 :  45  in  the  morning 
until  11  at  niglit  almost  daily.  We  started  in  in  January  1943  and 
worked  until  September  1944  and  much  of  this  is  telescoped  in  my 
mind  together.  It  is  difficult  for  me  to  tell  you  exactly  when,  but 
I  know  it  was  done,  and  I  know  it  went  through.  We  had  carboys 
of  heavy  water  we  could  hardly  move  that  went  through. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  many  shipments  of  heavy  water  went  through  ? 
Mr.  Jordan.  I  would  suggest  you  ask  General  Groves. 
Mr.  Tavenner.  To  your  knowledge,  was  there  only  this  one  ship- 
ment of  uranium  or  more,  to  the  best  of  your  recollection?- 

Mr.  Jordan.  To  the  best  of  my  recollection  there  were  2,500  pounds, 
roughly. 

Mr.  Wood.  In  only  one  shipment? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.     There  was  one  shipment  from  Canada  and  one 
shipment  from  xVrmy  Ordnance  and  one  from  Denver. 
Mr.  Wood.  You  recall  those  three  distinctly  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  were  so  many  priority  shipments  the  Russians 
had  that  it  is  hard  for  me  to  pick  out  the  ones  you  are  interested  in. 

INIr.  Tavenner.  Other  than  the  shipment  from  Canada,  were  all 
the  shipments  from  this  Shattuck  Co.  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  don't  think  so.     Some  came  from  Army  Ordnance. 
Mr.  Tavenner.  Some  came  from  Army  Ordnance? 
Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  931 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliat  shipping  point  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  War  Department  records  will  show  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  you  recall  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  don't  recall  these  special  shipments.    I  can't  pin 
point  them  for  you.    I  know  they  did  happen,  and  I  know  other  im- 
portant priority  shipments  happened  almost  daily.     We  have  the 
records  complete  out  there  as  to  when  and  where  and  how  they 
happened. 

Mr.  Walter.  But  there  is  no  question  in  your  mind  but  that  these 
shipments  came  from  Army  Ordnance? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Some  of  them,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Moulder.  May  I  ask  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Moulder. 

Mr.  Harrison.  I  wonder  if  you  will  give  me  that  editorial  again 
from  the  Montana  paper? 

(The  editorial  referred  to  was  handed  to  Mr.  Harrison.) 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  colonel  of  the  field  had  been  invited  to  make  a 
speech,  and  he  couldn't  make  it  so  he  asked  me  to  make  it  for  him. 
He  wrote  them  a  letter  and  said  I  would  appear  in  his  stead. 

Mr.  Moulder.  I  want  to  go  back  to  the  time  you  were  searching  the 
suitcases.  The  sheet  of  paper  on  which  you  transcribed  notes  from 
envelopes,  did  that  sheet  cover  days  when  you  were  not  keeping  a 
dairy  ?    Did  that  cover  different  occasions  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  many  occasions? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  don't  know  specificall}^ 

Mr.  Moulder.  Then  you  kept  this  same  loose  sheet  over  a  period  of 
weeks  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  has  been  folded  in  my  diary. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  were  not  keeping  it  in  your  diary,  then  ?  It  was 
a  loose  sheet  of  paper  you  kept  on  your  person  or  in  your  office  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  complete  records  of  everything  that  happened 
to  me  at  Great  Falls. 

Mr.  Moulder.  I  am  refering  to  this  one  sheet  that  covered  several 
occasions. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  kept  it  right  here. 

Mr.  Moulder.  In  that  book  there  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  you  made  those  notations  on  that  sheet  at  dif- 
ferent times  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  From  envelopes  on  which  you  wrote  while  you  were 
in  the  plane? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  that  is  correct. 

Mr.  Moulder.  In  your  interview  with  Fulton  Lewis  that  was  broad- 
cast, you  were  describing  this  occasion  and  said  that  with  the  as- 
sistance of  a  hand  flashlight  you  went  through  about  one-third  of  the 
50  suitcases,  or  around  18  suitcases  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  you  told  him  it  was  15  below  zero  at  the  time 
and  you  made  notes  of  what  you  found  when  you  went  through  the 
suitcases,  with  the  aid  of  this  flashlight.  Did  you  have  somebody 
with  you  ? 


932  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOIsnC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  Russian  guards.  There  were  lights  on  the  plane. 
I  only  used  the  flashlight  when  I  needed  it.  The  lights  on  the  plane 
were  sufficient  to  identify  the  contents. 

Mr.  Moulder.  And  you  made  your  notes  after  you  left  the  plane  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No  ;  in  the  plane,  on  the  envelopes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Then  you  transcribed  those  notes  on  a  loose  sheet? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  recall  the  origin  of  the  uranium  from 
Canada  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  only  way  I  know  was  from  a  paper  that  Kotikov 
had,  and  a  Russian  courier  came  with  the  shipment.  I  have  a  list  of 
over  500  Russians,  and  I  have  made  a  mark  after  some  of  them,  and 
opposite  this  particular  one  I  marked  "CC,"  which  means  Canadian 
courier. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  said  you  surmised  it  was  of  Canadian  origin? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Because  of  the  particular  courier  who  came  only  from 
Toronto.     I  am  looking  for  his  name. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  you  also  said  because  of  a  paper  which  the 
Russian  commanding  ofiicer  had? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  He  had  papers  on  everything,  and  I  used  to  see 
them  on  his  desk,  but  never  got  hold  of  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  see  from  his  papers  that  this  shipment 
came  from  Canada? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  believe  his  papers  showed  that,  but  I  can't  definitely 
testify  to  that,  but  the  Canadian  courier  would  clinch  it. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  How  much  was  in  that  shipment? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  think  over  1,000  pounds. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  was  the  shipment  from  Canada  received  with 
reference  to  the  other  shipments  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  To  tell  you  the  month  is  most  difficult  for  me.  It 
seems  the  shipment  was  in  the  spring  of  1944,  and  the  shipment  before 
that 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Forget  about  the  others,  but  was  this  the  first  or 
last  shipment  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  You  want  the  sequence  of  the  shijDments? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  believe  the  Colorado  shipment  was  first,  and  the 
Canadian  shipment  would  be  second,  but  I  am  hazy  on  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  there  other  shipments  received  after  the  re- 
ceipt of  the  Canadian  shipment? 

5lr.  Jordan.  The  heavy  water,  are  you  referring  to  that  as  the 
Canadian  shipment? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  carboys  of  heavy  water  came  along  later  in  sepa- 
rate loads. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  many  loads,  do  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  is  very  difficult  for  me  to  tell  how  many.  I  know 
they  had  great  difficulty  in  loading  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  not  the  shipment  of  the  Canadian  uranium 
you  were  speaking  of  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  there  shipments  of  uranium  passing  through 
your  field  which  originated  at  places  other  than  Canada  after  you 
received  the  Canadian  shipments  ? 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC   MATERIAL  933 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  believe  the  other  shipments  came  from  Army 
Ordnance. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  With  respect  to  time,  were  they  before  or  after  you 
received  the  Canadian  shipment  ?     That  may  be  of  some  importance. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  not  definite  about  that,  but  my  memory  seems  to 
be  it  was  after  the  Canadian  shipment. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  this  office  in  which  you  say  the  Russian  com- 
manding officer  had  his  desk,  and  you  had  yours  close  by,  were  there 
other  Russians  in  that  office  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  about  eight. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Any  other  Americans? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  was  the  only  American  except  the  secretary. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  was  the  secretary? 

Mr.  Jordan.  One  was  a  WAC,  Georgia  Bean,  who  lives  in  Mead- 
ville,  Pa. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  there  any  other  secretaries  you  had  who  can 
throw  some  light  on  this  subject  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  a  list  of  the  employees  who  did  the  work  out 
there,  who  actually  handled  the  business,  I  only  handled  the  paper 
work.  I  also  have  a  list  of  the  freight  that  went  through  and  the 
poundage. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  have  the  poundage  of  the  particular  ship- 
ments ? 

Mr,  Jordan.  They  are  included. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  are  not  interested  in  that.  We  want  to  And 
out  facts  about  your  statement,  and  to  corroborate  those  facts  wherever 
they  can  be  corroborated.  That  is  why  I  am  asking  you  to  give  us  all 
the  basic  information  jow  can  which  will  enable  us  to  investigate  the 
correctness  of  your  statement. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  perfectly  frank  in  telling  you  there  are  a  lot  of 
holes  in  my  statement  that  I  am  unable  to  fill  in  because  I  was  only 
in  one  spot. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  you  are  having  difficulty  in  locating  the  list  of 
employees,  you  can  give  it  to  us  later. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  will  give  it  to  you  later. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  further  questions  in  open  session  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  take  your  diary  and  go  over  it  with  one  of 
the  investigators  of  our  staff? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  will  be  glad  to.  I  have  a  list  in  the  diary  of  the 
planes  that  arrived  with  suitcases,  their  numbers,  and  the  pilots. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Your  appearance  before  this  committee  is  the  first 
time  you  have  spoken  to  any  member  of  this  committee  or  its  staff 
regarding  these  matters? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  other  questions  before  we  go  into  executive  session  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  No. 

Mr.  Wood,  The  committee  will  go  into  executive  session. 

(Thereupon,  the  subcommittee  went  into  executive  session.) 


HEARINGS  REGARDING  SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATE- 
RIAL TO  THE  SOVIET  UNION  DURING  WORLD  WAR  II 


WEDNESDAY,   DECEMBER   7,   1949 

United  States  House  of  Representatives, 

Subcommittee  of  the 
Committee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

Washington^  D.  C. 

A  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  met, 
pursuant  to  call,  at  10 :  30  a.  m.  in  room  226,  Old  House  Office  Build- 
ing, Hon.  Francis  E.  Walter  presiding. 

Committee  members  present :  Representatives  Francis  E.  Walter, 
Burr  P.  Harrison,  and  Morgan  M.  Moulder  (arriving  as  indicated 
hereinafter). 

Staff  members  present:  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  counsel;  Louis 
J.  Russell,  senior  investigator ;  Donald  T.  Appell  and  Courtney  Owens, 
investigators ;  Benjamin  Mandel,  director  of  research ;  John  W.  Car- 
rington,  clerk ;  and  A.  S.  Poore,  editor. 

Mr.  Walter.  The  committee  will  be  in  order. 

Because  of  the  large  atendance  this  morning,  the  Chair  is  going 
to  insist  that  there  be  no  talking,  and  as  little  smoking  as  possible.  The 
quarters  are  cramped,  and  too  much  smoking,  of  course,  will  make  it 
unpleasant. 

General  Groves,  will  you  raise  your  right  hand  and  be  sworn.  You 
swear  the  testimony  you  will  give  in  the  matter  now  in  hearing  will 
be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth? 

General  Groves.  I  do. 

Mr.  Walter.  The  Chair  will  state  for  the  record  that  when  the  com- 
mittee recessed  on  Monday  a  subcommittee  consisting  of  Mr.  Harrison 
and  myself  were  appointed  to  conduct  the  hearings  today,  and  Messrs. 
Harrison  and  Walter  are  present. 

TESTIMONY  OF  IT.  GEN.  LESLIE  R.  GROVES 

Mr.  Walter.  Will  you  state  your  name,  please.  General  ? 

General  Groves.  Leslie  R.  Groves. 

Mr.  Walter.  Mr.  Tavenner. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  General  Groves,  when  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

General  Groves.  Albany,  N.  Y.,  August  17, 1896. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Without  going  into  too  much  detail,  will  you  fur- 
nish the  committee  with  a  brief  resume  of  your  military  record  ? 

General  Groves.  Appointed  to  West  Point,  Presidential  appoint- 
ment in  1916;  graduated  November  1,  1918;  entered  the  Corps  of  En- 
gineers as  second  lieutenant ;  served  at  various  places  in  this  country 
and  in  Hawaii  and  Nicaragua. 

935 


936  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL. 

Had  a  considerable  amount  of  duty  in  Wasliington.  Graduated 
from  the  Army  Engineer  School,  both  courses,  Command  and  General 
Staff  College  at  Fort  Leavenworth,  Kans.,  and  Army  War  College  in 
Washington. 

Was  on  War  Department  General  Staff  starting  in  1939 ;  left  the 
General  Staff  in  July  of  1940  to  become  a  si^ecial  assistant  to  the 
Quartermaster  General  on  matters  concerning  construction.  Was  pro- 
moted to  major  on  July  1,  1940,  and  was  made  temporary  colonel  in 
November  of  1940.  At  that  time,  I  took  over  what  might  be  termed 
the  operations  concerning  military  construction  of  the  United  States. 
xYfter  the  work  was  transferred  to  the  Corps  of  Engineers,  I  went 
back  in  the  Corps  of  Engineers,  where  I  was  Deputy  Chief  of  Con- 
struction, and  our  operations  during  the  war  until  the  time  I  was  re- 
lieved in  September  1942  approximated  about  8  billion  dollars'  worth 
of  construction.  At  that  time  the  construction  peak  was  over,  although 
there  was  still  a  great  deal  of  work  to  be  done,  and  I  was  assigned  to 
take  charge  of  the  INIanhattan  project,  or,  in  other  words,  the  develop- 
ment of  the  atomic  bomb. 

I  remained  on  that  duty  until  the  work  was  turned  over  to  the  Atomic 
Energy  Commission  by  act  of  Congress  on  January  1,  1947. 

I  was  then  ordered  to  duty,  after  a  short  period,  as  commanding 
general  of  the  Armed  Forces  Special  Weapon  Project,  a  joint  Army- 
Navy-Air  command  that  was  responsible  for  trying,  to  the  best  of  its 
endeavor,  to  see  that  the  armed  forces  would  be  ready  to  use  atomic 
bombs  in  case  of  need. 

I  was  also  made  a  member  of  the  Military  Liaison  Committee  to  the 
Atomic  Energy  Commission. 

I  was  made  lieutenant  general  in  January  1948,  applied  for  retire- 
m.ent  soon  after  that,  and  was  retired  from  the  Army  on  February 
■  29,  1948. 

Mr.  Tavexner.  General  Groves,  j^ou  were  in  charge  of  the  develop- 
ment of  the  atomic  bomb  almost  from  the  inception  of  that  project; 
were  you  not? 

General  Gro\tes.  Almost  from  the  inception,  speaking  of  it  as  when 
the  serious  effort  really  started.  There  had  been  a  tremendous  amount 
of  work  done  on  it  before  that,  but  not  the  major  effort. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  remained  in  charge  of  the  project  until  after 
the  bomb  was  utilized  during  the  war  ? 

General  GRO^TS.  Yes,  and  for  a  considerable  time  after  that. 

Mr.  Ta^'enner.  General  Groves,  the  committee  realizes  that  a  man 
in  a  responsible  position  such  as  the  one  you  occupied  during  the 
development  of  the  atomic  bomb  must  have  secured  a  great  deal  of 
information  concerning  the  atomic  bomb  which  raises  questions  of 
national  security,  and  if,  in  the  asking  of  these  questions,  it  occurs  to 
you  that  we  have  gone  beyond  the  bounds,  and  that  national  security 
is  involved,  you,  of  course,  will  say  so. 

General  Groat^s.  I  won't  hesitate  at  all. 

Mr,  Ta's^nner.  And  in  that  event  we  would  like  to  hear  that  testi- 
mony in  a  closed  session.  The  committee  also  realizes  that,  with  all 
the  time  that  has  elapsed  since  the  occurrences  we  desire  to  speak  of, 
you  may  find  it  necessary  to  refresh  your  memory  by  reference  to 
documents.  If  that  is  true,  we  want  you  to  know  you  shall  have  an 
opportunity  to  examine  those  documents. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  937 

General  Groves.  I  have  no  document  with  me,  because  I  didn't  know 
what  you  were  going  to  ask  me. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  As  you  know,  General,  there  has  been  a  great  deal 
of  publicity  in  the  papers  recently  concerning  certain  statements 
made  by  Maj.  George  Racey  Jordan,  formerly  attached  to  the  United 
States  Army  at  Gore  Field,  Great  Falls,  Mont.  In  the  light  of  these 
public  accusations,  the  counnittee  conceived  it  to  be  its  duty  to  make 
public  certain  facts  which  were  ascertained  from  an  investigation 
started  in  1948,  and  also  to  obtain  first-hand  such  evidence  as  Major 
Jordan  was  able  to  produce  before  this  committee. 

Major  Jordan  said  in  his  testimony  here  that  uranium  had  been 
shipped  from  the  United  States  to  Soviet  Russia  during  the  period 
the  United  States  was  engaged  in  the  actual  task  of  developing  the 
atomic  bomb.  Will  you  tell  the  committee,  please,  how  many  ship- 
ments of  uranium  to  Soviet  Russia  actually  took  place,  within  your 
knowledge  ? 

General  Groves.  Within  my  knowledge  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Or  from  knowledge  acquired  by  you. 

General  GR0\Tis.  Knowledge  acquired  at  the  time  or  since  then? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Both. 

General  Groves.  All  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  First  tell  us  how  many  shipments  were  made,  from 
knowledge  acquired  by  you,  regardless  of  the  date  that  you  obtained 
that  knowledge. 

General  Groves.  As  far  as  I  know,  there  was  a  shipment — at  least, 
I  believe  this  to  be  the  case.  I  don't  know  that  the  shipment  was 
actually  made.  I  wasn't  there;  but,  as  far  as  we  could  determine  at 
the  time,  a  shipment  of  200  pounds,  plus  or  minus,  of  uranium  oxide 
went  through.  I  don't  know  whether  this  was  uranium  oxide  or  not. 
The  Russians  used  different  names  for  it.  But,  as  far  as  I  could  tell, 
it  was  uranium  oxide. 

There  was  also,  at  the  same  time,  a  shipment  of  220  pounds  of  nitro- 
urano,  which  is  a  very  complex  uranium  salt.  That  shipment,  as  far 
as  I  know,  went  through  in  the  spring  or  late  winter  of  1943.  It 
started  with  a  letter  of  request  from  the  Russians  and  various  verbal 
requests  which,  as  far  as  I  have  been  able  to  determine,  were  made 
to  the  lend-lease  organization.  There  was  one  letter  that  I  have  seen, 
signed  by  a  Russian  named  Fomichev,  and  I  think  you  have  a  record 
of  that.  That  letter  also  said  that  they  would  later  ask  for  8  tons 
of  uranium  oxide  and  for  8  tons  of  uranium  chloride. 

Tliis  shipment  went  through,  as  far  as  I  have  been  able  to  deter- 
mine, in  this  way :  I  believe,  as  I  say,  that  it  went.  It  was  placed 
through  a  firm  in  New  York  City  called  Chematar.  The  letter  was 
signed  by  a  man  named  Rosenberg.  Apparently  they  were  acting  for 
the  Russian  purchasing  agency,  either  Amtorg  or  the  other  purchasing 
agency. 

JNIr.  Tavenner.  May  I  interrupt  you  just  there?  How  many  ship- 
ments were  there  in  all  ? 

General  Groves,  I  don't  know,  because  we  don't  know  how  many 
leaked  through.  The  ones  I  have  heard  of  are  these,  and  then  there 
has  been  a  great  deal  of  reference  to  two  later  shipments  of  somewhere 
in  the  vicinity  of  1,000  pounds  of  oxide  which  were  supposed  to  have 
originated  in  Canada  and  been  shipped  through  Great  Falls.    But  I 


938  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

cant'  find  any  record  that  we  knew  of  that  at  the  time  or  later,  until 
certain  things  had  been  said  before  this  committee. 

So  that  the  only  shipments  I  have  knowledge  of  that  were  actually 
made — I  am  not  talking  about  attempts  to  get  shipments  through — 
were  these  two,  one  of  200  pounds  and  one  of  220  pounds.  There  was 
an  attempt  to  get  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal,  which,  as  far  as  I  know, 
was  never  obtained. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Let  us  get  back  to  the  shipment  of  the  quantity  sold 
to  the  Russians  through  the  S.  W.  Shattuck  Chemical  Co.  of  Denver. 
The  records  we  have  obtained  from  the  State  Department  show  that 
that  sale  took  place  on  March  23,  1943,  or  at  least  a  license  for  its 
export  was  issued  by  the  Lend-Lease  Administration  at  that  time. 
Will  you  proceed  and  give  us  all  the  details  that  you  are  acquainted 
with  relating  to  that  shipment,  which  I  believe  was  the  first  shipment? 

General  Groves.  As  far  as  we  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

General  Groves.  That  shipment  was  urged  by  the  Russians  con- 
stantly over  a  considerable  period.  There  was  no  way  they  could 
obtain  this  material  without  tne  support  of  the  United  States  authori- 
ties in  one  way  or  another.    They  had  to  have  an  export  license. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  first 
acquire  knowledge  that  the  Russians  desired  that  shipment  ? 

General  Groves.  I  should  say  that  it  was  sometime  along  probably  in 
February  of  1943.  We  knew  that  prior  to  that  time  the  Russians  were 
engaged  in  espionage  on  this  project.  I  knew  it  personally,  I  should 
say,  within  about  2  weeks  or  a  month  from  the  time  I  took  control. 
In  this  instance  the  approach  was  always  made  to  various  subordi- 
nates in  my  organization  through  subordinates  in  lend-lease. 

Mr.  Walter.  Was  that  at  Oak  Ridge,  General  ? 

General  Groves.  No  ;  that  was  in  Washington.  Oak  Ridge  at  that 
time  was  not  established  as  an  operation.  The  Manhattan  District, 
when  it  was  established,  was  established  in  New  York  City,  and  in 
July  1942  it  was  so  named.  In  August  1943,  approximately,  it  was 
moved  to  Oak  Ridge  as  the  headquarters.  I  believe  that  is  the  correct 
date. 

Mr.  Walter.  And  at  that  time  was  Oak  Ridge  operating  ? 

General  Groves.  Oak  Ridge  was  under  construction.  As  to  operat- 
ing, whether  we  were  producing  any  material,  I  would  say  "No,"  but 
that  is  from  memory.  That  is  an  easy  date  to  find  out,  as  to  when 
the  first  material  was  produced,  but  I  would  say  offhand  it  would  have 
been  considerably  later  than  that. 

Mr.  Walter.  Sometime  in  1944,  would  you  say  ? 

General  Groves.  Yes ;  at  least  1944  before  we  started  to  produce  any 
material  that  would  be  suitable  for  use  in  the  bomb.  The  first  electro- 
magnetic unit  was  finished  sometime  early  in  1944,  as  I  remember.  It 
is  an  easy  date  to  find.  The  gaseous  diffusion  plant  did  not  go  into 
operation  until  about  April  1945. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  understood  you  to  say  it  had  come  to  your  attention 
that  there  had  been  some  efforts  at  espionage  that  you  knew  of  prior 
to  the  time  of  the  Russians  desiring  uranium.  Did  I  correctly  under- 
stand you  ? 

General  Groves.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Explain  further,  please. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  939 

General  Groves.  Well,  I  will  have  to  be  excused  for  a  minute  while 
I  check  on  this  Presidential  directive. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  is  the  date  of  that  directive? 

General  Groves.  The  Department  of  the  Army  circular  is  dated 
August  11, 1948.     The  directive  was  August  5, 1948. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  would  like  to  inform  you.  General,  that  this  morning 
I  conversed  with  one  of  the  Secretaries  of  the  Army  and  was  informed 
that  that  directive  had  been  rescinded  and  a  new  one  issued  shortly 
after  Mr.  Forrestal  left  the  Department  of  the  Army. 

General  Groves.  Well,  I  asked  yesterday  to  obtain  the  latest  in- 
structions, and  this  is  what  was  handed  to  me.  Unless  I  could  see  a 
copy  of  it,  I  would  have  to  be  bound  by  this,  as  an  officer  of  the  Army. 

The  President's  directive  said  this :  "*  *  *  no  investigative  data 
of  any  type,  whether  relating  to  loyalty  or  other  aspects  of  the  in- 
dividual's record,  shall  be  included  in  the  material  submitted  to  a 
congressional  committee."  I  think  that  is  the  only  thing  that  is 
applicable;  and,  subject  to  that,  if  you  can  give  me  your  question 
again,  I  think  I  can  maybe  answer  it  in  part. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  asked  you  to  explain  the  efforts  at  espionage  to 
which  you  referred  as  your  having  had  knowledge  of  at  the  time  this 
request  by  the  Russians  was  made  for  the  shipment  of  uranium. 

General  Gro\-es.  There  were  efforts,  very  serious  efforts,  made  at 
Berkeley,  Calif.,  of  which  I  believe  your  committee  has  the  complete 
story.  Insofar  as  it  has  been  published,  I  have  found  nothing  at 
variance  with  my  knowledge  of  the  facts  in  that  case. 

There  were  certain  efforts  made  at  Chicago,  but  those  were  discov- 
ered at  a  later  date.  There  were  efforts  being  made — at  least,  efforts 
that  we  were  suspicious  of — ^that  were  occurring  in  New  York  City 
at  that  time  or  a  trifle  later  than  that.  We  had  deep  suspicions  about 
various  efforts  that  were  made.  In  other  words,  we  had  enough  evi- 
dence of  espionage  to  convince  any  intelligent,  prudent  man  that 
espionage  was  going  on ;  that  it  was  being  carried  on  under  the  direc- 
tion of  officials  of  the  Russian  Embassy,  and  that  every  effort  would 
be  made  by  them  to  discover  what  we  were  doing. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  committee  is  familiar  with  the  situation  you 
describe  as  existing  at  Berkeley,  Calif.  As  to  the  other  matters,  do 
you  consider  that  further  information  comes  within  the  purview  of 
restricted  data? 

General  Groves.  No.  I  think  that  you  have  also  had  testimony 
concerning  the  situation  at  Chicago. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

General  Groves.  That  developed  a  little  bit  later  than  this,  as  I 
recall.  You  have  the  exact  dates.  A  great  deal  of  it  has  been  pub- 
lished in  the  papers.  There  again,  I  found  nothing  that  I  noticed 
that  was  at  variance  with  the  facts. 

You  may  recall  that  at  the  time  I  testified  in  executive  session  there 
was  a  considerable  dispute  between  myself  and  various  members  of 
the  committee  as  to  the  identity  of  one  particular  man  at  Chicago,  and 
I  believe  that  was  straightened  out  to  your  satisfaction — that  there 
was  no  question  as  to  who  it  was.  Other  than  that,  I  know  of  no  case 
that  I  have  been  made  aware  of  where  the  committee,  with  respect  to 
Russian  espionage,  has  made  known  to  me  anything  that  was  not 
correct,  in  my  opinion ;  and  that,  I  felt  at  the  time,  was  rather  minor, 


940  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

in  that  it  was  a  case  of  two  men  known  to  be  guilty,  and  just  a  question 
of  whether  one  was  a  little  more  guilty.  You  thought  he  was.  I 
didn't  think  he  was  that  bad,  but  he  was  still  so  bad  and  black  m  his 
disloyalty  to  this  country  that  it  didn't  make  much  difference.  It  is 
like  a  murderer  who  committed  29  murders  against  one  who  com- 
mitted   30.  ,-,.■,       1  •  ^1   •  XT      X 

As  to  the  espionage  in  New  York,  I  don't  think  that  is  anything  that 
should  be  discussed  in  public  hearings  because  I  don't  believe  you  have 
developed  that  as  fully  as  you  may  wish  to  do  so,  and  I  am  afraid  I 
would  spoil  your  development  if  I  talked  about  it. 

Mr.  TAM3NNER.  Havc  you  answered  the  question  as  to  when  the 
Manhattan  Engineering  District  first  learned  of  the  Russian  request 

for  uranium?  ,    ,  ^     •     -r.  i  n 

General  Groves.  No.  I  said  that  ]t  was  probably  m  February  ot 
1943.  As  to  how  I  found  out,  various  people  in  Lend-Lease,  particu- 
larly, as  I  recall,  General  Wesson  and  Mr.  Moore,  were  in  touch  with 
Capt.  Alan  Johnson  of  my  office  about  the  shipments  of  these  materials. 
They  were  also  in  toucl/at  various  times  with  representatives  of  the 
Manhattan  project's  offices  in  New  York,  and  I  believe  Colonel  Cren- 
shaw and  Captain  Merritt  were  the  ones  there,  and  I  believe  you  have 
heard  them  and  know  their  stories.  Just  when  it  was  brought  to  my 
attention,  I  don't  know,  but  I  am  reasonably  certain — in  other  words, 
a  thousand  to  one — that  Captain  Johnson  reported  to  me  this  was 
going  on,  and  I  told  him  there  was  nothing  doing,  we  were  not  going 
to  permit  it. 

That  word  got  to  Lend-Lease  and  General  Wesson  called  me  on 
the  telephone.  I  know  there  were  many  telephone  calls  between  Gen- 
eral Wesson  and  myself  on  that  subject.  There  was  a  great  deal  of 
pressure  being  brought  to  bear  on  Lend-Lease,  apparently,  to  give  the 
Russians  everything  they  could  think  of.  There  was  a  great  deal 
of  pressure  brought  to  give  them  this  uranium  material. 

As  far  as  I  could  tell  with  reference  to  these  two  shipments,  the 
200  pounds  and  220  pounds,  the  shipment  was  either  made  before  I 
learned  of  it  personally  and  could  stop  it,  or  it  was  so  far  along  I 
couldn't  stop  it  without  attracting  undue  attention  to  the  fact  it  was 
being  shipped.  I  believe  it  was  the  latter.  In  other  words,  various 
things  that  had  been  said  and  done,  and  the  promises  that  had  been 
made  by  Lend-Lease,  were  such  that  it  would  have  been  adverse  to 
our  security,  our  desire  to  keep  the  project  under  cover,  to  have  at 
that  time  taken  it  away  from  the  Russians.  That,  as  far  as  I  know, 
is  the  correct  analysis  of  the  situation.  It  was  after  that  time  that 
other  efforts  were  made  to  obtain  material. 

I  know,  for  example,  that  I  approved  the  action  of  Lend-Lease  in 
approving  certain  materials  for  shipment,  I  think  in  the  amount  of 
about  500  pounds  each  of  various  compounds,  sometime  in  the  spring 
of  that  year. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Just  one  moment.  General  Groves.  This  first  ship- 
ment you  told  us  about,  was  it  actually  axDproved  by  the  Manhattan 
Enginering  District  ? 

General  Groves.  That  is  something  I  can't  find  out,  whether  it  was 
actually  approved  or  not.  I  have  given  you  the  story  of  what  could 
have  happened.  Either  it  was  approved  in  advance  and  was  so  far 
along  it  could  not  be  stopped  without  injuring  our  security,  or  it  was 
already  gone  when  I  learned  of  it.    I  think  it  was  the  first. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  941 

Mr.  Moulder.  That  was  200  pounds  ? 

General  Grov-es.     Two  hnndred  pounds  uranium  oxide  and  220  i 

pounds  nitro-urano. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner,  By  ''injuring  our  security"  do  you  mean  tipping  off 
the  Russians  as  to  the  importance  of  the  materials  ? 

General  Groves.  Exactly.  And  I  knew  it  not  only  would  tip  off  the 
Russians,  but  would  create  in  Washington  a  great  deal  of  interest  in 
why  we  were  able  to  stop  the  shipment  to  Russia,  and  it  would  result 
in  more  people  in  Washington  talking  about  something  they  had  no  ";.■ 

business  to  talk  about. 

I  believe  there  were  two  units  of  500  pounds.     You  will  find  in  .  • 

Lend-Lease  a  statement  that  I  approved  that  shipment.    I  believe  that  •,, . 

is  correct.     At  the  time  the  shipment  was  approved  we  knew  they  fv 

couldn't  get  that  material. 

Mr.  Walter.  Was  that  the  shipment  identified  by  the  license  No. 
1643180? 

General  Groves.  I  can't  answer  as  to  that.  It  was  a  shipment  of 
500  pounds  of  each  of  two  different  compounds,  one  of  which  I  think 
was  oxide  and  the  other  nitrate. 

Mr.  Walter.  Five  hundred  pounds  black  uranium  oxide  and  500 
pounds  uranium  nitrate  ? 

General  Groves.  That  would  be  the  one. 

Mr.  Walter.  How  bulky  a  package  would  500  pounds  of  black 
uranium  oxide  be? 

General  Groves.  It  wouldn't  be  very  bulky,  I  don't  think,  but  I  would 
have  to  look  it  up.  I  don't  know  what  the  specific  gravity  was,  but 
I  would  say  it  would  be  a  little  lighter  than  iron  in  the  oxide  form, 
perhaps  25  percent  lighter  than  iron,  so  it  would  be  rather  a  small 
package. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Referring  again  to  this  first  shipment,  had  any 
arrangement  been  made  prior  to  that  time  or  about  that  time  by  which 
the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  would  be  notified  of  any  request 
that  the  Russian  Government  would  make  regarding  the  shipment  of 
uranium? 

General  Groves.  Yes.  There  had  been  arrangements  made  at  that 
time.  If  you  will  recall  the  dates,  we  started  in  September  of  1942, 
and  this  was  in  January  of  1943,  and  it  was  not  possible  to  put  into  !•• 

operation  all  the  safeguards  that  we  wanted  to  put  in  and  did  put  in  P 

later.  That  was  handled  througli  a  junior  officer  in  New  York  until 
such  time  as  all  the  things  could  be  cleaned  up. 

To  go  on  with  the  two  500-pound  lots,  I  think  it  is  important  to 
realize  that  at  that  time  we  didn't  feel  there  were  any  such  materials 
on  hand.  If  there  were,  we  wanted  to  know  about  it.  We  wanted  to 
know  if  the  Russians  could  fulfill  this  order  or  get  it  filled.    We  wanted  ?;. 

to  know,  first,  if  we  had  overlooked  any  supply  of  uranium  in  this  |v... 

country;  and,  second,  we  wanted  to  know  if  any  was  slipping  out  of 
our  hands,  and  we  thought  if  the  Russians  could  find  it  we  wanted  to 
know  it.  We  had  no  expectation  of  permitting  that  material  to  go  out 
of  this  country.    It  would  have  been  stopped. 

You  have  received  a  memorandum  from  Mr.  Gullion  of  the  State 
Department  dated  June  11,  1948.  and  I  would  like  to  ask  you  to  insert 
in  the  record  at  this  place  the  last  paragraph  on  page  11  of  that 
enclosure,  because  I  believe  it  is  very  pertinent  to  this  question  of  the 
500  pounds. 


942  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Have  you  found  it  ? 
Mr.  Russell.  Yes. 

General  Groves.  Will  you  read  it,  or  do  you  want  me  to  read  it? 
It  winds  up  with  the  statement  that  General  Wesson  smiled. 
Mr.  Russell  (reading)  : 

A  curious  development  on  this  entire  matter  occurred  recently  when  Mr. 
Fomicliev  called  Mr.  Hoopes  and  stated  that  in  view  of  the  lapse  of  time  since 
the  submission  of  export  license  applications  for  iirano-uranic  oxide  and  uranium 
nitrate,  the  Soviets  were  now  having  difficulty  in  locating  a  source  of  supply. 
Mr.  Hoopes  communicated  this  to  General  Wesson,  who  only  smiled. 

General  Groves.  I  think  that  shows  the  result  of  the  work.  That  is 
from  the  Lend-Lease  chronological  diary,  as  I  undei^tand  it. 

With  respect  to  the  uranium  metal,  the  25  pounds  at  that  time  were 
still  authorized.  We  didn't  stop  their  shipment  for  a  very  good  reason. 
We  were  anxious  to  know  if  anybody  in  this  country  knew  how  to 
make  uranium  metal.  We  had  been  unable  to  make  it  successfully  up 
to  that  time,  and  if  anybody  could  make  it  we  wanted  to  know  how  he 
did  it  and  whether  he  could  make  it  for  us  if  he  could  make  it  for 
the  Russians.  We  were  willing  that  the  Russians  have  25  pounds,  if 
we  couldn't  stop  it,  on  the  ground  that  it  would  be  worth  more  than 
that  to  us  to  find  out  how  to  make  uranium  metal.  As  you  know,  we 
did  find  it  out  later,  at  a  terrific  amount  of  delay  and  trouble.  We 
would  have  loved  to  find  it  out  at  that  time  without  so  much  trouble. 

From  the  spring  of  1943  no  shipment  went  to  Russia  tnat  we  knew 
of  at  the  time  or  since  then  until  certain  testimony  was  brought  out 
before  this  committee.  Then,  for  the  first  time,  I  became  aware  of  the 
shipments  that  had  been  referred  to  as  having  come  originally  from 
Canada. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  second  shipment  to  which  you  have  re- 
ferred  

General  Groves.  You  mean  the  500  pounds? 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Yes. 

General  Groves.  It  was  never  made. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  was  never  actually  made  ? 

General  Groves.  No.  They  never  found  the  material.  So  that 
checked  with  what  we  had  discovered,  or  thought  we  knew,  that  it 
was  not  available. 

I  think  it  is  important  for  you  to  realize  that  for  some  20  years 
prior  to  the  war  an  average  of  more  than  100  tons  of  uranium  oxide 
were  used  commercially  every  year.  It  was  in  the  hands  of  chemical 
supply  houses  in  small  lots  all  over  the  country.  That  is  the  reason  I 
believe  the  Russians  were  able  to  find  these  small  quantities  of  200  and 
220  pounds,  and  those  are  small  quantities. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  As  a  basis  for  further  questions  relating  to  those 
shipments,  and  for  the  purpose  of  clearing  the  record,  the  files  fur- 
nished the  committee  by  the  State  Department  reflect  that  on  January 
29,  1943,  Mr.  W.  C.  Moore  in  the  office  of  the  Lend-Lease  Administra- 
tion received  a  letter  signed  by  N.  S.  Fomichev,  in  charge  of  chemicals 
for  the  Government  Purchasing  Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union  in 
the  United  States  of  America,  in  which  Fomichev  stated  that  he  had 
just  received  a  request  from  the  U.  S.  S.  R.  for  25  pounds  of  uranium 
metal,  220  pounds  of  uranium  oxide,  and  200  pounds  of  uranium 
nitrate,  and  requested  that  the  products  mentioned  be  shipped  to  the 
Soviet  Union  on  the  first  available  ship. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  943 

On  February  15,  1943,  Mr.  Moore  replied  to  Mr.  Fomichev  that  his 
office  had  been  informed  that  uranium — 
is  a  critical  item  and  its  use  is  strictly  limited  in  the  United  States. 
Moore  stated  that — 

*  *  *  in  allocating  our  limited  supply  of  this  material  we  must  consider  only 
the  most  vital  applications.  In  order  that  our  Government  may  make  a  decision 
favorable  to  your  request,  may  I  suggest  that  you  support  it  with  a  precise 
statement  as  to  its  operational  use. 

On  March  6, 1943,  Hermann  Rosenberg,  of  Cheraatar,  Inc.,  who  acted 
as  a  broker  in  the  first  sale  of  uranium  to  the  Russians,  wrote  to  Mr. 
Moore  and  stated : 

We  have  reported  to  you  during  our  today's  telephone  conversation  the  fol- 
lowing business  which  is  set  to  be  transacted  and  have  noted  that  we  are  per- 
mitted to  transact  same. 

Mr.  Rosenberg  then  quotes  the  uses  to  which  the  uranium  com- 
pounds are  to  be  placed  and  indicutts  tluit  liie  supplier  is  the  S.  W. 
Shattuck  Chemical  Co.,  of  Denver,  Colo.,  and  that  the  purchaser  is 
the  Government  Purchasing  Connuission  of  the  Soviet  Union  in  the 
United  States  of  America.    The  last  paragraph  stated : 

We  trust  that  this  is  the  information  you  require  and  thank  you  for  your 
statement  that  you  will  treat  same  strictly  confidential. 

There  are  several  other  items  of  interest  regarding  this  particular 
transaction  which  will  be  inserted  in  the  record  at  a  later  date.  How- 
ever, one  memorandum  is  of  particular  interest,  which  states  as  follows : 

Mr.  Fomichev,  of  the  Government  I'urchasing  Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union, 
called  to  say  that  beside  the  Chematar  Co. — 

that  is,  Mr.  Rosenberg's  company — 

New  York  City,  he  had  another  source  of  uranium  metal.  This  was  the  Manu- 
facturers Chemical  Co.,  New  York  City,  which  could  supply  the  metal  immediately, 
apparently  out  of  stock. 

Quoting  further  from  that  letter : 

It  appears  that  "WPB  authorization"  is  necessary  if  a  legitimate  transaction 
is  to  be  accomplished,  otherwise  the  metal  would  have  to  be  purchased  on  the 
black  market. 

General  Groves,  do  you  know  anything  about  black  marketing  in 
uranium  ? 

General  Groves.  No.  I  never  engaged  in  it,  and  I  think  I  probably 
bought  more  than  anyone  else  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  had  to  compete  with  the  Russians,  who  were 
also  attempting  to  obtain  it.  Do  you  have  any  knowledge  of  any 
character  relating  to  black-market  dealings  of  anyone  else  in  uranium  ? 

General  Groves.  I  can't  recall  any,  but  I  know  of  one  individual  who 
would  have  engaged  in  it  if  he  possibly  could  have. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  that  is  a  rather  indefinite  statement. 

General  Groves.  We  wouldn't  have  engaged  in  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  learn  of  any  black  market  transactions  ? 

General  Groves.  I  can't  recall  of  any,  and  I  think  the  reason  was 
that  there  wasn't  any  uranium  in  the  country  to  amount  to  anything. 
It  was  very  small.  You  could  pick  up  5  or  10  pounds,  something  of 
that  kind,  but  you  couldn't  get  anything  large  enough  to  be  of  value. 

Mr.  Walter.  At  that  time  were  you  making  every  effort  to  get  all 
the  uranium  available'^ 


944  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

General  Groves.  Yes,  sir.  We  started  on  that  basis  as  soon  as  the 
Army  took  over  the  project.  That  was  the  first  thing  done.  The 
question  is  raised,  if  you  are  trying  to  get  material  by  the  ton,  will  you 
l3uy  it  by  the  half  ounce,  if  you  have  to  have  it  by  the  ton  to  be  of 
value. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  spoke  of  a  shipment  made  from  Canada. 

General  Groves.  Yes. 

Mr.  TA^^:xNER.  Rather,  the  origin  was  Canada,  but  the  shipment 
was  made  through  Great  Falls  ? 

General  Groves.  That  is  what  I  have  been  told. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  you  first  learn  that  that  shipment  had 
been  made  ? 

General  Gro\t:s.  I  believe,  although  I  am  not  positive,  I  believe 
that  the  first  inkling  of  that  came  as  a  result  of  some  work  of  the 
House  Un-American  Activities  Committee. 

(Representative  Moulder  arrives  in  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  first  learned  of  it  from  this  committee? 

General  Groves.  Yes;  in  a  hearing  or  from  one  of  your  investiga- 
tors. I  believe  the  first  inkling  came  from  the  committee  or  the 
committee  staff,  who  naturally  would  ask  me  what  I  knew  about  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  j^ou  subsequently  make  an  investigation  to  de- 
termine whether  that  was  correct  ? 

General  Gro^tss.  No  ;  I  don't  believe  so,  because  by  that  time  I  was 
no  longer  responsible  for  atomic  bomb  matters.  I  had  no  staff.  I 
believe  at  that  time  I  was  retired  and  had  no  staff  of  any  kind. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  this  sale  of  uranium  the  transportation  of 
which  originated  in  Canada — that  is,  500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide 
and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate — sold  to  the  Russians  by  the 
Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp,  through  the  Chematar  Co.  of 
New  York  City? 

General  Groves.  I  don't  think  so,  I  remember  it  as  1,000  pounds 
each,  I  believe.  That  is  all  the  information  I  obtained,  I  believe,  from 
some  member  of  your  committee  or  staff. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  You  have  no  way  of  knowing,  from  your  inde- 
pendent knowledge,  whether  that  is  the  same  shipment  you  learned 
about  from  this  committee  ? 

General  Groves.  No ;  but  it  certainly  had  no  export  license  that  re- 
ceived the  concurrence  of  the  Manhattan  District. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  to  read  to  you  the  following  letter  dated 
April  17, 1943,  addressed  to  the  Lend-Lease  Administration,  attention 
of  Mr.  James  Hoopes,  which  is  signed  "Thomas  T.  Crenshaw,  Lieu- 
tenant Colonel,  Corps  of  Engineers,  Assistant,"  relating  to  this  Cana- 
dian shipment. 

General  Groves.  What  is  the  date  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  April  17, 1943.     The  letter  states : 

This  office  has  been  referred  to  you  as  being  familiar  with  the  status  of  requests 
from  the  Russian  Government  for  uranium  compounds  and  metal.  It  is  under- 
stood that  you  will  act  for  Mr.  Moore  during  his  absence. 

Copy  of  letter  from  the  AVar  Production  Board,  regarding  available  supplies  of 
ferro-uranium,  is  enclosed.  We  had  previously  advised  the  War  Production 
Board  that  we  would  not  be  interested  in  obtaining  this  material  and  therefore 
would  suggest  that  you  contact  Mr.  Punderson  direc-tly  in  order  to  make  sure 
that  the  material  is  still  available.  In  addition  to  the  quantities  indicated  here, 
this  office  is  cognizant  of  another  small  lot  of  ferro-uranium  totaling  approxi- 
mately 65  pounds. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  945 

If  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  is  interested  in  this  material  from  the 
standpoint  of  experimental  worlc  on  alloys  as  they  have  previously  stated,  the 
ferro-uranium  should  serve  their  purpose  as  well  or  better  than  uranium  salts. 
It  is  suggested  that  it  might  be  advisable  to  attempt  to  secure  a  commitment 
from  them  as  to  any  jjarticular  specifications  which  must  be  met  if  they  decide 
to  accept  ferro-uranium ;  it  would  be  preferable  to  obtain  this  information 
before  making  the  enclosed  analysis  available  to  them. 

It  is  requested  that  we  be  kept  advised  as  to  the  progress  of  the  negotiations 
regarding  this  material.  If  they  refuse  to  accept  the  ferro-uranium,  kindly 
notify  us  as  we  have  one  alternate  proposition  which  might  perhaps  be  offered 
as  a  solution  to  the  present  difficulty. 

General  Groves.  Could  I  ask  you  for  that  chemical  analysis  they 
gave  ?     Do  you  have  that  as  an  enclosure  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  will  secure  it  for  you.  That  was  a  letter  signed 
by  Thomas  T.  Crenshaw,  lieutenant  colonel,  Corps  of  Engineers,  assis- 
tant. 

(The  chemical  analysis  requested  was  handed  to  the  witness  by  Mr. 
Russell.) 

General  Groves.  All  right.     You  can  go  ahead  if  you  wish. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Continuing  with  the  correspondence  relating  to  this 
matter,  a  letter  dated  April  23,  194:3,  addressed  to  Lieutenant  Colonel 
Cren.shaw  and  signed  by  Mr.  Hoopes,  state  since  the  receipt  of  Colonel 
Crenshaw's  letter  of  April  17  he,  Mr.  Hoopes,  understood  that  General 
GroA^es  has  advised  General  Wesson  that  the  particular  request  for 
500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  can 
be  approved.    Mr.  Hoopes  said  that — 

The  Soviet  Commission  is  being  advised  accordingly.  In  addition,  it  has  been 
agreed  that  an  application  for  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal  would  be  entertained 
if  submitted. 

I  assume  that  General  Groves  will  post  you  on  any  details  regarding  his  deci- 
sion. 

If  there  are  further  inquiries  from  the  Soviets  on  these  or  related  materials, 
we  will  let  you  know. 

Now,  is  that  shipment  the  shipment  vou  referred  to  a  little  while  aso 
as  being  the  shipment  that  was  not  approved? 

General  Groves.  I  believe  that  if  you  examine  the  files  a  little  more 
in  detail,  you  will  find  I  turned  down  the  ideas  of  Colonel  Crenshaw 
in  this  respect,  and  it  was  not  approved  by  me. 

Mr.  Walter.  When  did  that  occur  '^ 

Mr.  Taatdnner.  The  date  of  this  letter  is  April  23, 1943. 

Mr.  Walter.  Tlie  fact  of  the  matter  is.  General,  that  both  of  the 
shipments  that  were  made,  and  those  that  were  authorized  but  which 
you  intended  would  never  be  made,  all  occurred  in  1943  in  the  early 
spring  ? 

General  Groves.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Could  it  have  been  possible  that  anj^  shipments  were 
made  in  1944? 

General  Groves.  Not  if  we  could  have  helped  it,  and  not  with  our 
knowledge  of  any  kind.  They  would  have  had  to  be  entirel}^  secret 
and  not  discovered.  It  was  right  after  this  incident — the  one  that 
started  with  the  Fomichev  letter  of  January  29,  1943,  that  talked 
about  the  200  and  220  pounds — it  was  right  after  that  that  the  gen- 
eral blockade  was  put  into  effect,  and  I  don't  think  any  of  it  got 
through.    I  don't  think  the  ferro-uranium  was  shipped, 

Mr.  Walter.  And  at  that  time  the  Army  had  control  of  the  entire 
supply  ? 

99334—50 4 


946  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

General  Groves.  We  had  control  of  everything  we  could  find  out 
about.  Nothing  was  published  to  tell  everybody  they  had  to  turn  in 
any  uranium  they  had,  but  we  had  almost  complete  control. 

Mr.  Walter.  So  if  there  had  been  any  shipments  made  in  the  spring 
of  1944,  they  would  have  been  made  from  the  supply  the  Army  had? 

General  Groves.  Had  or  knew  about,  or  they  might  have  been  made 
from  some  supplies  we  knew  nothing  about.  But  I  believe  a  check 
will  show  this  ferro-uranium  shipment  was  not  actually  carried 
through,  and  that  I  reversed  Colonel  Crenshaw  on  it. 

Mr.  Harrison.  If  Mr.  Harry  Hopkins  knew  about  it,  you  surely 
would  have  known  about  it,  would  you  not? 

General  Groves..  Not  necessarily. 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  Mr.  Hopkins  ever  make  an  attempt  to  obtain 
blueprints  or  maps  or  other  papers  with  respect  to  the  development 
of  the  atomic  bomb  from  you  ? 

General  Groves.  From  me  directly? 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes. 

General  Groves.  No. 

Mr.  Harrison.  There  is  testimony  before  this  committee,  which 
you  probably  read  in  the  paper,  to  the  effect  that  a  map  of  Oak  Ridge 
was  shipped  to  Russia,  accompanied  by  a  note  on  White  House  sta- 
tionary, written  in  longhand,  which  note  said :  "I  had  a  hell  of  a  time 
getting  this  from  Groves."  Did  anyone  in  the  White  House  get  such 
map  from  you,  whether  he  had  a  hell  of  a  time  getting  it  or  not? 

General  Groves.  Not  from  me  that  I  was  aware  of.  If  they  got 
it  they  would  have  had  to  get  it  from  somebody  on  my  staff  or  some- 
one to  whom  I  had  for  some  reason  given  a  map  in  connection  with 
some  discussion  or  something  of  that  kind.  I  doubt  very  seriously  if 
any  such  thing  was  done  legitimately  by  anyone.  I  know  it  was  not 
done  by  anyone  in  my  office.    I  am  sure  of  that. 

Mr.  Walter.  How  many  people  on  your  staff  had  access  to  maps? 

General  Groves.  I  would  say  a  very  large  number  would  have  had 
access  to  a  map  of  Oak  Ridge.  Without  knowing  just  what  is  claimed 
to  have  been  on  that  map,  I  can't  tell  you  whether  the  stor}'^  is  true 
or  probably  isn't  true.  If  you  have  that,  I  would  be  glad  to  look  at 
it  and  possibly  suggest  to  the  committee  in  executive  session  some 
questions  that  might  be  looked  into  with  respect  to  it. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  knew  the  men  on  your  staff  who  had  access  to 
these  maps? 

General  Groves.  No.  I  had  over  600,000  people  em])loyed  on  the 
project. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  am  talking  about  your  staff. 

General  Groves.  The  staff  in  Washington  was  very,  very  small,  but 
they  were  not  the  ones  who  would  have  had  those  maps.  If  you 
are  talking  about  topographical  surveys  of  the  Oak  Ridge  works, 
they  would  not  have  been  marked  secret.  Maps  of  barracks  or  resi- 
dential buildings  would  not  have  been  marked  secret,  and  I  don't 
know,  but  this  could  very  easily  have  been  a  map  showing  a  lay-out 
of  certain  residential  construction,  firehouses,  or  office  buildings.  It 
could  have  been  almost  anything.  So  that  if  it  was  not  marked  secret 
or  restricted  or  confidential,  it  wouldn't  mean  necessarily  that  any 
information  that  we  were  trying  to  hold  secret  was  getting  out. 

It  is  true  that  throughout  the  project  many  matters  were  handled 
as  nonsecret,  and  handled  perfectly  openly,  that,  if  people  could  have 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  947 

put  them  all  together,  they  would  have  had  a  tremendous  amount  of 
information.  Actual  bomb  parts  were  made  by  some  manufactur- 
ing companies  in  their  plants,  and  they  were  made  without  any  secret 
or  confidential  mark  being  put  on  them.  Of  course,  they  were  shipped 
and  reshipped  and  everything  done  to  cover  tracks,  but  it  was  neces- 
sary to  take  a  great  many  chances  of  security.  Those  chances  were 
taken  deliberately,  because  the  primary  purpose  was  to  bring  the  war 
to  a  close  earlier  than  it  otherwise  would  have  been.  That  was  the 
mission,  and  that  mission  was  accomplished.  The  secrecy,  or  guarding 
from  the  Russians,  particularly,  a  great  deal  of  it  was  on  our  own 
initiative  and  in  accordance  with  a  Presidential  directive  to  me  to 
keep  everything  as  secret  as  possible.  But  I  believe  those  of  you  who 
were  in  Washington  at  that  time  realize  that  suspicion  of  Russia  was 
not  very  popular  in  some  circles.  It  was  popular  at  Oak  Ridge,  and 
from  1  month  of  the  time  I  took  over  we  never  trusted  them  one 
iota,  and  from  that  time  on  our  whole  security  was  based  on  not  let- 
ting the  Russians  find  out  anything.  We  were  not  worried  about 
Germany  or  Japan.     We  were  worried  about  Russia. 

Mr.  Walter.  At  any  time  did  any  of  your  officers  tell  you  that  pres- 
sure had  been  brought  to  bear  on  them  to  furnish  Harry  Hopkins  with 
confidential  plans  or  maps? 

General  Groves.  No  ;  and  I  think  to  clear  the  matter  up  definitely 
I  would  like  to  add  to  that  answer  a  little.  At  no  time,  to  the  best  of 
my  recollection  and  belief — and  I  am  sure  I  would  have  remembered 
it — did  I  ever  meet  Harry  Hopkins,  talk  to  him  on  the  phone,  receive 
any  letters  from  him  or  write  any  to  him,  or  have  any  dealings  with 
anyone  who  pretended  to  be  talking  for  him.  There  may  be  letters 
on  file  that  are  contrary  to  that,  but  if  there  are,  they  were  of  a  routine 
type.  I  can  find  no  one  from  the  people  who  were  the  closest  to  me 
during  that  period  in  the  office  who  remembers  any  such  contact.  I 
do  know,  of  course,  that  Mr.  Hopkins  knew  about  this  project.  I 
know  that.  But  as  far  as  any  dealings  with  me  or,  as  far  as  I  know, 
with  any  members  of  my  staff,  they  didn't  occur. 

Furthermore,  I  think  it  is  important  to  realize  that  our  organiza- 
tion, both  in  Washington  and  in  New  York,  was  so  closely  knit,  and 
things  were  under  such  a  tight  centralized  control,  that  I  can't  imag- 
ine any  request  or  effort  by  Mr.  Hopkins  along  that  line  ever  occur- 
ring without  my  knowledge,  unless  someone  in  the  office  was  lacking  in 
the  integrity  he  should  have  had,  and  we  never  discovered  that  in  our 
organization. 

He  could  have  gotten  it  from  one  of  the  scientists  who  we  know  were 
giving  information  to  Russia,  but  I  don't  believe  he  got  it  from  anyone 
who  was  from  my  immediate  office,  or  anyone  in  charge,  first,  Colonel 
Marshall,  and  then  General  Nichols. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  said  there  was  a  great  deal  of  pressure  on 
Lend-Lease  to  ship  uranium  to  Russia.  Can  you  tell  us  who  exerted 
the  pressure? 

General  Groves.  No;  I  can't  tell  you  who  exerted  the  pressure  on 
Lend-Lease.  Of  course  it  could  have  been  internal  pressure.  At  any 
rate,  we  saw  every  evidence  of  that  pressure,  and  I  believe  your  files  of 
the  Lend-Lease  diaries  will  show  how  they  repeatedly  came  back.  It 
was  evident  from  reading  the  diaries  that  we  didn't  want  this  material 
shipped,  yet  they  kept  coming  back  and  coming  back. 


948  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

The  first  conversation  I  had  was,  I  believe,  with  General  Wesson, 
and  I  made  it  very  plain  we  did  not  want  it  shipped.  iVs  you  know,. 
General  Wesson  is  not  well.  It  has  been  impossible  for  me,  since  thi& 
thing  first  came  up,  to  have  any  discussion  with  him  at  all.  I  don't 
believe  he  would  remember  much  about  it.  He  was  handling  hun- 
dreds of  things  every  day.  I  believe  it  is  fair  to  say  that  he  immedi- 
ately passed  that  on  to  his  subordinates,  and  his  subordinates  were 
fully  aware  that  we  did  not  want  this  material  to  be  shipped  abroad, 
and  this  continual  pressure  to  ship  it  was  certainly  coming  from  some- 
where. Either  it  was  coming  internally,  from  ambitious  souls,  or  it 
was  coming  externally. 

I  am  sure  if  you  would  check  on  the  pressure  on  officers  handling  all 
supplies  of  a  military  nature  during  the  war,  you  will  find  the  pres- 
sure to  give  to  Russia  everything  that  could  be  given  was  not  limited 
to  atomic  matters. 

There  was  one  incident  that  occurred  later.  I  was  reminded  this 
morning  by  one  of  my  former  people  of  how  delighted  we  w^ere 
when  we  managed  to  get  some  material  away  from  the  Russians. 
It  was  a  major  accomplishment.  And  the  only  thing  we  got  away 
from  them  was  time.  We  were  very  anxious,  in  connection  with  the 
gaseous  diffusion  plant,  to  get  certain  equi])ment.  If  it  had  not  been 
obtained,  that  plant  would  have  been  delayed  in  its  completion. 
The  Russians  had  a  plant  on  the  way.  Of  course  when  I  say  they  had 
it,  you  know  who  paid  for  it.  That  plant,  some  of  it  was  boxed 
and  on  the  dock  when  we  got  it.  and  I  can  still  remember  the  diffi- 
culties we  had  in  getting  it. 

One  of  the  agreements  we  had  to  make  was  that  we  would  replace 
that  equipment,  and  use  all  our  priorities  necessary  to  get  it  replaced 
quickly.     The  agreement  even  said  this : 

Said  equipment  and  materials  to  be  essentially  the  dupliciite  of  all  material 
under  the  previous  procurement  number. 

That  particular  plant  was  oil-refinery  equipment,  and  in  my  opin- 
ion was  purely  postwar  Russian  supply,  as  you  know  much  of  it  was. 
I  give  you  that  as  an  example  of  what  people  interested  in  suppl}'^- 
ing  American  troops  had  to  contend  with  during  the  war. 

Where  that  influence  came  from,  you  can  guess  as  well  as  I  can. 
It  was  certainly  prevalent  in  Washington,  and  it  was  prevalent 
throughout  the  country,  and  the  only  spot  I  know  of  that  was  dis- 
tinctly anti-Russian  at  an  early  period  was  the  Manhattan  project,, 
and  we  were.  There  was  never  any  doubt  about  it  from  sometime 
along  about  October  1942.  I  believe  the  people  there  just  a  few 
days  before  I  was  were  anti-Russian  a  little  before  I  Avas.  They  just 
learned  about  it  sooner,  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Learned  about  espionage  activities  ? 

General  Groves.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  your  answer  to  the  chairman's  first  question  as 
to  whether  or  not  the  late  Harry  Hopkins  had  attempted  to  obtain 
any  documents  or  material  from  you,  you  used  the  word  that  he  did 
not  "directly." 

General  Groves.  That  means  that  it  never  came  to  my  attention 
in  any  way,  and  I  believe  if  the  approach  had  been  made  to  anyone 
in  a  position  to  furnish  those  documents  legally  and  properly,  it  would 
have  been  called  to  my  attention.     They  wouldn't  even  send  a  docu- 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  949 

ment  to  the  White  House  if  the  President  called  for  it  without  asking 
me  if  it  was  all  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  there  any  occasion  that  was  reported  to  you 
when  any  quantity  of  secret  material  or  drawings  had  been  removed 
from  the  files  ? 

General  Groves.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Would  you  have  known  of  it  if  such  a  thing  had 
occurred  in  any  quantity  ? 

General  Groves.  Yes ;  and  I  think  I  would  have  known  of  it  if  one 
particular  paper  had  been  missing  and  discovered  to  be  missing. 
Those  things  were  normally  reported  to  me.  There  were  a  few  in- 
stances where  it  was  not  reported  to  me,  but  those  were  cases  of  officers 
in  the  field  well  removed  from  my  influence,  you  might  say. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  may  have  already  answered  the  question  in 
answer  to  questions  by  Judge  Harrison,  but  was  there  any  time  during 
your  administration  of  this  project  that  any  higher  official  of  Gov- 
ernment attempted  to  use  pressure  on  you,  when  you  recognized  it  as 
such,  for  the  delivery  of  documents  or  for  the  shipping  of  uranium 
destined  for  Russia  ? 

General  Groves.  Nothing  except  what  I  have  already  told  you 
about  the  lend-lease  operation.  General  Wesson  did  not  put  pres- 
sure on  me.  General  Wesson  could  not  have  put  pressure  on  me.  But 
that  did  not  keep  his  subordinates  from  constantly  bringing  it  up. 

There  are  two  kinds  of  pressure  in  Washington.  One  is  the  kind 
that  comes  from  above,  that  you  realize  what  it  is.  The  other  kind  is 
constant  hammering,  repeating  and  repeating,  in  the  hope  that  you 
wear  down  or  that  something  slips.  If  you  run  an  office  of  some  size, 
eventually  something  is  going  to  slip.  Nobody  has  a  thousand  batting 
average.  I  believe  it  was  the  hope  of  the  people  who  kept  pushing  and 
pushing  that  they  might  catch  me  out  of  town,  or  that  some  day  I 
would  say  to  give  it  to  them  to  shut  them  up. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  talking  about  the  kind  of  pressure  that  you 
say  you  know  what  it  is  about. 

General  Groves.  No,  there  was  not.  Any  time  I  discussed  my  feel- 
ings about  the  Russians  with  any  higher  officer  of  the  Government  in 
the  executive  branch,  I  never  had  any  signs  of  any  disagreement  with 
what  I  said.  There  was  not  even  any  indirect  pressure,  such  as  say- 
ing, "After  all,  you  are  unreasonable  about  the  Russians,"  I  am 
talking  about  the  executive  branch. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  A  moment  ago  I  was  asking  you  about  the  licensing 
for  the  shipment  of  uranium,  and  the  records  which  we  have  seen 
indicate  that  permission  was  at  first  denied  to  grant  a  license  for  the 
shipping  of  that  quantity  of  uranium  of  which  we  spoke. 

General  Gro\'es.  You  are  referring  to  which  one,  the  first  ship- 
ment ? 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  No,  the  second;  and  that  later  it  was  reactivated. 

General  Groves.  And  finally  granted  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  I  want  to  ask  you. 

General  Groves.  If  you  mean  by  granted,  consented  to  by  us  or 
by  me,  I  can  tell  you  no  very  definitely.  I  can  find  no  record  of  it, 
and  can  find  no  record  in  my  memory,  and  my  memory  is  still  reason- 
ably satisfactory,  and  I  am  sure  it  was  not  done.  If  somebody  got 
my  signature,  I  would  like  to  see  that  signature,  and  I  don't  mean 
a  photostat,  either;  I  mean  the  original  document. 


950  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  As  far  as  you  know  was  it  ever  granted  ? 

General  Groves.  As  far  as  1  know  it  was  not  granted  with  the 
knowledge  of  any  member  of  the  Manhattan  project.  If  it  was  done, 
it  was  done  with  the  knowledge  I  did  not  approve.  There  was  one 
instance  where  it  was  assented  tq  by  Colonel  Crensliaw,  and  that  was 
later  revoked. 

You  must  realize  I  am  in  a  position  where  I  no  longer  have  any 
control  over  those  records.  I  have  had  no  control  since  January  1, 
1947,  when  they  were  turned  over  to  other  agencies  of  the  Government. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  the  license  was  granted  notwithstanding  your 
disapproval,  who  would  have  had  authority  to  make  that  decision  ? 

General  Groves.  Whoever  issued  the  license.  As  far  as  I  know, 
there  was  nothing  that  required  a  countersignature.  They  may  have 
been  told  to  get  my  consent,  but  as  far  as  I  know  it  did  not  require 
countersigning.  As  far  as  I  know,  I  never  saw  an  export  license  in 
my  life. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  last  letter  I  read  stated  that  an  application 
for  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal  would  be  entertained  if  submitted. 
Is  the  committee's  information  correct  that  2  pounds  of  this  metal 
were  shipped  to  the  Russians  and  the  shipment  approved  by  the  Man- 
hattan Engineering  District  because  the  metal  was  so  impure  that  it 
was  known  the  Russians  could  not  use  it  for  atomic  purposes? 

General  Groves.  I  don't  know.  We  were  willing  to  consent  to  the 
export  license  for  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal  because  we  were  very 
interested  in  knowing  if  anyone  knew  how  to  make  the  metal.  The 
metal  that  was  shipped  was  not  doctored ;  it  was  simply  not  well  made, 
and  it  did  not  indicate  to  the  Russians  what  we  wanted  to  get.  It  was 
2  pounds  of  uranium  metal,  and  that  is  all  there  was  to  it.  The}^ 
might  as  well  have  had  2  pounds  of  oxide  so  far  as  determining  what 
we  wanted.  If  they  took  it  as  the  type  we  were  using,  they  would  have 
had  a  delay.  I  would  have  been  willing  to  let  them  liaA^e  2  pounds  of 
inferior  metal. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  As  far  as  you  know,  the  Russians  didn't  ask  for  the 
completion  of  the  25-pound  order  after  receiving  the  2  pounds? 

General  Groves.  No.  After  approving  the  shipment  of  this  25 
pounds,  I  was  told  they  got  a  little  of  it,  and  some  comment  to  the 
effect  "we  would  like  to  see  the  Russians  when  thev  try  to  use  that  in  a 
pile." 

Mr.  Tavenner.  General,  I  would  like  you  to  read  a  memorandum 
addressed  to  William  C.  Moore  by  J.  Hoopes,  and  ask  if  you  desire 
to  make  any  comments  on  it. 

General  Gro\^s.  Mr.  Hoopes  was  Mr.  Moore's  assistant,  wasn't  he  ? 

Mr,  Tavenner.  Yes.  Suppose  you  look  at  it  and  read  it  and  make 
such  comment  as  you  care  to  make  on  it. 

General  Groves  (after  examining  document).  I  believe  that  con- 
firms what  I  was  trying  to  tell  you  earlier,  and  you  wouldn't  quite 
agree  I  was  right.  In  other  words.  Colonel  Crenshaw's  consent  to  this 
export  license  was  definitely  overruled  by  me.  and  General  Wesson 
was  so  informed  and  agreed  to  it ;  and  in  its  place  the  application  for 
500  pounds  of  each  kind  of  materials  to  be  sent  to  Russia  was  approved, 
with  the  idea  of  smoking  them  out  and  seeing  if  they  could  get  it. 
This  has  reference  to  General  Wesson's  smiling  when  they  said  they 
were  unable  to  get  the  material.  So  I  think  that  will  clear  up  the 
matter  and  show  that  my  testimony  was  correct. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  951 

Mr.  Walter.  General  Groves,  did  you  ever  know  Major  Jordan? 

General  Groves.  As  far  as  I  can  remember,  I  have  never  met  liim 
or  known  him  at  any  time,  but  I  have  met  so  many  people  I  can't 
remember  definitely. 

Mr.  Walter.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  any  complaints  that  he  made 
sometime  in  1944  concerning  the  shipment  of  this  strategic  material 
you  were  in  charge  of  ? 

General  Groves.  Not  in  respect  of  material  I  was  in  charge  of,  but 
reading  the  papers  and  listening  to  the  radio  on  the  first  two  nights — I 
didn't  listen  last  night — I  gain  the  impression  that  what  he  was  com- 
plaining of  at  the  time  was  not  the  shipment  of  uranium,  but  the 
tremendous  shipments  going  to  Russia.  I  never  heard  any  complaints 
from  him,  but  I  heard  some  Washington  complaints  from  a  lot  of  offi- 
cers as  to  why  on  earth  we  were  stripping  the  United  States  to  give 
Russia  materials,  particularly  materials  not  for  war  purposes  but  for 
later  activities,  commercial  and  engineering  equipment  that  they  could 
not  possibly  use  to  win  the  war.  That  was  common  talk  among  officers 
of  the  Arniy  and  Navy  who  were  working  on  allocation  committees  on 
automobiles,  trucks,  steel,  and  things  of  that  kind.  That  is  what  they 
told  me,  and  not  what  I  knew  of  my  own  knowledge.  I  used  to  see 
them  every  day  as  they  came  out  of  meetings,  and  I  would  get  some 
rather  indignant  statements  from  them. 

Mr.  Moulder.  What  use  would  Russia  have  for  2  pounds  of  uranium 
metal  ? 

General  Groves.  The  only  use  would  be,  it  would  tell  them  what  we 
were  trying  to  do,  and  it  would  give  them  a  small  amount  for  laboratory 
purposes.  They  may  not  even  have  been  able  to  make  metal  as  good 
as  they  got. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Is  it  your  contention  that  such  quantity  as  was 
shipped  was  for  the  purpose  of  deceiving  them  in  their  efforts  to  know 
what  was  going  on  ? 

General  Groves.  No.  I  said  the  reason  for  approving  the  metal 
shipment  was  essentially  to  find  out  if  anybody  in  this  country  knew 
how  to  make  metal  satisfactory  to  us. 

Mr.  Moulder.  I  thought  you  said  it  would  not  give  them  informa- 
tion of  value. 

General  Groves.  It  was  the  wrong  kind,  but  we  wanted  to  find  out 
if  anybody  in  this  country  could  make  it  satisfactory  to  us. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Repeating,  you  state  very  definitely  and  emphati- 
cally that  no  pressure  was  exerted  from  the  executive  department  of 
our  Government  upon  you  or  any  person  in  your  employ  ? 

General  Groves.  With  respect  to  my  anti-Russian  attitude,  you 
might  say.  That  was  the  statement  I  made.  The  other  statement  was 
made  that  I  never  had  any  pressure  that  I  know  of  from  Mr.  Hopkins. 
I  may  have  had  some  contacts  from  his  office  when  I  was  on  construc- 
tion, but  I  don't  recall  any,  and  they  were  just  routine  and  I  wouldn't 
have  known  of  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  With  regard  to  this  500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide, 
can  you  give  us  some  idea  as  to  how  many  pounds  of  pure  uranium 
could  be  extracted  from  it  ? 

General  Groves.  Oh,  my,  I  am  no  longer  supposed  to  know  anything 
about  atomic  energy.  One  of  your  staff  ought  to  be  able  to  tell  you. 
This  is  just  a  guess,  but  I  would  say  80  percent.  That  is  easy  to  find. 
You  can  find  it. 


952  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Can  pure  uranium  be  extracted  from  uranium 
nitrate  ? 

General  Groves.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Would  the  furnishing  of  this  amount  of  uranium 
nitrate  and  uranium  oxide  to  Russia  which  was  contemplated,  of  500 
pounds  each,  be  of  any  value  for  experimental  purposes? 

General  Groves.  Any  amount  would  be  of  value  in  certain  experi- 
mental work.  That  is,  in  anything  to  do  with  chemistry.  After  all, 
we  designed  and  practically  built  the  Hanford  plant  for  separating 
plutonium  and  uranium  wdien  we  had  one-millionth  of  a  pound  of 
plutonium.    The  chemistry  part  could  be  very  well  handled. 

But  when  it  came  to  making  a  pile  there  wasn't  enough  for  that.  You 
couldn't  even  have  run  an  experimental  pile  such  as  was  used  at  the 
University  of  Chicago.  I  will  not  tell  you  in  open  session  how  much 
would  be  needed  to  make  a  pile  such  as  was  used  at  the  University  of 
Chicago,  but  Joliot-Curie  has  said  how  much  he  had  to  operate  in 
Paris,  and  I  think  it  is  reasonable. 

Mr.  TA^^3NNER.  How  much  did  he  say  ? 

General  Groves.  My  recollection  is  it  was  something  in  the  order 
of  a  ton. 

Mr.  Walter.  The  amount  was  considerably  in  excess  of  the  amount 
shipped  ? 

General  Groves.  Oh,  yes ;  in  other  words,  this  w^oukl  be  like  trying 
to  make  something  in  the  way  of  a  kitchen  product  wdiere  we  needed 
three  cups  of  flour  and  only  had  one,  if  you  had  to  make  your  loaf  of 
bread  of  a  certain  size,  and  that  is  what  you  have  to  do  with  this. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  might  have  a  smaller  loaf  and  still  use  it  for 
experiments,  coudn't  you  ? 

General  Groves.  Due  to  the  way  uranium  reacts  in  fission,  you  have 
to  have  a  certain  amount  to  work  with.  You  have  to  have  enough 
before  you  can  tell  anything  about  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  General  Groves,  the  committee  has  received  infor- 
mation that  a  certain  quantity  of  heavy  water  was  requisitioned  by 
the  Russians,  and  that  an  export  license  was  granted  for  this  ship- 
ment.   Do  you  know  if  it  was  actually  shipped  ? 

General  Groves.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  the  licensing  of  the  shipment  approved  by  the 
Manhattan  District? 

General  Groves.  Not  as  far  as  I  know.     Do  you  know  the  date? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Between  October  1  and  December  31,  1943. 

General  Groves.  I  just  can't  imagine  that  being  granted.  I  am  a 
little  in  doubt  as  to  whether  there  was  any  heavy  water  to  be  obtained 
in  this  country  at  that  time.  I  would  have  to  check  our  production  fig- 
ures to  know.  I  believe  it  was  reported  in  the  Saturday  Evening  Post 
regarding  the  Earl  of  Norfolk's  journey  to  France,  that  a  supply  of 
heavy  water  was  taken  at  the  same  time,  and  that  su]inly  was  brought 
later  to  Canada,  first  at  Montreal  and  then  at  Chalk  River.  The  next 
amount  of  heavy  water  was  manufactured  under  contract  for  us,  and  if 
that  escaped  from  our  control  we  would  be  very  much  disappointed  to 
think  it  got  out. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  During  what  period  were  you  having  it  manufac- 
tured for  you  ? 

General  Groves.  I  will  have  to  do  some  thinking  on  that.  I  don't 
recall  when  tiie  first  amount  was  produced. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  953 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  furnish  us  with  that  information,  as  well 
as  the  names  of  the  firms  manufacturing  it? 

General  Groves.  I  will  if  it  is  not  secret  information,  but  I  think 
it  would  be  better  to  ask  somebody  who  has  access  to  my  old  files.  I  do 
not  have  access  to  my  files,  which  are  now  in  the  Atomic  Energy  Com- 
mission. 

Mr.  Walter.  If  any  had  been  shipped  you  would  have  known  about 
it,  would  you  not  ? 

General  Grovt:s.  If  it  had  been  called  to  the  attention  of  the  Man- 
hattan District  I  would  have  known  of  it,  and  I  can't  conceive  of 
consenting  to  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Why  not? 

General  Groves.  I  didn't  want  tliem  to  have  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  the  value  of  heavy  water? 

General  Groves.  As  a  moderator,  just  as  graphite  is  used  as  a  mode- 
rator in  the  Hanford  pile.  If  the  Hanford  pile  had  failed,  we  were 
ready  to  design  a  heavy-water  pile.  We  knew  the  Germans  were  des- 
perate to  get  heavy  water  from  Norway,  and  my  thought  was  if  the 
Germans  found  heavy  water  so  important,  it  would  be  very  embarras- 
ing  if  we  had  to  wait  a  year  or  two  to  make  it. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Other  than  the  heavy  water  being  manufactured 
specifically  for  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District,  was  there  a  large 
quantity  of  it  available  in  tlie  United  States? 

General  Gro\tes.  Not  that  I  know  of.  It  could  be  made,  of  course, 
and  with  a  very  small  amount  of  effort,  in  a  college  laboratory,  but 
you  would  have  a  drop  or  so.  When  it  was  first  discovered  I  don't 
know  how  much  was  made.  But  it  is  a  very  expensive  variety  of  water 
to  make. 

To  go  on,  and  to  anticipate  your  question  that  you  are  trying  to 
frame,  I  think,  the  story  I  have  read  in  the  paper  is  that  large  carboys 
like  you  buy  mineral  water  in,  5-gallon  carboys,  at  least,  marked 
heavy  water,  were  shipped  to  Russia  through  Great  Falls. 

If  the  Russians  actually  got  that  much  heavy  water  and  paid  their 
own  money  for  it,  I  don't  think  they  got  value  received.  I  think  some- 
body just  labeled  it  heavy  water.  I  don't  think  you  could  tell  the 
difference  between  heavy  water  and  plain  water,  just  looking  at  it. 

Mr.  Moulder.  How  long  would  it  take  to  make  the  quantity  of 
heavy  water  it  was  said  went  through  Great  Falls,  Mont? 

General  Groves.  It  depends  on  the  plant.  If  you  were  going  to 
make  it,  you  would  have  to  put  maybe  $5,000,000  in  the  plant,  and  it 
would  cost  you  maybe  $10  or  $15  a  pound;  of  course  a  pound  is  a 
pint ;  so  I  just  can't  imagine  anybody  getting  it. 

Mr.  Moulder.  To  go  through  that  process  would  take  considerable 
time? 

General  Groves.  Yes.  It  is  just  like  somebody  would  tell  me  they 
shipped  a  dozen  Hope  diamonds. 

Mr.  Walter.  Was  there  any  company  in  the  United  States  at  that 
time,  in  1944,  equipped  to  manufacture  that  quantity  of  heavy  water  ? 
General  Groves.  Not  that  I  know  of,  and  I  am  sure  if  there  had 
been  we  would  have  had  them  under  contract.  It  requires  a  tre- 
mendous amount  of  power  in  one  form  or  another  to  do  it.  The 
Norwegian  plant  was  hooked  to  an  enormous  hydroelectric  plant  to 
get  the  water.  They  merely  passed  it  through  and  separated  it  by 
the  electrolysis  method. 


954  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Walter.  Do  you  know  what  the  capacity  of  the  Norwegian 
plant  was  ? 

General  Groves.  Before  it  was  damaged  it  didn't  even  then  produce 
very  much,  and  we  kept  it  damaged  during  the  war.  But  it  is  a  very 
small  amount.  If  you  poured  it  into  a  glass  you  would  be  sure  you 
got  every  last  drop  out  of  that  glass.  In  other  words,  if  you  wish  me 
to  comment  on  the  report  that  there  were  many  of  these  5-gallon  jugs 
going  through,  I  would  say,  "Somehow,  I  can't  believe  that  is  so." 
I  don't  say  they  might  not  have  been  labeled  heavy  water.  It  is  just 
like  the  diamonds. 

Mr.  Walter.  Maybe  somebody  was  paying  for  heavy  water  and 
not  getting  it. 

General  Groves.  Maybe  so,  and  if  so  I  know  who  was  paying  it. 

Mr.  Tavenxer.  We  have  a  report  indicating  that  a  license  was 
granted  for  the  shipment  of  heavy  water  to  Russia  of  a  value  of  $3,250, 
and  apparently  it  was  41  ounces,  or  it  may  have  been  41  pounds,  but 
we  think  it  was  41  ounces. 

General  Groves.  I  would  think  it  was  41  ounces,  too. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Ounces? 

General  Groves.  Yes. 

Mr.  Russell.  Last  night  we  were  doing  some  figuring,  and  we  also 
figured  41  grains  and  grams. 

General  Groves.  I  would  say  it  was  probably  41  ounces.  They 
might  have  been  able  to  get  41  ounces. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  was  the  date  of  that  license? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Between  October  1  and  December  31,  1943.  Was 
the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  consulted  about  the  granting  of 
that  license  ? 

General  Grox-es.  I  don't  think  so.  At  that  time  I  would  have 
bought  the  41  ounces,  but  I  wouldn't  have  paid  $3,250  for  it  unless  I 
had  to,  but  without  any  question  at  that  time  I  would  have  bought  it 
if  it  had  beeii  pure.  It  probably  was  not  pure.  It  is  very  difficult  to 
get  it  pure,  and  it  is  very  easy  to  contaminate  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  other  Government  agencies  besides  the  Man- 
hattan Engineering  District  had  access  to  reports  concerning  the 
progress  of  the  atomic  bomb  development? 

General  Groves.  No  other  agencies.  There  were  individuals  in 
other  agencies  who  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  say  there  were  individuals  in  other  Govern- 
ment agencies  who  had  access  to  the  reports  ? 

General  Groves.  Yes. 

Mr.  TA^^:NNER.  Explain  that. 

General  GR0^-ES.  There  were  very  few  reports  by  the  Manhattan 
district.  We  didn't  have  time  to  write  reports,  and  we  didn't  write 
them  unless  there  was  some  need  for  them.  I  believe  four  or  five 
reports  were  written.  The  people  who  had  access  to  them  were :  The 
Chief  of  Staff,  General  Marshall ;  the  Secretary  of  War,  Mr.  Stimson, 
and  an  assistant  who  handled  that  work,  Mr.  Bundy ;  Rear  Admiral 
Purnell  of  the  Navy ;  Admiral  King  of  the  Navy ;  General  Starr  of 
the  Army,  who,  with  Admiral  Purnell,  was  on  the  Military  Policy 
Committee;  General  Somervell,  if  he  asked  to  read  it,  had  a  right  to, 
through  General  Starr. 

Then  there  were  Dr.  Bush  and  Dr.  Conant.  Dr.  Conant  was  one 
of  my  two  chief  advisers,  so  he  was  in  and  out  of  the  project.    And 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  955 

Dr.  Bush  was  so  close  to  it  he  might  well  have  been  considered  as  being 
in  it,  but  he  wasn't  under  me,  of  course. 

Then  there  was  the  President  of  the  United  States;  and  only  one 
report,  the  second  report  that  was  made,  which  was  made,  I  believe, 
August  21, 1943,  was  shown  to  the  Vice  President.  That  was  the  only 
report  that  was  shown  to  the  Vice  President. 

As  you  will  recall  from  the  history,  the  original  committee  appointed 
by  President  Roosevelt  to  look  into  this  question  of  atomic  energy  and 
the  possibility  of  its  working,  when  it  got  beyond  the  scientific  stages, 
when  it  looked  like  it  might  be  of  interest,  was  made  up — and  this  is 
from  memory — of  the  Vice  President  (and  there  is  no  doubt  about 
that  one) ;  Secretary  of  War  Stimson;  General  Marshall;  Dr.  Bush; 
and  Dr.  Conant.    They  were  a  sort  of  super  committee. 

Later,  when  I  was  placed  in  charge  of  the  work,  the  Military  Policy 
Committee  was  formed  to  see  that  everything  was  going  as  they  wished 
it  to.  I  have  given  you  the  names  of  those  on  that  committee.  This 
Military  F'olicy  Committee  probably  operated  under  the  committee 
I  have  previously  named  which  included  Mr.  Wallace.  For  example, 
this  morning  I  looked  at  one  report  to  refresh  my  memory  on  one  date, 
and  that  report  was  headed :  "To  Vice  President  Wallace ;  to  Secre- 
tary of  War  Stimson ;  and  to  General  Marshall."  It  was  signed  by 
me  for  the  Military  Policy  Committee.  It  was  not  necessary  for  Dr. 
Bush  and  Dr.  Conant  to  see  it  after  they  had  approved  it.  That  report 
was  the  only  one  I  ever  showed  Mr.  Wallace,  and  as  far  as  I  know  it 
was  the  only  report  ever  shown  to  him. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  was  the  date  of  that  report  ? 

General  Groves.  It  was  dated  August  21, 1943.  It  was  written  that 
day  by  myself  with  General  Nichols'  assistance.  We  wrote  it  very 
hurriedly,  because  we  had  just  learned  that  President  Roosevelt  was 
going  to  discuss  atomic  energy  matters  with  Mr.  Churchill  at  Quebec, 
and  I  didn't  want  the  President  to  go  up  there  without  knowing  what 
was  going  on. 

The  report  was  written,  given  to  General  Marshall  by  General 
Nichols,  who  acted  as  courier.  Unfortunately,  it  got  there  too  late, 
and  the  various  decisions  were  reached  at  Quebec  without  the  benefit 
of  this  report. 

After  it  came  back  to  me  it  was  shown  in  turn  to  Secretary  Stimson ; 
to  General  Marshall,  who  had  already  seen  it;  and  to  Vice  President 
Wallace.  That  is  the  only  time  I  think  Mr.  Wallace  saw  any  of  those 
reports.  The  first  one,  I  think  he  was  out  of  the  country.  After  that, 
well,  they  weren't  shown  to  him. 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  Mr.  Wallace  ever  bring  any  pressure  to  bear  on 
you  to  make  shipments  to  Russia? 

General  Groves.  Not  on  me  directly.  I  don't  know  what  pressure 
he  might  have  brought  on  somebody  else  who,  in  turn,  brought  pres- 
sure on  me,  but  at  no  time  did  Mr.  Wallace  bring  any  pressure  to  bear 
on  me  directly,  and  at  no  time  was  I  aware  that  any  indirect  pressure 
was  brought  to  bear  by  him, 

Mr.  Moulder.  Or  any  requests? 

General  Groves.  No.  He  was  divorced  from  this  project.  Why  he 
chose  to  divorce  himself  from  this  project,  I  don't  know,  but  he  was 
practically  divorced  from  this  project. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  he  ever  express  an  opinion  to  you  as  to  why  he 
divorced  himself  from  it  ? 


956  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

General  Groves.  No.  The  one  time  I  took  this  rejDort  to  him,  the 
only  thing  I  remember  about  that  is  that  I  had.  to  wait  quite  a  while 
to  see  him,  which  was  very  annoying,  because  I  had  an  appointment, 
and  I  didn't  think  the  people  he  was  seeing  were  very  important  to  the 
war  effort.  I  then  showed  him  the  report.  He  read  it.  We  may 
have  had  a  brief  conversation,  but  that  was  all,  and  I  decided  that 
was  the  last  time  I  was  going  to  shoAv  him  a  report.  I  may  have  men- 
tioned it  to  the  Secretary  of  War,  that  I  wasn't  going  to  show  Mr, 
Wallace  any  more  of  those  reports,  or  I  may  not  have  bothered  to 
tell  the  Secretary.     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  from  what  atomic  installation  Dr. 
Alan  Numi  May,  who  was  convicted  in  England  as  a  result  of  the  ex- 
posure of  the  Canadian  spy  ring,  secured  the  uranium  which  he  turned 
over  to  the  Soviet  Government  ? 

General  Gro\tes._  No.  I  don't  recall  whether  I  ever  did  know,  but  I 
think  his  history  is  very  clear.  It  doesn't  make  any  difference — yes, 
it  does  make  a  difference,  too.  As  far  as  I  recall  he  obtained  uranium, 
and  it  was  separated  uranium  235,  the  purity  of  which  was  near  the 
top,  and  he  also  obtained  a  sample  of  uranium  233,  also  in  nearly  pure 
condition,  I  believe.  I  believe  he  obtained  that  from  the  laboratory 
that  he  was  then  working  in,  which  was  the  Montreal  laboratory.  I 
don't  believe  it  had  moved  to  Chalk  River  yet,  but  it  was  the  same 
laboratory  whether  they  had  moved  or  not. 

He  might  have  obtained  it  at  Chicago,  in  which  case  he  would  have 
had  to  out-and-out  steal  it  or  get  it  through  somebody  in  sympathy 
with  his  aims. 

It  was  my  belief  he  obtained  it  at  the  Montreal  laboratory  and  that 
he  obtained  it  by  means  of  false  reports.  I  think  he  extracted  some 
of  it  before  the  experiment  started  and  reported  greater  losses  through 
the  chemical  process  than  he  had. 

It  is  possible  he  got  it  at  Chicago  in  collusion  with  someone  there. 
I  believe  your  records  show  he  spent  a  great  deal  of  time  at  Chicago. 
He  made  a  request  to  visit  there  which  was  turned  down  by  me.  Not 
that  I  liad  any  suspicion  of  Dr.  May.  I  don't  recall  ever  meeting  him. 
I  know  I  did,  but  I  don't  recall.  But  I  didn't  see  any  reason  why  he 
should  be  down  there  getting  information  I  didn't  think  he  should 
have. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  think  you  have  answered  all  the  questions  I  had 
in  mind  asking  you. 

Mr.  Walter.  Any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Harrison.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Moulder.  No  further  questions. 

Mr.  Walter.  General,  this  committee  is  deeply  indebted  to  you  for 
this  very  fine  statement.    Thank  j'ou  very  much. 

General  Groves.  It  is  a  pleasure  to  be  here. 

(Thereupon,  the  committee  adjourned.) 


HEAKINGS  REGxVEDINCt  SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATERIAL 
TO  THE  SOVIET  UNION  DURING  WORLD  WAR  II 


MONDAY,   JANUARY   23,   1950 

UxiTED  States  House  of  Representatives, 

Committee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

Washington,  D.  C 

PUBLIC  HEARINGS 

morning  session 

The  committee,  met  pursuant  to  call,  at  10 :  45  a.  m.  in  room  226, 
Old  House  Office  Building,  Hon.  John  S.  Wood  (chairman)  presiding. 

Committee  members  present :  Representatives  John  S.  Wood,  Burr 
P.  Harrison,  John  McSweeney,  Morgan  M.  Moulder,  Richard  M. 
Nixon,  Francis  Case,  and  Bernard  W.  Kearney. 

Staff  members  present:  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  counsel;  Louis  J. 
Russell,  senior  investigator;  Courtney  Owens  and  Donald  T.  Appell, 
investigators;  John  W.  Carrington,  clerk;  and  A.  S.  Poore,  editor. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  be  in  order.  The  record  will  show 
that  there  are  present  Mr.  Harrison,  Mr.  McSweeney,  Mr.  Moulder, 
Mr.  Nixon,  Mr.  Case,  Mr.  Kearney,  and  the  chairman. 

Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  call  Mr.  Burman,  Mr. 
Lawrence  Burman. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Burman,  will  you  hold  up  your  right  hand  and  be 
sworn.  You  solemnly  swear  the  evidence  you  will  give  this  committee 
will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help 
you  God  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  do. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  Mr.  Burman  was  formerly  employed 
by  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  and  is  presently  employed  by 
the  United  States  Atomic  Energy  Commission.  He  testified  before 
the  committee  on  Tuesday,  June  29,  1948,  in  connection  with  uranium 
sales  made  to  the  Soviet  Government.  We  would  like  now  to  ask  him 
some  further  questions. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LAWEENCE  C.  BURMAN 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  state  your  full  name  ? 
Mr.  Burman.  Lawrence  C.  Burman. 
Mr.  Tavenner.  When  and  where  were  you  born  ? 
Mr.  Burman.  In  New  York  City,  February  19,  1912. 
Mr.  Ta^t5nner.  What  is  j^our  present  address? 
Mr.  Burman.  Five  hundred  and  forty-one  East  Twentieth  Street, 
New  York  10. 

957 


958  SHIPMEJNT    OF    ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  your  present  occupation? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  am  director  of  the  Licensing  Division  of  the  United 
States  Atomic  Energy  Commission. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Would  you  please  furnish  the  committee  with  a 
i-esume  of  your  employment  background,  including  any  service  in 
the  United  States  Army  which  you  may  have  had? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yon  want  that  now? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Burman.  I  was  graduated  in  1937  as  a  chemical  engineer  from 
the  City  College  of  New  York.  I  was  employed  by  the  du  Pont  Co. 
in  Wilmington,  Del.,  in  1937  and  1938 ;  and  by  Baker  c*»c  Co.  in  Newark, 
as  a  chemical  engineer  as  well,  in  the  years  1939,  1940.  and  1941.  In 
November  of  1941  I  was  sent  to  War  Production  Board  as  a  specialist 
in  precious  metals,  where  I  was  employed  from  November  1941  to 
November  1942.  In  November  1942  I  activated  a  Reserve  conmiission 
and  was  assigned  to  Manhattan  District.  I  was  with  Manhattan  Dis- 
trict as  a  Reserve  officer  from  November  1942  until  December  1946. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  were  you  with  the  War  Prodriction  Board? 

Mr.  Burman.  From  November  1941  to  November  1942.  It  was 
0PM  part  of  that  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  the  full  title  of  0PM? 

Mr.  Burman.  It  was  Office  of  Production  ^lanagement  from  No- 
vember 1941  to  January  1942,  then  it  was  War  Production  Board,  the 
same  entity,  after  January  1942. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  character  of  your  employment  with 
the  War  Production  Board? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  was  in  charge  of  r;\re  metals,  the  principal  of  which 
was  the  platinum  group,  and  uranium  was  a  minor  metal  assigned 
to  that  branch. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  your  connection  with  that  branch  of  War  Pro- 
duction Board  have  anything  to  do  with  your  assignment  to  Man- 
hattan Engineering  District? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  think  it  did,  partially. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  what  capacity  did  you  serve  with  ]Manhattan 
Engineering  District  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  was  in  charge  of  procurement  of  special  materials, 
special  chemicals,  for  a  time,  and  because  of  mj'  familiarity  with  War 
Production  Board  procedures,  when  Manhattan  District  took  over 
from  War  Production  Board  the  responsibility  for  uranium  control 
we  did  that,  keeping  the  guise  of  War  Production  Board,  pretending 
I  was  a  War  Production  Board  employee  still,  when  necessary,  but 
actually  I  was  an  officer  in  Manhattan  Engineering  District. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  all  the  restrictions  and  controls  which  were 
placed  by  War  Production  Board  on  the  use  of  uranium  were  actually 
handled  through  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes;  the  Manhattan  District  recommended  all  the 
actions  taken  by  War  Production  Board,  and  the  Manhattan  District 
actually  exercised  the  control. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  it  was  the  action  of  War  Production  Board 
rather  than  Manhattan  Engineering  District  that  controlled  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes;  the  War  Production  Board  referred  it  to  us. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  What  agencies  of  the  Government  were  concerned 
with  purchases  and  exportation  of  uranium  compounds  ? 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  959 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  So  far  as  purchases,  only  Manhattan  District  was 
concerned.  There  were  no  restrictions  on  buying  and  selling  of  ura- 
nium compounds  under  War  Production  Board  regulations  except 
that  the  p>urchase  of  uranium  for  coloring  ceramics  was  prohibited. 
That  is,  no  glass-manufacturing  company  or  pottery-manufacturing 
company  could  purchase  uranium  to  color  pottery  with. 

Mr.  Ta'\t:nner.  When  did  that  restriction  become  effective? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  In  January  1943, 

Mr.  Tavexner.  In  what  way  was  Manhattan  Engineering  District 
concerned  with  the  purchase  of  uranium  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  It  bought  all  of  the  uranium  that  was  required  for 
the  Government  atomic-energy  project. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Through  the  influence  of  Manhattan  Engineering 
District,  w^ere  any  controls  set  up  other  than  the  one  you  mentioned 
I'cgarding  the  general  purchase  of  uranium  by  the  public  or  by  foreign 
countries? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Aside  from  the  limitation  on  the  purchase  of  uranium 
for  ceramic  use,  there  was  an  export  control  exercised  then  through 
the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare.  That  is,  an  export  license  would  be 
required  from  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  to  send  uranium  out 
of  the  country. 

Mr.  Tavexner.  What  other  Government  agencies,  if  any,  were  con- 
cerned with  either  the  sales  or  the  exporting  of  uranium,  besides  War 
Pi'oduction  Board,  Manhattan  Engineering  District,  and  Bureau  of 
Elconomic  Warfare  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  None  that  I  can  recall. 

Mr.  Tavex^xer.  In  what  way  was  the  Lend-Lease  Administration 
concerned  in  the  problem  of  handling  uranium  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAx.  Only  to  the  extent  that  Lend-Lease  may  receive  orders 
irom  Allied  countries  for  transfer  of  uranium.  If  they  were  to  re- 
ceive a  request  from  any  of  the  Allied  countries — in  this  case,  of  course, 
it  was  from  U.  S.  S.  R. — it  w^ould  be  handled  in  Lend-Lease  as  any 
other  lend-lease  procurement  would  be  handled.  If  a  nation  requested 
through  Lend-Lease  uranium  procurement,  it  would  be  processed 
through  Lend-Lease. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  I  have  understood  that  the  Bureau  of  Economic 
Warfare  was  the  licensing  agency  for  the  right  to  export  uranium? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  think  that  is  correct ;  yes.  It  was  also  the  practice, 
however,  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  to  consult  with  other 
interested  agencies  in  the  event  they  had  some  item  which  was  of 
obvious  interest,  and  in  this  case,  as  I  recall  it,  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare  and  Lend-Lease  all  channeled  their  requests  for  information 
and  advice  to  the  War  Production  Board.  I  don't  believe  BEW  acted 
independently  in  all  cases,  but  I  can't  say  that  for  a  certainty.  I  don't 
know. 

Mr.  Ta\t3xner.  Are  you  sufficiently  acquainted  with  procedure  to 
state  whether  or  not  it  was  necessary  to  obtain  approval  from  Lend- 
Lease  if  it  was  a  cash  purchase  of  uranium  which  was  being  made,  and 
application  for  export  license  was  made  to  the  Bureau  of  Economic 
Warfare? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  wouldn't  know  that  at  all,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  Even  in  the  case  where  it  was  necessary  to  consult 
Lend-Lease  because  of  the  materials  being  furnished  as  against  lend- 


if 


960  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

lease  quotas,  do  you  know  whether  or  not  it  still  required  that  the 
export  license  be  issued  by  the  Bureau  of  Economic  Warfare? 

Mr.  BuRMAx.  My  belief  is  that  it  would  require  it. 

Mr.  Taat:nxer.  jNIr.  Burman,  in  March  1943,  the  Soviet  Government 
Purchasing  Commission  apj^lied  for  export  licenses  to  export  uranium 
and  uranium  compounds  to  the  Soviet  Union.  Are  you  familiar  with 
details  concerning  the  sale  of  200  pounds  of  uranium  oxide  and  220 
pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  to  the  Soviet  Government  early  in  1943? 

JNIr.  Burman.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  what  you  know  about  that  transaction. 

JNIr.  Bueman.  The  Manhattan  District  was  just  then  starting  to 
exercise  its  control  over  uranium  which  it  didn't  own  itself,  and  we 
were  suddenly  confronted  with  a  lend-lease  order  for  that  quantity 
of  material  which  had  been  processed,  we  understood,  through  lend- 
lease  channels,  and  a  potential  supplier  had  been  consulted  and  it  had 
been  determined  that  the  supply  was  immediately  available  for  delivery 
by  this  supplier.  I  believe  someone,  as  an  afterthought,  suddenly  de- 
cided to  consult  War  Production  Board  to  see  if  it  was  all  right,  it  not 
being  generally  known  that  uranium  was  anything  more  than  of  normal 
interest.  When  War  Production  Board  was  consulted,  they  sent  the 
information  on  to  us  at  Xew  York,  to  the  Manhattan  District,  and  it 
was  finally  decided,  after,  I  believe,  considerable  consultation,  that  the 
project  had  gone  so  far,  and  it  was  known  the  material  was  available 
at  this  company  in  Denver,  that  it  wovdcl  be  rather  pointing  a  finger 
at  the  matei'ial  if  the  license  was  refused  at  so  late  a  elate,  and  General 
Groves  then  authorized  the  issuance  of  the  license  through  his  own 
office,  and  the  material  was  quickly  shipped. 

Mr.  Ta\'enxer.  Manhattan  Engineering  District  first  acquired 
knowledge  of  that  transaction  through  the  War  Production  Board;  is 
that  what  I  understand  you  to  say? 

Mr.  BuR]\rAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  Bureau  of  Economic 
Warfare,  or  Lend-Lease  Administration,  at  that  time,  knew  that  there 
was  an  active  uranium  project  any  place  within  the  United  States 
Government  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  couldn't  say  at  all  as  regards  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare,  but  Lend-Lease  must  certainly  have  been  a  little  surprised  by 
the  sudden  importance  of  so  small  an  order  in  Government  circles.  It 
would  certainly  hint  broadly  that  the  material  had  more  than  ordinary 
value. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  there  anything  in  your  negotiations,  or  those  of 
any  other  official  of  jNIanhattan  Engineering  District,  with  Lend-Lease 
officials,  indicating  that  they  did  not  know  prior  to  that  time  that  this 
material  was  of  strategic  importance  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  There  was  nothing  to  indicate  that  they  knew  it  was 
of  any  special  importance,  to  the  best  of  my  memory,  and  I  believe 
that  that  is  the  case. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  After  you  learned  of  the  first  sale  of  uranium  prod- 
ucts to  the  Russian  Government,  do  you  recall  what  arrangements  were 
placed  in  effect  in  the  United  States  bv  the  Manhattan  Engineering 
Disti-ict  to  control  the  sale  of  uranium  products  to  the  Soviet  Govern- 
ment? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes.  We  took  rather  strong  measures  after  that  to  be 
sure  that  we  had  material  where  we  could  put  our  hands  on  it. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  961 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  What  were  those  arrangements  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  For  one  thing,  we  arranged  with  a  contractor,  not 
using  the  Manhattan  District  name,  for  this  contractor  to  pnrchase 
all  he  could  of  stocks  of  uranium  in  the  hands  of  pottery  manufac- 
turers and  anywhere  else  where  it  might  be  subject  to  resale.  This 
contractor  bought  material  from  the  chemical  companies  and 
scrounged  around  in  industry  to  collect  odd  lots. 

Mr.  Taa^xner.  Who  was  that  contractor  ? 

]\Ir.  BuRMAN.  Vitro  Manufacturing  Co.,  of  Pittsburgh.  Vitro  was 
the  prime  source  of  uranium  in  that  they  had  for  some  years  processed 
uranium  ores  from  the  Colorado  area.  We  entered  into  a  gentle- 
men's agreement  that  they  would  sell  no  uranium  except  to  Manhat- 
tan District,  and  they  were  under  contract  with  the  district  at  the 
same  time  for  a  variety  of  work. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  discover  at  any  time  in  the  future  that 
they  had  violated  that  gentlemen's  agreement  by  selling  uranium  to 
other  purchasers? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No.  So  far  as  we  know  they  never  did.  As  a  matter 
of  fact,  they  ceased  their  own  operations  at  that  time  with  uranium 
and  worked  exclusively  in  that  business  for  the  district.  The  Shat- 
tuck  Chemical  Co.,  in  Denver,  was  also  a  processor  of  uranium  ores, 
and,  representing  myself  as  War  Production  Board,  and  I  guess  Dr. 
Merritt  talked  to  Shattuck  as  well.  Mr.  Potter,  of  Shattuck,  agreed 
they  would  not  make  any  deliveries  of  uranium  anywhere  without 
the  permission  of  the  War  Production  Board,  ostensibly,  and  as  far 
as  we  know  Mr.  Potter  niade  no  shipments  that  were  not  approved 
in  advance  thereafter. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Could  you  legally  demand  that  no  sales  of  uranium 
be  made  by  Shattuck  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No,  we  could  not.  It  was  a  cooperative  measure  on 
their  part.  Mr.  Potter  had  his  inklings  as  to  the  potentialities  of 
uranium,  because  of  his  acquaintanceship  with  the  material  and  what 
he  had  read  earlier  in  the  press  in  the  pre-Manhattan  District  days. 
He  knew  of  the  potentialities  of  uranium  235,  and  he  agreed  not  to 
make  shipments  that  were  not  approved  in  advance. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  was  that  agreement  reached? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Immediately  after  the  200-  and  220-pound  shipments. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  the  matter  handled  with  Mr.  Potter  by  letter, 
by  telephone,  or  by  personal  interview  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Both  by  letter  and  telephone  to  start  with,  and 
followed  up  by  personal  visits  periodically  thereafter. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  not  certain  that  I  heard  the  date  when  that 
agreement  was  reached  with  Mr.  Potter  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  It  was  immediately  after  the  200-pound  and  the  220- 
pound  order  was  placed  with  Shattuck,  right  after  the  delivery  was 
made.  The  first  information  which  we  gave  to  Mr.  Potter  when  it  was 
decided  that  the  420-pound  shipment  would  go  forward,  was  to  tell 
Mr.  Potter  that  he  might  find  it  difficult  in  the  future  to  get  any 
export  licenses  for  other  shipments  of  uranium  out  of  the  country. 
We  had  also  talked  to  him  by  telephone  and  had  his  verbal  agreement 
not  to  do  anything  until  somebody  from  War  Production  Board 
stopped  to  see  him,  and  War  Production  Board  was  ourselves. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  trying  to  fix  more  definitely  the  time  when 
that  agreement  was  reached. 

99334—50 5 


962  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  can't  give  the  exact  date.  It  was  either  February 
or  March  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  you  certain  that  it  was  prior  to  the  time  that 
the  matter  regarding  another  export  license  was  raised  by  Lend- 
Lease  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  I  am  certain  that  it  was. 

Mr.  Taat:nner.  Did  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  en- 
deavor to  interview  other  suppliers  of  uranium  and  warn  them  against 
shipping  out  of  the  United  States? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  We  had  a  contractual  arrangement  with  the  repre- 
sentatives of  the  Belgian  producers,  and  while  I  can't  say  definitely 
that  there  was  a  written  agreement  for  them  not  to  sell  elsewhere,  I 
feel  pretty  certain  that  some  agreement  did  exist.  The  Manhattan 
District  purchased,  in  early  1943  or  late  1942,  the  stock  of  material 
which  was  lying  in  the  warehouses  here  which  might  have  gone  to  the 
ceramic  trade,  since  the  Belgians  were  shipping  to  the  ceramic  trade 
in  those  days. 

Mr.  Tavexner.  What  was  the  name  of  the  Belgian  company? 

Mr.  Burmax.  In  1942  they  had  one  representative  known  as  the 
Central  Trading  Co.,  which  was  dissolved,  and  later  the  work  was 
taken  over  by  the  African  IMetals  Corp. 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  Then  I  understand  the  ^Manhattan  Engineering 
District  acquired  their  supply  in  the  United  States? 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  Their  warehouse  stock  of  ceramic-type  uranium 
compounds.     There  was  also  the  Canadian  source  of  material. 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  Before  we  come  to  that,  let  me  ask  you :  Can  you 
be  positive  that  the  Belgian  company  was  interviewed  regarding 
the  supplying  of  uranium  compounds  for  the  export  trade? 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  I  can  say  positively  because  I  am  certain  it  was  done, 
but  I  myself  did  not  do  it. 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  WTio  did  do  it,  in  your  opinion  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAx.  I  believe  Dr.  Merritt  can  give  you  the  full  details 
of  that. 

Mr.  TA^^:xxER.  You  were  about  to  mention  another  supplier. 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  The  Canadian  Eadium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  which  is 
a  United  States  company,  was  sales  representative  of  Eldorado  Min- 
ing &  Refining  Co.  The  Eldorado  Mining  &  Refining  Co.  is  the 
producer  of  uranium  at  Great  Bear  Lake.  In  the  same  manner  in 
which  we  had  purchased  these  other  miscellaneous  types  of  ceramic 
uranium,  we  had  made  a  contract  with  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium 
to  i)ick  up  their  warehouse  quantity  of  uranium  oxide  and  nitrate, 
and  so  forth,  and  the  contract  had  a  provision  in  it  whereby  the  district 
A\ould  have  first  call  for  the  period  of  a  year  against  any  other 
uranium  that  that  company  had  to  sell  of  the  same  types. 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  What  was  the  date  of  the  contract  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  In  March  1943.  I  can't  tell  you  the  exact  date  in 
the  month,  but  I  am  sure  it  was  in  March  1943. 

jNIr.  Tavexxer.  Is  that  contract  accessible  to  you  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  Yes.    It  is  in  the  Commission  files,  however. 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  Could  you  produce  it  for  the  committee? 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  I  don't  know  whether  I  am  able  to  do  so.  It  is  a 
classified  document.    It  is  still  classified  secret. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  963 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  to  investigate  that  and 
see  if  it  can  be  declassified  and  turned  over  to  this  committee,  and 
advise  me  of  the  result  of  your  inquiry. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes ;  I  will  do  so. 

Mr.  Tavekner.  I  would  like  for  you  first  to  identify  the  date  a, 
little  more  definitely  if  you  can. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  know  it  is  in  March  1943,  and  to  hazard  a  guess  as 
to  the  date,  I  would  say  about  the  27th. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  contract  is  between  the  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  and  what  other  party  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Who  were  the  ofhcials  of  that  corporation  at  that 
time? 

Mr.  BuRiviAN.  Mr.  Boris  Pregel  was  the  president  of  the  company. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  the  names  of  other  officials  of  the 
company  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Alexander  Pregel  was  vice  president.  Beyond  that, 
I  can't  recall  any  other  officers  of  the  company. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Had  that  company,  prior  to  March  1943,  furnished 
quantities  of  uranium  to  Manhattan  Engineering  District? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes.    We  bought  it  wherever  we  could  find  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  continue  in  your  purchases  from  that  cor- 
poration after  March  1943  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Well,  we  continued  to  have  relations  with  that  com- 
pany, but  they  were  reduced  from  time  to  time  in  their  scope  until 
they  practically  vanished.  I  can't  tell  you  over  what  period  of  time 
that  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  j^ou  confer  with  this  company,  the  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  or  its  president,  Mr.  Boris  Pregel,  or  its 
vice  president,  Mr.  Alexander  Pregel,  regarding  the  shipment  of 
uranium  compounds  out  of  this  country  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No.  I  was  not  myself  in  direct  contact  with  Mr. 
Pregel.  I  believe  Dr.  Merritt  can  give  you  that  information,  because 
it  was  his  responsibility  to  deal  with  Mr.  Pregel. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  see.  I  was  asking  you  what  arrangement  or  ar- 
rangements were  made  to  stop  the  flow  of  uranium  to  foreign  coun- 
tries during  the  war  period,  and  you  told  me  about  those  two  arrange- 
ments, the  interviewing  of  Shattuck  Co.  and  other  suppliers.  Now, 
I  notice  on  the  export  license  of  this  shipment  from  the  Shattuck  Co. 
that  the  supplier  was  Chematar,  Inc. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  interview  that  company? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No:  we  did  not. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Why  didn't  you  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  We  didn't  think  we  could  learn  anything  that  we 
didn't  already  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  they  were  acting  certainly  as  an  agent  or 
as  a  broker  for  the  purchase  of  this  material.  It  seems  to  have  been 
of  importance  to  have  consulted  with  them  likewise. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes.  The  Chematar  Co.  was  in  contact  with  War 
Production  Board  in  Washington,  the  branch  which  was  ostensibly  in 
control  of  uranium,  and  was  pressing  for  approval  of  the  license,  and 


964  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

we  did  receive  copies  of  the  correspondence  and  learn  the  information 
we  needed.    What  we  were  interested  in  most  was  where  it  was  going. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  Yes;  but  yon  were  not  protecting  the  outflow  by 
merely  learning  what  was  in  their  correspondence.  I  am  asking  what 
arrangements  were  made  to  stop  the  export  of  uranium. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  In  the  case  of  the  420-pound  order  it  was  agreed  it 
should  be  permitted  to  go  forward.  We  had  the  material  blocked 
through  the  available  sources  of  supply,  we  thought. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  any  action  taken  by  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  with  other  Government  agencies  designed  to  control  the  ex- 
l^orting  to  a  foreign  country  of  uranium  compounds  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  We  did  have  a  Washington  office.  The  officer  in 
charge  of  that  office  was  in  contact  with  all  of  the  Washington  bureaus. 
I  can't  say  what  steps  he  took,  but  he  was  the  man  in  direct  contact 
w4th  Lend-Lease  and  presumably  with  BEW  when  any  cases  of  this 
sort  arose,  and  we  felt  that  so  far  as  raw  materials  went,  we  had  it 
stopped  at  the  source. 

Mr.  Ta-stenner.  Who  was  the  individual  in  the  Washington  office 
to  whom  you  refer  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Col.  A.  C.  Johnson. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  He  has  testified  before  this  committee,  has  he  not  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  believe  he  has. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  any  arrangements  made  with  any  Govern- 
ment agency  by  which  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  was  to  be 
notified  in  the  event  of  the  filing  of  an  application  for  license  or  for 
approval  of  a  license  for  the  shipment  of  uranium  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  believe  Colonel  Johnson  had  such  an  arrangement. 
Where  the  word  "uranium"  would  pop  up  in  various  Government 
offices,  I  believe  there  was  a  tickler  in  the  case  to  notify  Johnson. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  say  you  believe  so.  That  is  rather  important. 
What  actual  knowledge  do  you  have  of  that  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  know  that  when  anybody  was  looking  for  uranium 
he  either  wound  up  in  Colonel  Johnson's  office  or  in  our  office  in  New 
York,  and  would  be  referred  there  by  the  War  Production  Board,  by 
field  offices,  or  by  the  other  agencies. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  details  surrounding  the 
issuance  of  another  export  license  for  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate 
and  500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide,  which  was  issued  to  the  Soviet 
Government  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  know  of  it  now.  I  was  not  aware  of  it  when  I  testi- 
fied earlier. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  did  not  know  at  the  time  that  such  a  license  had 
been  issued  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  know  at  the  time  that  an  application  had 
been  made  by  this  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  for  the  issuance  of 
such  a  license  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  No;  I  didn't.  I  had  known  of  at  least  one  earlier 
request  that  was  floating  around  Lend-Lease  for  Si/o  tons  of  material. 
I  know  that  was  turned  down.  I  did  not  know  of  the  request  for  a 
1,000-pound  license. 

Mr.  Ta\"enner.  Did  you  learn  during  the  course  of  your  employ- 
ment that  during  the  month  of  April  1943  a  plan  was  discussed  within 
Manhattan  Engineering  District  by  which  a  license  would  be  approved 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  965 

to  export  uranium,  with  the  idea  of  testing  out  the  So^det  Commission 
in  its  ability  to  locate  the  material  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  didn't  know  of  it  then,  but  I  have  heard  of  it  now  and 
have  seen  some  of  the  records. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  assume,  then,  from  your  answers,  that  you  had  no 
conference  with  any  official  of  Lend-Lease  or  the  Bureau  of  Economic 
Warfare  relating  to  that  particular  license  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  right.  I  may  add  at  this  point,  this  was  only 
a  part-time  job  which  took  about  5  percent  of  my  time,  and  that  we  were 
busy  on  many  other  production  problems.  This  job  had  only  been 
acquired  because  of  the  earlier  War  Production  Board  contracts. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  Regardless  of  the  fact  that  you  were  not  acquainted 
with  any  effort  to  obtain  the  issuance  of  this  particular  license  for  the 
500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate,  were 
you  aware  of  any  pressure  being  brought  on  yourself  or  other  members 
of  the  staff  of  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  by  officials  of  the 
Lend-Lease  Administration  or  officials  of  the  Bureau  of  Economic 
Warfare  to  issue  licenses  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No.  I  was  not  aware  of  any  such  pressure  at  any 
time.  The  only,  it  might  be  called  pressure,  was  a  series  of  telephone 
calls  in  relation  to  the  420-pound  order  from  the  War  Production 
Board  and  Lend-Lease,  and  Chematar  was  in  touch  with  War  Produc- 
tion Board  by  telephone  periodically,  and  War  Production  Board  in 
Washington  would  call  us  in  New  York  to  get  something  done. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  To  do  what  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  To  get  something  done. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  came  from  War  Production  Board  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  came  from  the  War  Production  Board  office 
which  was  theoretically  in  charge  of  uranium,  but  since  they  were 
sitting  in  the  middle  tliey  would  transfer  these  urgent  requests  from 
Chematar  or  Lend-Lease  to  us. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  State  more  fully  what  you  mean  by  saying  you 
were  urged  to  get  something  done. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  To  get  a  decision  one  way  or  another,  because  this 
had  been  hanging  fire  for  a  considerable  time,  much  longer  than  ordi- 
nary. I  believe  they  were  about  to  issue  the  original  license  when  it 
was  held  up  because  they  were  trying  to  get  a  decision  out  of  Man- 
hattan District. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  is  the  license  for  the  420  pounds  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  were  the  individuals  from  whom  telephone 
calls  were  received  from  Lend-Lease  and  any  of  the  other  Government 
agencies  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  don't  recall  specifically  talking  to  any  of  the  Lend- 
Lease  people  myself,  but  the  Chematar  people  had  been  in,  telephone 
contact  with  Mr.  Lund  and  Mr.  Parks  in  War  Production  Board,  and 
Mr.  Parks,  through  error,  I  believe,  gave  Mr.  Rosenberg  of  Chematar 
my  telephone  number  in  New  York.  The  Manhattan  District  as  such 
tried  to  stay  out  of  those  things,  it  was  not  to  be  known  that  Manhat- 
tan District  was  directly  involved,  so  that  I,  myself,  I  don't  believe 
talked  to  any  of  these  gentlemen. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  that  occurred  at  some  time 
quite  a  few  months  later  than  the  transaction  we  are  talking  about? 


966  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  BuEMAN.  No.    It  was  in  the  February  1943  period  in  relation 

to  tlie  420  pounds. 

INIr.  TA\T.]srNER.  "V\niat  was  the  nature  of  your  telephone  conversation 
with  Mr.  Rosenberg  or  Chematar? 

Mr,  BuRMAN.  I  didn't  actually  receive  that  telephone  call.  I  was 
away  and  another  officer,  as  I  recall,  talked  with  him  and  told  him  that 
was  a  mistake  of  some  sort,  that  he  had  Lieutenant  Burman's  tele- 
phone number  only  because  Burman  used  to  be  with  War  Production 
Board.  That  cut  off  short  any  idea  that  Lieutenant  Burman  of  New 
York  was  interested  in  uranium. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  was  the  person  who  took  the  call  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  believe  it  was  Colonel  Crenshaw. 

Mr.  Tavenxer.  1  was  asking  you  if  you  knew  the  names  of  officials 
in  the  various  Government  agencies  who  called  your  office  with  regard 
to  the  releasing  of  this  first  shipment. 

Mr.  Btjrman.  I  don't  recall  just  who  telephoned,  but  we  did  receive, 
through  War  Production  Board  in  Washington,  correspondence  from 
Lend-Lease  and  Chematar.  Chematar  correspondence  was  in  the 
name  of  Mr.  Rosenberg,  and  Lend-Lease  correspondence  in  the  name 
of  Mr.  Moore,  I  believe ;  that  is  the  only  name  I  can  recall ;  I  believe 
there  was  somebody  else  corresponding  on  the  subject. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  as  to  telephone  calls,  have  you  any  recollection? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  assure  it  was  the  same  gentlemen.  I  don't  know, 
since  I  didn't  talk  to  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  AVere  you  conscious,  at  any  time  after  this  first 
transaction  was  closed,  of  any  unusual  activity,  or  any  activity,  with 
regard  to  the  officials  of  other  agencies  in  urging  approval  of  ship- 
m.ents  of  uranium  to  any  allied  power  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  No,  sir;  none. 

Mr.  Case.  To  what  are  you  referring  when  you  refer  to  an  8^-ton 
request  that  was  turned  down  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  There  was  a  U.  S.  S.  R.  request  through  Lend-Lease 
channels  for  81/9  tons  of  uranium  material  which  was  processed  by 
Chemical  Warfare  Service. 

Mr.  Case.  When  was  that  request  made  ? 

Mr.  BuRMi\N.  Shortly  after  the  420-pound  shipment  and  prior  to  the 
date  of  the  1,000-pound  shipment. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  a  rather  complete  record  on 
that  transaction  which  will  be  introduced  later. 

Mr.  Case.  You  asked  if  he  knew  of  any  other  activity  and  he  said  he 
didn't  recall  any. 

Mr.  Burman!  I  am  sorry.  That  request  did  go  through  War  Pro- 
duction Board  channels,  and  that  was,  as  I  recall,  refused,  and  the 
information  was  passed  to  Lend-Lease  through  our  Washington  office. 

Mr.  Case.  And  who  turned  it  down  ? 

Mr.  Bukman.  I  assume  it  was  turned  down  by  General  Groves,  since 
Colonel   Johnson   was   immediately   on   General   Groves'   staff   and 
handled  such  matters. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not,  as  a  result  of  General 
Groves'  recommendation,  the  Secretary  of  War,  to  whom  the  matter 
had  in  the  meantime  been  referred,  made  the  final  decision  refusing  to 
release  the  shipment? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  just  don't  know,  sir. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  967 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  the  course  of  your  employment  with  the  Man- 
hattan Engineering  District,  did  any  fact  or  circumstance  come  to  your 
knowledge  and  attention  which  indicated  that  any  pressure  was  being 
brought  to  bear  by  any  Government  official,  or  by  any  person  out  of 
the  Government,  on  your  staif  to  approve  the  shipment  of  uranium 
compounds  out  of  the  country? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  We  had  no  such  information  at  all,  sir.  We  know 
of  no  such  pressure. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  After  this  first  shipment  that  you  referred  to  from 
the  Shattuck  Co.,  were  any  other  shipments  made  of  uranium,  to  your 
knowledge? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Only  the  1,000-pound  shipment  which  we  later 
learned  of. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  you  first  learn  of  the  shipment  of  the 
thousand  pounds? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  We  had  heard  about  it  here  in  June  1948  and  went 
back  and  checked  more  fully  with  the  Canadian  authorities,  their 
records  on  the  case,  and  we  learned  that  a  Canadian  export  license 
was  actually  issued  and  that  the  material  was  shipped. 

Mr.  TA^^ENNER.  What  was  the  source  of  supply  of  the  corporation 
you  refer  to  as  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Their  source  of  supply  was  the  Canadian  Great  Bear 
Lake  mines.  Eldorado  Gold  Mine  Co.  was  the  company;  Eldorado 
Mining  &  Refining  Co.,  it  later  became. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  the  Eldorado  Gold  Mine  Co.  make  a  report  of 
any  character  that  you  are  familiar  with  that  would  show  the  ship- 
ment that  you  have  referred  to  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No.  That  is  a  company  which  is  entirely  in  Canada 
and  would  not  make  such  a  report. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  such  a  report  was 
made  by  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  of  shipments  ema- 
nating from  Eldorado  mines  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  We  have  checked  our  files,  the  old  War  Production 
files,  and  can  say  that  there  is  no  report  by  Canadian  Radium  of  that 
shipment. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  least  you  did  not  know  of  it  at  the  time  you 
were  employed  by  Manhattan  Engineering  District? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  any  contact  made  with  Eldorado  Gold  Mines 
with  reference  to  supplying  material  to  governments  other  than  the 
United  States  and  Canada  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  don't  know.  I  believe  there  was,  but  Dr.  Merritt 
can  tell  you  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  AVhen  you  said  you  first  learned  here  that  the 
1,000-pouncl  shipment  had  been  made,  what  did  you  mean? 

Mr.  Burman.  We  just  had  no  information  on  it  in  the  New  York 
office  up  to  that  time.  All  of  the  activity  that  we  have  talked  over 
was  carried  on  out  of  New  York  for  the  Manhattan  District.  It 
wasn't  always  possible  to  Imow  what  the  Washington  office  was  think- 
ing or  doing. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  You  have  since  confirmed  the  fact  that  the  shipment 
was  actually  made  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes,  sir. 


968  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  sales  of  uranium  to  the 
Soviet  Government,  other  tlian  the  two  which  we  have  mentioned? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes.  There  was  a  small  shipment  of  uranium  metal 
which  was  permitted  to  go  to  Russia  about  the  middle  of  1944.  At  the 
time  that  the  order  had  been  first  placed  for  the  420  pounds  of  uranium 
compounds,  the  same  order  carried  a  request  for  25  pounds  of  uranium 
metal.  I  understood  that  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal  were  also  au- 
thorized for  shipment,  but  as  far  as  we  knew  at  that  time  there  was 
no  uranium  metal  available  in  the  United  States  that  they  could 
lay  their  hands  on.  That  was  the  fact  of  the  matter.  But  the  order 
was  placed,  eventually,  with  A.  D.  McKay,  a  well-known  supply  house 
in  New  York  which  specializes  in  rare  minerals  and  metals.  McKay 
accepted  the  order  conditionally,  that  he  would  ship  it  if  he  could 
get  it  made  somewhere,  and  for  a  year  and  a  half  he  tried  to  have  it 
made.  It  is  rather  a  difficult  process  and  requires  specialized  equip- 
ment. In  all  of  his  efforts  to  have  it  made,  acting  as  a  representative 
of  the  War  Production  Board,  I  was  looking  over  his  shoulder  all 
the  time.  He  finally  did  succeed  in  having  about  4.5  pounds  of  rather 
poor  uranium  metal  made  by  a  laboratory  in  Cleveland.  We  had  a 
sample  of  the  uraniinn  metal  analyzed,  and  it  was  far  poorer  than  if 
they  had  taken  just  pure  uranium  oxide  to  start  with  and  not  tried  to 
make  the  metal. 

We  told  McKay  we  would  have  no  objection  to  his  shipping  a 
small  sample  of  this  metal  as  representative  of  what  was  available  in 
the  United  States,  and  he  actually  shipped  a  kilogram — that  is,  2.2 
pounds — against  the  25-pound  order.  The  rest  of  the  material  he 
kept  in  his  stock  and  sold  in  gi'am  quantities,  which  he  reported  to 
War  Production  Board  monthly,  to  universities  and  other  laboratories 
in  the  country. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  did  not  file  a 
repeat  order  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  was  the  last  we  heard  of  uranium  metal  from 
that  point. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Burman,  have  you  been  apprised  of  the  fact 
that  there  was  a  sale  of  45  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  to  the  Soviet 
Government  in  June  1944? 

Mr.  Burman.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  of  any  sales  of  heavy  water  to  the 
Soviet  Government  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  No.  Our  office  had  no  contact  with  heavy  water 
distribution ;  that  is,  my  own  office  did  not. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  office  would  have  been  consulted,  if  any  had 
been,  in  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  General  Groves'  office. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who,  in  particular,  in  that  office  would  have  received 
knowledge  of  such  a  request  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Colonel  Johnson,  I  am  sure. 

Mr.  Ta^^nner.  Were  there  any  restrictions  imposed  upon  the  export 
of  heavy  water  by  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  through  its 
connection  with  War  Production  Board  ? 

INIr.  Burman.  I  just  don't  know,  sir.  I  am  not  familiar  with  the 
manner  in  which  the  heavy-water  sales  were  handled. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Isn't  that  a  matter  which  would  have  normally 
come  under  your  supervision  had  it  occurred  ? 


T'v;.: 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC   MATERIAL  969 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No ;  it  wouldn't.  Our  office  was  essentially  a  uranium- 
procuring  and  processing  office  in  New  York. 

Mr.  Tavexner.  Can  you  tell  us  whether  there  is  any  difference 
between  uranium  metal  and  fused  uranium  metal? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes ;  there  is  some.  Most  of  the  early  uranium  metal 
appeared  in  the  form  of  powder,  and  when  the  powder  was  melted 
later  it  came  out  in  the  form  of  globules,  vrhich  was  known  as  the 
fused  metal.  It  was  easier  to  remelt  the  fused  globules  than  the 
powder.    The  powder  would  flash  into  flames  in  the  air. 

Mr.  Tavenner.    Do  you  have  any  knowledge  of  the  shipment  to  I''" 

Soviet  Russia  of  fused  uranium  metal  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.   I  believe  the  kilogram — that  is,  2.2  pounds — was  in  },  ' 

the  form  of  fused  metal,  but  no  other  shipments,  however.  %,- 

JNIr.  Tavenxer.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman.  |^^>V 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Harrison  ?  '• '  ■ 

Mr.  Harrison.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Mc Sweeney  ? 

Mr.  IMcSwEENEY.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Moulder? 

Mr.  Moulder.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Nixon  ? 

Mr.  Nixon.  As  I  understand  it,  in  your  position  you  generally  had 
knowledge  of  requests  for  material  of  this  type,  the  420-pound  and 
1,000-pound  shipments.  Would  you  assume  in  your  position  you 
generally  would  be  informed  of  such  shipments? 

Mr.  BuRMAx\  The  420-pound  shipment  was  being  handled  through 
our  War  Production  Board  contacts,  and  I  would  know  of  that. 

Mr.  NixON.  Your  office  was  not*  a  clearinghouse  for  all  shipments, 
necessarily  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No. 

Mr.  NixoN.  You  came  into  the  420-pound  shipment  because  your 
office  was  informed  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN^.  No.  We  came  in  it  because  War  Production  Board 
was  questioned  about  the  advisability  of  shipping  it,  and  they  got 
in  touch  with  the  New  York  office.  t 

Mr.  NixoN.  Why  was  it  the  1,000-pound  shipment  was  not  handled 
in  the  same  way? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  It  had  never,  so  far  as  we  knew,  gone  through  War  ;.' 

Production  Board  channels  or  ourselves  in  New  York. 

Mr.  NixON.  It  had  gone  through  private  channels  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No.  I  beileve  it  may  have  gone  directly  from  Lend- 
Lease  to  General  Groves'  office,  and  that  the  War  Production  Board 
was  not  consulted. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  said  you  learned  of  this  shipment  for  the  first  time 
when?    I  am  referring  to  the  1,000-pound  shipment. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  June  1948. 

]\Ir.  Nixon.  At  that  time  what  was  your  position  ? 

ISIr.  BuRMAN.  I  was  with  the  Atomic  Energy  Commission. 

Mr.  Nixon.  The  Atomic  Energy  Commission  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  don't  mean  the  Atomic  Energy  Commission  did 
not  learn  about  it  until  then;  do  you?  Was  this  their  first  knowledge 
of  this  1,000-pound  shipment? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes,  sir. 


!'■'..■ 


970  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Nixon.  They  had  not  known  of  it  before  then  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Were  you  surprised  to  learn  of  it  then  ? 

Mr.  BuEMAN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  were  surprised? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Why  ? 

Mr.  BrRMAN.  Because  we  never  suspected  the  shipment  had  taken 
place.  We  thought  we  would  have  known  had  it  taken  place,  and  we 
thought  we  had  the  Canadian  supply  shut  off  back  in  1943. 

Mr.  Nixon.  In  other  words,  if  this  shipment  had  gone  through 
your  office  you  would  have  disapproved  it ;  would  you  not,  apparently^ 
from  what  you  said  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  myself  would  have  disapproved  it;  but  in  a  case 
of  tliat  sort  it  still  would  have  been  referred  to  General  Groves'  office. 

Mr.  Nixon.  But,  as  you  understood  the  policy,  the  policy  after  the 
420-pound  shipment  was  to  shut  off  all  available  sources  of  supply  so 
that  additional  shipments  could  not  be  made  ? 

Mr.  BuEMAN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nixon.  What  agencies  in  the  United  States,  if  any,  did  have 
the  responsibility  for  clearing  the  1,000-pound  shipment? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  believe  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  issuing  the 
license,  would  have  the  final  responsibility. 

Mr.  Nixon.  The  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  did  issue  a  license? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  can  testify  to  that  of  your  own  knowledge  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Who  in  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  handled  the 
matter;  do  you  know? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Was  any  memorandum  or  other  order  issued,  for  in- 
stance to  BEW,  that  Manhattan  Engineering  District  should  be  in- 
formed of  such  shij)ments? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  believe  Colonel  Johnson's  office  did  have  that  under- 
standing with  BEW. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Yet  BEW  apparently  cleared  the  shipment  without  con- 
sulting Colonel  Johnson's  office? 

Mr.  BuRMAX.  No.  It  was  our  understanding  it  was  approved  by 
Colonel  Johnson's  office  with  approval  by  General  Groves;  that  Gen- 
eral Groves  did  approve  the  license  for  shipment  of  1,000  pounds  with 
the  belief  that  we  did  have  all  the  sources  of  supply  cut  off. 

Mr.  Nixon.  When  did  you  first  find  out  about  the  1,000-pound  ship- 
ment, from  what  source? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  From  right  here. 

Mr.  Nixon.  From  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nixon.  One  other  question.  You  are  an  expert,  of  course,  and 
most  of  us  are  laymen.  As  far  as  the  use  of  uranium  for  commercial 
purposes  other  than  for  the  manufacture  of  atomic  energy  and  atomic 
products,  do  I  understand  that  420  pounds  would  be  considered  to  be 
a  large  order  or  a  small  order  ?     In  what  category  would  you  place  it? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  It  would  not  be  large  enough  to  excite  any  attention. 
The  consumption  of  uranium  in  1942  for  nonatomic  purposes  in  the 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  971 

United  States  was  between  150  and  200  tons  for  the  year,  so  that  420 
pounds  woukl  be  rather  small. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Has  the  Atomic  Energy  Commission  established  whether 
the  Soviet  Union,  prior  to  1943,  obtained  shipments  of  that  size  or  less 
than  that  size  from  the  United  States,  prior  to  the  time  the  orders 
were  issued  not  to  approve  such  shipments? 

Mr.  BuEMAN.  It  would  be  very  unlikely  that  they  would  get  it  from 
the  United  States,  since  the  United  States  was  not  a  producer  of  the 
material.  The  material  was  more  readily  available  from  Belgium 
a;id  Canada. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  would  seem  to  me,  that  in  the  investigation  the 
Atomic  Energy  Commission  has  been  making,  that  would  be  a  rele- 
vant point :  how  large  the  orders  were  in  the  past.  I  believe  you  have 
indicated  you  were  interested  in  knowing  whether  the  Soviet  Union 
at  that  time  was  as  far  along  in  the  development  of  the  atomic  bomb 
as  we  were  ? 

Mr.  BuRiNiAN.  We  did  ask  for  records  of  sales  of  domestic  com- 
panies for  a  number  of  years  prior  to  1943. 
Mr.  Nixon.  What  did  you  find  out  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  There  was  no  evidence  of  any  purchases  in  the  United 
States. 

Mr.  Nixon.  There  was  no  evidence  of  purchases  prior  to  1943  in  the 
United  States? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  So  it  would  seem  to  me  this  sudden  interest  in  the  pur- 
chase of  uranium  would  have  some  definite  significance  ? 
Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes ;  it  would. 

Mr.  Nixon.  This  turning  down  of  the  Si/o-ton  order,  who  did  the 
turning  down  ?     General  Groves  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  believe  General  Groves'  office. 
Mr.  Nixon.  Did  your  office  have  anytliing  to  do  with  that? 
Mr.  BmjMAN.  I  believe  we  referred  it  to  General  Groves'  office,  hav- 
ing received  information  on  it  through  the  trade  and  through  the  War 
Production  Board. 
Mr.  Nixon.  Through  the  trade  ? 
Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  they  wanted  8I/2  tons? 
Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  you  proceeded  to  forward  that  information  to  Gen- 
eral Groves'  office  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Who  was  attempting  to  obtain  this  for  the  Soviet  Union, 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes.  I  believe  it  was  through  Lend-Lease.  There 
was  no  private  company  handling  it. 

Mr.  Nixon.  The  American  agency  seeking  to  expedite  the  shipment 
was  Lend-Lease? 
Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Did  BEW  have  anything  to  do  with  that? 
Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  don't  believe  so. 
Mr.  Nixon.  With  expediting? 
Mr.  BuRMAN.  No. 
Mr.  Nixon.  I  understand  it  was  8i/^  long  tons  ? 


972  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  don't  know  if  it  was  Syo  long  or  short  tons.  It  was 
of  one  of  the  uranium  compounds,  not  of  metal. 

Mr.  Nixon.  What  contacts  were  made  with  your  office  by  Lend- 
Lease  to  get  clearance  for  the  Si/^-ton  shipment ;  do  you  recall  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  believe  they  went  to  the  Chemical  Warfare  procure- 
ment office,  and  either  the  New  York  or  Pittsburgh  office  of  Chemical 
Warfare  procurement  got  in  touch  with  Vitro  and  also  managed  to 
find  INIanhattan  District,  but  we  gave  them  no  information. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Eight  and  one-half  tons  would  be  a  significant  amount 
to  purchase? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes ;  it  would  be. 

Mr.  Nixon.  But  you  indicate  that  you  don't  know  of  any  particular 
individuals  who  were  contacting  you  in  regard  to  that  shipment? 

Mr.  BuR3iAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Case. 

Mr.  Case.  Initially  did  General  Groves  approve  tliat  420-pound 
shipment  quickly,  or  did  he  make  aii}^  efforts  to  stop  it? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  can't  answer  that,  sir,  because  I  don't  know  the 
period  of  time  before  the  decision  was  made.  There  were  so  many 
other  things  that  we  were  doing  that  this  was  really  not  of  great 
importance. 

Mr.  Case.  But  it  was  your  understanding  that  the  decision  to  let 
it  go  was  made  on  the  basis  that  things  had  gone  so  far  that  to  stop 
it  would  direct  attention  to  its  importance  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  And  then  it  was  that  you  took  steps  to  prevent  anything 
like  that  happening  again  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Case.  And  as  far  as  you  were  concerned,  you  said  you  took  steps 
that  you  thought  would  result  in  future  requests  turning  up  in  your 
office  or  Colonel  Johnson's  office  ? 

Mr.  Burma N.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  anybody  turn  up  in  your  office  who  was  making 
requests,  subsequently  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  can't  quite  recall  any  particular  cases  that  were 
turned  up  by  name.  We  did  have  requests  for  the  export  of  uranium 
metal  to  a  number  of  countries. 

Mr.  Case.  To  a  number  of  countries  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes.  I  think  Great  Britain  wanted  a  small  amount 
for  laboratory  work  which  was  outside  of  their  own  atomic  energy 
efforts;  that  is,  they  were  private  companies  wanting  uranium  metals 
for  what  they  said  was  chemical  analysis.  Those  may  have  been 
requests  that  they  had  received  from  elsewhere.  They  may  have 
been  feelers  from  elsewhere. 

Mr.  Case.  What  happened  to  those  requests  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Any  information  of  that  sort  we  did  receive  was 
passed  along  to  the  Washington  office,  and  if  they  thought  it  was  worth 
while  I  am  sure  they  turned  it  over  to  Intelligence. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  an}-  shipments  were  made 
to  Great  Britain  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  believe  there  was  a  very  small  shipment  in  1944  or 
1945  out  of  this  McKay  quantity. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC   MATERIAL  973 

Mr.  Case.  That  was  this  four  and  a  fraction  pounds? 

Mr.  BuKMAN.  Yes ;  of  which  2.2  pounds  went  to  Russui. 

Mr.  Nixon.  From  press  accounts  I  understand  that  this  quantity 
of  uranium  metal  sent  to  Russia  was  defective,  and  that  it  was  sent 
for  that  reason? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Did  you  deliberately  send  it  to  Great  Britain  for  the 

same  reason  ?  t  i   ,     i  •   i 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  It  was  for  commercial  purposes.  We  didn  t  think 
it  was  much  good  and  didn't  care  where  McKay  sold  it.  It  repre- 
sented a  poor  stock  of  material,  and  if  that  was  available  without  too 
much  trouble  it  avoided  attention  being  directed  to  the  material. 

Mr.  Case.  Were  there  any  other  shipments  to  Great  Britain  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Case.  You  spoke  of  requests  from  other  countries.  What  other 
countries? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  don't  recall.     They  were  all  for  trivial  quantities. 

Mv.  Case.  Did  any  other  requests  come  to  your  attention  from  the 
Soviet  Purchasing  Commission? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  don't  recall  any.  There  were  certainly  none  for 
uranium  metal  after  the  kilogram  shipment. 

Mr.  Case.  Was  this  request  for  uranium  metal  renewed  at  any  later 
date? 

Mr.  Burman.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  Case.  Not  to  your  knowledge  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  There  may  have  been  but  not  that  you  know  of? 

Mr.  Burman.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Case.  In  your  steps  to  prevent  any  further  shipments  outside 
the  United  States  following  your  knowledge  of  this  42U-pound  order, 
did  you  make  any  efforts  to  control  shipments  through  Lend-Lease? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  feel  pretty  certain  that  Colonel  Johnson's  office 
had  a  contact  in  Lend-Lease  who  would  bring  to  his  attention  anything 
on  uranium  that  would  come  through  that  office. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  contact  the  BEW  to  put  them  on  guard  in  any 
way? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  am  sure  Colonel  Johnson's  office  did  the  same  there. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  know  whether  Lend-Lease  supported  the  8%- 
ton  request? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  don't  know  whether  they  supported  it,  but  they 
circulated  the  request  for  it.     The  degree  of  their  action  I  can't  say. 

Mr.  Case.  Isn't  is  strange  Lend-Lease  would  circulate  this  request 
if  they  had  been  put  on  guard  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  They  might  just  as  well  have  circulated  the  request 
and  taken  whatever  action  with  Colonel  Johnson's  office  they  had 
agreed  to  take.  Refusing  to  circulate  it  would  have  aroused  the  sus- 
picion of  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Lend-Lease  sought  to  secure 
the  approval  of  the  Chemical  Warfare  Service? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  believe  Chemical  Warfare  Service  was  handling 
the  requisition  as  a  service  for  Lend-Lease.  I  don't  believe  they  had 
any  interest  other  than  that. 


y74  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Case.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  this  shipment  of  1,000 
pounds  subsequently,  which  you  didn't  know  about  until  June  1948, 
did  have  the  approval  of  the  Manhattan  District  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes.     General  Groves  approved  that. 

Mr.  Case.  And  you  testified  that  he  approved  it  because  he  thought 
the  sources  of  supply  had  been  shut  off  and  that  the  order  could  not 
be  filled? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  my  understanding. 

Mr.  Case.  But  you  were  not  personally  connected  with  that 
shipment  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  was  not  in  on  the  decision. 

Mr.  Case.  You  were,  however,  in  touch  with  the  sources  of  supply  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  yourself  think  you  had  all  sources  of  supply 
shut  off? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes,  we  did.  With  regard  to  Canadian  Radium  & 
Uranium  Corp.,  I  was  not  the  direct  contact  there.  Dr.  Merrittt  was 
in  touch  with  Mr.  Pregel  of  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  further  questions  ? 

Mr.  Case.  Are  you  personally  familiar  with  approval  for  that 
second  shipment  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  What  makes  you  think  General  Groves  approved  it  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  General  Groves  has  testified  to  that  effect  and  we 
have  reviewed  the  correspondence  in  our  old  Manhattan  District  files 
and  found  some  that  indicated  it. 

Mr.  Case.  But  all  that  you  have  said  with  regard  to  the  approval 
of  this  second  shipment  is  second-hand  information  so  far  as  you  are 
concerned  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Kearney  ? 

Mr.  Kearney.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Moulder.  I  would  like  to  ask  a  question. 

Mr.  Wood.  IVIr.  IMoulder. 

Mr.  MoTTLDER.  Was  there  any  secret  formula  by  which  uranium 
metal  was  manufactured,  or  was  it  generally  known  throughout  the 
world  how  to  make  it  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  There  were  a  number  of  processes  that  were  known 
but  Manhattan  District,  I  don't  believe,  has  ever  disclosed  the  method 
used  by  the  district  and  now  by  the  Commission. 
•  Mr.  Moulder.  It  was  then  a  secret  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  The  process  used  by  the  district  was  not  disclosed. 
We  considered  that  secret  information. 

IVIr.  Moulder.  Was  it  known  in  other  countries  how  to  make  uranium 
metal,  not  by  that  process  but  by  other  processes  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  It  had  many  other  uses  other  than  the  development 
of  atomic  energy  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Uranium  metal  had  very  few  uses.  It  was  consid- 
ered as  a  means  for  alloying  steel,  but  there  were  much  more  effective 
metals  for  alloying  steel  than  uranium,  which  has  approximately  the 
same  qualities  as  nickel  when  used  for  that  purpose. 

Mr.  Moulder.  You  mentioned  private  companies  in  England  using 
it  for  commercial  purposes  ? 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  975 

Mr.  Btjrman.  Small  quantities  were  used  for  experimental  purposes. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Didn't  you  mention  that  approximately  150  tons  a 
year  were  consumed  in  this  country  for  coimnercial  purposes? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  was  not  in  the  form  of  uranium  metal. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  referred  to  General  Groves  as  having  agreed 
to  the  shipment  of  1,000  pounds,  and  you  referred  to  his  having  testi- 
fied to  that  effect.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  what  General  Groves  testified 
was  that  he  agreed  eventually  that  the  license  be  issued  in  order  to 
ascertain  whether  or  not  the  Kussians  could  locate  a  supply  in  the 
United  States.     Do  you  recall  that? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes, 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  records  further  show  that  after  the  issuance  of 
the  license  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  advised  Lend-Lease 
that  due  to  the  great  delay  in  the  issuance  of  the  license  their  sup- 
plier had  withdrawn  the  offer.     Do  you  recall  that  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  believe  that  was  Shattuck  Chemical  Co.,  with  whom 
they  had  placed  the  order  at  first. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  And  you  have  refreshed  my  recollection  on  that  a  bit. 
They  did  withdraw  it  on  the  ground  their  offer  had  not  been  picked  up. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  the  evidence  further  shows  that  when  that 
report  was  made  to  General  Wesson,  of  Lend-Lease,  he  significantly 
smiled  when  it  was  stated  that  the  supplier  could  not  furnish  the 
material.     Do  you  recall  that  testimony? 

]Mr,  BuRMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  General  Groves  further  testified  that  he  knew 
nothing  about  the  shipment  from  Eldorado  mines  until  he  appeared 
before  this  committee  in  1948,  just  as  you  have  testified.  Wliat  basis 
do  you  have  for  stating  that  General  Groves  agreed  to  the  shipment  by 
Eldorado  mines? 

Mr.  BuRiMAN.  If  I  implied  that,  it  was  not  intended.  He  author- 
ized the  export  license,  but  I  don't  know  that  anyone  ever  authorized 
the  actual  shipment  of  the  material  through  Canadian  Radium  & 
Uranium. 

Mr.  Nixon.  If  he  had  authorized  the  shipment,  the  Atomic  Energy 
Commission  would  not  have  had  to  wait  until  June  1948  to  learn  of  it  2 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  That  is  true. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  agreement  which  you  referred  to  as  having 
been  executed  between  Manhattan  Engineering  District  and  the  Cana- 
dian Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  provided,  as  I  understood  you  to  say, 
that  no  shipments  would  be  made  by  that  corporation  within  a  year, 
or  just  w^iat  was  that  agreement? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  According  to  the  terms  of  the  agreement,  Manhattan 
District  would  have  first  option  to  purchase  any  material  other  than 
that  covered  in  the  contract  in  the  event  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium 
had  any. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  stand  in  recess  until  2  o'clock. 

(Thereupon,  at  12 :  20  p.  m.,  a  recess  was  taken  until  2  p.  m.  of  the 
same  day.)  

afternoon  session 

(The  hearing  was  resumed  at  2 :45  p.  m.) 
Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  be  in  order. 


976  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

For  the  time  being  the  record  will  disclose  that  the  hearing  is  pro- 
ceeding before  a  subcommittee  composed  of  Mr.  Walter,  Mr.  Harrison^ 
Mr.  Velde,  and  the  chairman. 

Mr.  Tavenxer.  Mr.  Burman,  will  you  resume  the  stand,  please? 

TESTIMONY  OF  LAWRENCE  C.  BUEMAN— Resumed 

Mr.  Burman,  when  recess  was  taken  I  was  asking  you  a  question 
relating  to  this  alleged  contract  between  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  and  Canadian  Kadium  &  Uranium  Corp. 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  not  going  to  ask  you  to  attempt  to  rely  on  your 
memory  regarding  the  exact  terms  of  that  agreement  because  we  are 
expecting  to  have  it  produced. 

Mr.  BurmajST.  I  understand  it  will  be  ready  about  3 :  30  this  after- 
noon. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  3  :  30  this  afternoon  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Assuming  that  this  agreement  does  provide,  as  you 
indicated  it  may,  that  an  option  was  given  to  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  to  purchase  uranium  which  may  be  available  for  other  pur- 
chasers, were  you  notified  at  any  time  that  other  purchasers  had  re- 
quested uranium  from  this  company  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes ;  I  believe  the  records  do  show  that  we  were  asked 
to  comment  on  an  order  for  8  or  8I/2  tons  of  uranium  nitrate  and  an 
equal  quantity  of  uranium  chloride.  We  were  asked  to  make  sugges- 
tions to  Canadian  Radium  in  response  to  an  inquiry  they  received  for 
export  to  the  U.  S.  S.  R. 

Mr.  Ta^tenner.  Did  that  inquiry  come  to  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  by  letter  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  don't  recall  whether  it  came  by  letter  or  verbally. 
Our  records  show  that  we  replied  by  letter. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  have  a  copy  of  that  letter  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  I  don't  have  a  copy  of  it,  but  I  have  a  telephone  tran- 
scription of  it  which  we  received  during  the  noon  hour  today.  Mr» 
Merritt  has  it,  if  I  could  get  it  from  him. 

Mr.  Wood.  You  mean  it  was  read  over  the  telephone? 

Mr.  Burman.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  receive  the  telephone  conmiunication  your- 
self, or  Mr.  Merritt  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Mr.  Merritt  received  it  and  read  it  off  and  I  copied  it 
at  the  same  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  think  since  we  are  on  this  subject  it  would  be  well 
for  you  to  get  it  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Burman.  Very  well.  [After  producing  paper :]  Do  you  want 
to  hear  it  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Burman.  The  letter  was  dated  February  19,  1943,  and  was 
addressed  to  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  at  630  Fifth  Avenue, 
New  York: 

We  understand  that  you  have  had  a  call  from  Captain  Fliegel  of  Chemical 
Warfare  Service,  292  Madison  Avenue,  New  York,  in  regard  to  a  request  for 
8  long  tons  of  uranium  nitrate  and  8  long  tons  of  uranium  chloride.  In. 
answer  to  this  inquiry  please  state  that  none  is  available  except  in  experimental 
quantities. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  977 

Under  no  circumstances  is  any  information  to  be  given  to  any  such  inquiry 
to  the  effect  tliat  this  ofiiee  is  interested.  It  is  suggested  that  your  Canadian 
office  be  advised  to  refuse  information  as  to  any  inquiries. 

Mr.  Wood.  By  whom  is  it  signed  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  By  Colonel  Crenshaw. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  Will  you  produce  the  office  copy  or  a  photostat  of 
the  office  copy  and  deliver  it  to  the  senior  investigator  of  this  com- 
mittee? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes ;  I  think  we  can  do  that. 

Mr.  Ta\-enner.  Did  you  receive  any  other  report  or  inquiry  from 
Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  or  Eldorado  Mines  regarding 
uranium  which  you  were  entitled  to  receive  under  the  option  which 
you  stated  existed  in  the  contract? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  I  don't  know  of  any  other. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  have  shown  you  what  purports  to  be  an  excerpt 
from  a  report  made  of  uranium  sales  by  Eldorado  Mines  during  the 
year  1943. 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Taa^nner.  Have  you  made  a  search  of  the  files  maintained 
by  Manhattan  Engineering  District  to  determine  whether  or  not  such 
a  report  is  in  your  files? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes;  I  have  just  recently  made  a  search  for  that  par- 
ticular document,  and  we  haven't  been  able  to  find  it  in  the  Man- 
hattan District  files  or  the  War  Production  part  of  the  Manhattan 
District  files. 

Mr.  TA^^5XNER.  Is  there  a  possibility  that  a  record  of  that  report 
may  be  in  the  files  of  the  War  Production  Board  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes ;  there  may  be,  but  if  it  did  get  to  War  Produc- 
tion Board  in  Washington  a  copy  would  have  been  sent  to  us  in  New 
York  by  our  contact  in  War  Production  Board. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  believe  that  is  all  I  am  going  to  ask,  Mr.  Chair- 
man. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Harrison.  I  understand  that  after  you  had  written  that  letter 
to  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  without  further  report  to  you, 
this  corporation  did  sell  uranium  to  Russia? 

Mr.  BuR^tAN.  That  is  our  understanding;  yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Without  your  knowledge.  You  didn't  have  any 
knowledge  of  it  until  1948?' 

Mr.  Burman.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Harrison.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Velde? 

Mr.  Velde.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  I  think,  Mr.  Counsel,  in  the  light  of  the  persistence  of 
these  bells  [bells  indicating  either  quorum  calls  or  calls  for  roll-call 
vote  on  floor  of  House]  this  afternoon,  we  had  better  give  up  the  icl^ea 
of  continuing  further  with  this  hearing,  and  meet  a  little  earlier  in 
the  morning.  Let's  see  if  we  can't  get  here  at  10  o'clock  tomorrow 
morning,  until  which  time  the  committee  stands  adjourned. 

(Thereupon,  at  2:  55  p.  m.  on  Monday,  January  23,  1950,  an  ad- 
journment was  taken  until  Tuesday,  January  24,  1950,  at  10  a.  m.) 


99384 — 50- 


HEAEINCtS  EEGAEDrnG  SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATEEIAL 
TO  THE  SOVIET  UNION  DUEING  WOELD  WAE  II 


TUESDAY,  JANUARY  24,   1950 

United  States  House  of  Representatives, 

Committee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

Washington^  D.  C. 

PUBLIC  HEARINGS 

MORNING   SESSION 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  adjournment,  at  10 :30  a.  m.,  in  room 
226,  Old  House  Office  Building,  Hon.  John  S.  Wood  (chairman)  pre- 
siding. 

Committee  members  present :  Representatives  John  S.  Wood,  Rich- 
ard M.  Nixon,  Francis  Case,  Harold  H.  Velde,  and  Bernard  W. 
Kearney. 

Staff  members  present:  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  counsel;  Louis  J. 
Russell,  senior  investigator ;  Donald  T.  Appell  and  Courtney  Owens, 
investigators;  John  W.  Carrington,  clerk;  Benjamin  Mandel,  di- 
rector of  research ;  and  A.  S.  Poore,  editor. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  be  in  order. 

Let  the  record  show  that  there  are  present  Mr.  Nixon,  Mr.  Case, 
Mr.  Velde,  Mr.  Kearney,  and  Mr.  Wood,  a  quorum. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  call  as  the  first  wit- 
ness Dr.  Phillip  L.  Merritt. 

Mr.  Wood.  Dr.  Merritt,  will  you  raise  your  right  hand  and  be  sworn. 
Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  evidence  you  give  the  committee  shall  be 
the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Dr.  Merriti.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DE.  PHILLIP  L.  MERRITT 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Dr.  Merritt,  will  you  please  state  your  full  name? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Phillip  L.  Merritt. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  was  born  in  Duluth,  Minn.,  February  8,  1906. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  your  present  occupation  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  am  assistant  manager  of  the  Raw  Materials  Opera- 
tions Office  of  the  Atomic  Energy  Commission. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  please  furnish  the  committee  with  a 
resume  of  your  previous  employment? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  graduated  from  the  University  of  Minnesota  in 
1928.  I  then  spent  about  a  year  and  a  half  in  Africa  as  a  geologist. 
I  returned  to  the  United  States  in  1929,  went  to  Columbia  University, 

970 


980  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

where  I  studied  geology,  and  obtained  a  doctor's  degree  in  goology 
in  1933. 

I  tlien  went  to  Colombia,  South  America,  for  2  years  as  a  geologist 
for  the  Colombian  Government.  I  returned  to  the  United  States  in 
1936  and  took  up  employment  with  the  American  Cyanamid  Co. 

Mr.  Wood.  Will  you  speak  a  little  louder  ?     I  didn't  hear  the  last. 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  was  with  the  American  Cyanamid  Co.  from  1936 
until  1942,  when  I  was  commissioned  as  a  captain  in  the  Army  and 
was  assigned  to  the  Manhattan  project.  I  stayed  with  the  Manhattan 
project  until  January  1947,  when  the  Atomic  Energy  Commission  took 
over  the  project,  and  I  am  now  with  the  Commission. 

Mr.  Velde.  When  were  you  first  assigned  to  the  Manhattan  project? 

Dr.  Merritt.  October  26,  1942. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  While  you  were  employed  by  the  Manhattan  En- 
gineering District,  what  were  your  specific  duties? 

Dr.  ]\1erritt.  I  was  involved  in  the  procurement  of  raw  materials 
for  the  Manhattan  District,  principally  uranium. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  inquiries  from  various  Government  agencies 
regarding  uranium  cleared  through  your  office,  or  j^our  hands? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  necessarily.  Most  of  them  were  cleared  through 
the  Washington  office,  through  Colonel  Johnson's  off.ce,  although  we 
did  obtain  knowledge  of  them  from  time  to  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  questions  were  presented  by  other  Govern- 
ment agencies  relating  to  the  licensing,  for  instance,  of  uranium  for 
export,  were  you  requii-ed  to  give  consideration  and  make  recommenda- 
tions with  regard  to  such  matters? 

Dr.  jSIerritt.  I  think  that  Mr.  Burman  had  more  close  contact  with 
the  actual  licensing.  I  was  in  the  same  office  and  oftentimes  was 
involved  in  the  matter,  although  that  was  not  a  principal  duty  of  mine. 

Mv.  Tavenner.  Were  j^ou  well  acquainted  with  what  transpired  with 
regard  to  the  negotiations  pertaining  to  the  licensing  of  uranium  for 
export  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Fairly  well  acquainted;  yes. 

Mr.  Taat.nner.  Did  you  hear  the  testimony  yesterday  of  Mr.  Law- 
rence C.  Burman  outlining  the  required  procedure  for  the  purchase 
of  uranium  compounds  during  the  war  period  for  export? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes;  I  did. 

Mr.  TAAa:NNER.  Can  you  give  us  any  additional  light  on  the  general 
procedural  requirements  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  believe  so.  I  believe  Mr.  Burman  covered  the 
subject  very  thoroughly. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  the  Chemical  Warfare  Service  of  the  United 
States  Army  authorized  to  make  uranium  compounds  available  to  the 
Russian  Purchasing  Commission? 

Dr.  Merritt.  There  was  one  instance  where  they  were  apparently 
assigned  the  job  of  procurement,  probably  by  Lencl-Lease.  I  believe 
the  procurement  involved  8  tons  of  uranium  oxide  and  8  tons  of  nitrate. 
I  think  that  was  it;  I  am  not  quite  certain.  They  did  contact  our 
office  to  see  if  it  was  available,  and  they  were  told  that  we  were  not 
directly  involved  in  the  subject  of  uranium ;  we  had  been  dabbling  in 
it,  in  the  alloy  materials,  but  knew  nothing  of  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  was  done  for  security  reasons  ? 

Dr.  Merritt,  For  security  reasons,  yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  Just  who  was  it  took  that  matter  up  with  you  ? 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  981 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  recall  two  ofRcers  in  New  York.  I  believe  Captain 
Fliegel  was  one,  and  I  believe  there  was  a  Captain  Clark.  I  believe 
1  spoke  to  one  of  them  on  the  phone  once.  I  believe  Colonel  Crenshaw 
carried  on  most  of  the  negotiations  with  them.  The  statement  I  made 
about  dabbling  in  uranium  was  one  I  believe  Colonel  Crenshaw  made 
to  one  of  the  ofRcers. 

Mr.  Wood.  What  agency  did  they  represent? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Chemical  Warfare  Service. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Of  the  United  States  Army? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Of  the  United  States  Army,  yes. 

Mr.  Taa^nner.  Just  what  was  the  procedure,  from  the  standpoint  of 
the  Chemical  Warfare  Service,  as  far  as  you  know,  in  the  handling  of 
Russian  requests  for  uranium? 

Dr.  IMerkitt.  Apparently  they  were  assigned  this  job,  I  suppose,  by 
Dend-Lease,  and  various  officers  attempted  to  secure  the  material  for 
Lend-Lease.  We  had  reports,  I  believe,  from  the  Cleveland  office. 
They  had  contacted  one  of  our  officers  there  and  attempted  to  buy  the 
material.  He  contacted  us  directly.  And  I  believe  there  were  reports 
they  contacted  someone  in  Pittsburgh.  They  were  just  trying  to  buy 
it  on  behalf  of  Lend-Lease.  I  don't  believe  they  realized  the  signifi- 
cance of  the  material. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  the  Treasury  Department  of  the  United  States 
Government  authorized  to  make  uranium  or  uranium  compounds 
available  to  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  that  I  know  of.  We  had  a  report  yesterday  of 
45  pounds  being  sold  to  Treasury  by  Eastman  Kodak  as  a  commercial 
transaction.  We  have  the  record  on  that  in  the  War  Production  Board 
files  in  New  York.    It  was  reported  only  as  a  commercial  transaction. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  that  reported  as  a  transaction  after  the  trans- 
:action  had  been  consummated? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  It  was  reported  in  a  report  of  July  28  by  East- 
man Kodak.  I  believe  the  transaction  took  place  in  June  1944.  They 
were  required  to  make  a  quarterly  report. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  you  had  a  report  yesterday  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  conhrmed  it  yesterday,  or,  rather,  this  morning. 
We  understood  yesterday  from  the  testimony  that  there  were  45 
pounds  shipped. 

Mr,  Nixon.  You  didn't  know  it  before  that  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  did  not  know  it  was  shipped  to  the  Russians,  no. 

Mr.  Nixon.  In  other  words,  you  learned  it  for  the  first  time  in  these 
hearings  yesterday  ? 

Dr.  INIerritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  45  pounds  had  been  shipped  in  this  manner  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tav-enner.  I  believe  after  I  asked  the  question  yesterday  you 
liad  the  records  of  your  office  searched  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  you  found  in  the  course  of  that  search  that 
there  had  been  a  domestic  sale  to  the  Treasury  Department? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  the  case  of  a  domestic  sale  of  that  type,  was  it 
the  procedure  that  you  be  consulted  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  It  was  not  required  under  the  regulations  for  a  sale  of 
that  type  to  be  asked  about  in  advance. 


982  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You,  of  course,  as  I  understand,  have  no  knowledge 
of  what  was  later  done  with  that  shipment  to  the  Treasury  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  have  no  knowledge  whatever. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  the  records  of  your  office  reflect  what  happened  to  it  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  They  reflect  that  it  was  shipped  by  Eastman  Kodak 
to  Treasury  Procurement,  and  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  That  is  as  far  as  your  records  go  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  as  far  as  our  records  go. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Dr.  Merritt,  you,  of  course,  know  that  in  March 
1943  the  Soviet  Government  Purchasing  Commission  in  the  United 
States  succeeded  in  purchasing  200  pounds  of  uranium  oxide  and  220 
pounds  of  uranium  nitrate,  which  material  was  shipped  from  Great 
Falls,  Mont.,  to  Moscow  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  did  Manhattan  Engineering  District  first  ac- 
quire knowledge  of  this  proposed  sale  and  shipment  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Through  the  records  of  the  War  Production  Board. 
As  I  recall,  the  War  Production  Board  was  notified  of  this,  and  they 
immediately  notified  us  of  the  proposed  shipment. 

Mr.  Wood.  Before  it  was  made  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  There  has  been  considerable  testimony  relating  to 
the  procedure  followed  in  that  original  shipment,  and  I  will  not  ques- 
tion you  further  relating  to  those  details,  because  they  have  been 
covered  pretty  fully.  But  I  would  like  to  ask  you  this :  Wliat  officials 
of  the  War  Production  Board,  the  Bureau  of  Economic  Warfare,  or 
Lend-Lease  conferred  with  you  or  members  of  the  staff  of  the  Manhat- 
tan Engineering  District  with  regard  to  the  clearance  of  that  ship- 
ment ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Mr.  Lund  and  Mr.  Parks  of  the  War  Production 
Board,  I  believe,  were  aware  of  this;  I  believe  we  conferred  with 
tliem.  I  believe,  in  lend-lease,  Mr.  Moore  and  Mr.  Hoopes.  And  no- 
one,  as  far  as  I  know,  in  the  Bureau  of  Economic  Warfare. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  attitude  of  those  who  conferred  with 
you  or  your  staff  regarding  the  propriety  of  making  this  shipment, 
which  is  the  first  shipment — the  material  obtained  from  the  Shattuck 
Co.? 

Dr.  IVIerritt.  I  believe,  so  far  as  the  Manhattan  District  staff  was 
concerned,  they  were  opposed  to  it,  but  the  arrangements  seemed  to 
have  progressed  so  far  that  it  would  have  been  inadvisable  to  stop  it 
at  that  point.  We  would  have  been  giving  away  more  than  we  would 
have  been  saving  to  stop  it  at  that  time,  so  it  was  decided  by  General 
Groves,  I  believe,  to  let  the  shipment  go. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  My  question  was  more  about  the  attitude  of  those 
dealing  with  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District,  rather  than  of  the 
staff  itself. 

Dr.  INIerritt.  There  was  a  great  deal  of  persistence  in  trying  to  get 
a  decision  on  it,  I  know  that — many,  many  phone  calls.  Whether  they 
actually  favored  the  shipment  or  not  I  couldn't  say,  but  there  were  a 
lot  of  phone  calls  in  connection  with  it — a  persistence  of  phone  calls  to 
get  a  decision. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  say  a  persistence  in  getting  a  decision  ? 

Dr.  ]\Ierritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  there  an  effort  made  to  influence  that  decision? 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  983 

Dr.  Merritt.  That,  I  couldn't  say.  I  had  very  little  contact  with 
the  officials  involved.  Most  of  that  contact  was  carried  on  by  Colonel 
Crenshaw  or  Colonel  Johnson. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  at  that  time,  which 
was  in  March  1943,  tlie  War  Production  Board  and  Lend-Lease  Ad- 
ministration knew  that  a  uranium  project  was  being  conducted  by  the 
Manhattan  Engineering  District? 

Dr.  Mekritt.  War  Production  Board,  of  course,  was  aware  of  it ;  at 
least,  Mr.  Lund  and  Mr.  Parks  were  aware  of  it.  Whether  or  not  the 
Lend-Lease  people  were  aware  of  it,  I  can't  say.  I  believe  they  were 
aware  of  it  at  a  later  date,  but  whether  they  were  aware  of  it  then,  I 
don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  measures  were  taken  by  Manhattan  Engineer- 
ing District  to  control  the  distribution  of  uranium  products,  or  their 
sale,  after  the  approval  of  this  first  shipment,  which  was  the  Shattuck 
shipment  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  After  the  initial  War  Production  Board  regulations 
went  into  effect  in  January,  we  then  began  a  program  of  purchasing 
all  available  uranium  from  chemical  supply  houses,  ceramics  pro- 
ducers, and  other  people  who  had  stocks  for  legitimate  reasons.  We 
carried  the  program  out  largelj^  through  contractors,  in  order  to  keep 
the  Manhattan  District  name  out  of  the  transactions. 

We  made  a  contract  with  Vitro  Manufacturing  Co.,  of  Pittsburgh, 
Pa.,  which  at  that  time  was  a  small  producer  of  uranium  and  a  con- 
sumer of  uranium,  to  purchase  odd  lots  of  the  material  from  various 
people  for  resale  to  us.  We  made  a  contract  with  Harshaw  Chemical 
Co.  to  buy  what  stocks  they  had.  They  were  involved  in  the  project 
and  we  made  a  direct  contract  with  them.  We  made  a  contract  with 
the  African  Metals  Corp.  to  buy  what  stocks  they  had.  We  never  made 
a  contract  with  Shattuck,  but  w^e  had  an  agreement  with  them  that 
they  would  not  sell  to  foreign  people  or  other  people  without  our 
knowledge. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  was  that  agreement  reached  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  After  the  shipment. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  After  they  had  made  their  first  shipment  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  They  were  a  very  small  supplier,  really.  Then 
we  made  a  contract  with  Boris  Pregel  as  agent  for  the  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  will  ask  you  some  questions  about  that  later.  Who 
else  did  you  confer  with? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  recall  any  other  companies.  Those  are  the 
principal  companies,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Chematar,  Inc.,  is  shown  by  the  record  to  have  been 
the  supplier  of  some  of  this  material,  acting,  probably,  as  agent — 
unquestionably  acting  as  agent — for  others.  Did  you  endeavor  to 
make  any  arrangement  with  them  by  which  they  would  not  engage 
in  sales  to  foreign  countries? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No  ;  we  did  not. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  spoke  of  a  contract  with  Boris  Pregel.  Aside 
from  the  contract,  did  you  confer  with  him  or  any  other  representative 
of  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  to  ask  their  cooperation  in 
not  selling  to  any  other  country  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  sent  them  a  letter  which  was  reported  here  yester- 
day.   I  do  not  recall  any  specific  conference  with  them.    Many  other 


984  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

people  talked  to  them  besides  me.  I  presume  we  assumed,  with  the 
contract,  that  should  be  sufficient  to  protect  ourselves. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  letter  to  which  you  referred  I  believe  bore  a 
■date  in  February  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  February  19. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  So  that  was  done  prior  to  the  occasion  of  the  sale 
by  the  Shattuck  Co.  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  With  regard  to  the  contract  that  you  mentioned,  we 
endeavored  yesterday  to  obtain  a  copy  of  that  contract.  We  under- 
stand that  it  has  the  rating  of  "secret,"  and  we  were  unable  to  get  the 
contract,  but  our  agent  was  permitted  to  copy  certain  things  from 
the  contract.  He  has  copied  the  first  page  of  the  contract,  the  caption 
of  the  contract,  and  an  article  dealing  with  the  phase  of  the  matter  that 
we  are  concerned  with.  I  hand  you  this  extract  from  the  contract  and 
ask  you  to  look  it  over  and  state  whether  or  not  you  can  identify  it  as 
an  excerpt  from  the  contract.  I  will  have  to  prove  the  accuracy  of 
it  later. 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  I  can  identify  it  as  an  excerpt  from  the  con- 
tract. 

Mr.  TA^^ENNER.  Did  you  take  part  in  the  preparation  of  the  con- 
tract, and  were  you  familiar  at  the  time  with  the  character  of  it? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes;  I  did. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  Will  you  read  it,  please? 

Dr.  Merritt  (reading)  : 

This  Contract  entered  into  this  27tli  day  of  March  1943,  by  the  United  States 
OF  America  (hereinafter  called  the  "Government"),  represented  by  the  Contract- 
ing Officer  executing  this  contract,  and  Boris  Pregel,  Agent,  of  the  City  of  New 
York,  in  the  State  of  New  York  (hereinafter  called  the  Contractor),  witnesseth 
that  the  parties  hereto  do  mutually  agree  as  follows : 

Article  I — Scope  of  this  Contract. — The  Contractor  shall  furnish  and  deliver 
immediately  f.  o.  b.  New  York,  New  York,  at  such  point  or  points  as  designated 
by  the  Contracting  Officer,  in  suitable  containers  furnished  by  the  Contractor, 
approximate  quantities  of  materials  at  their  respective  prices,  as  follows : 

Per  unit 

1.  (a)  2,875  Units  of  P56 $3,895 

(b)  2,300  Units  of  M21 3. 10 

(c)  2,000  Units  of  L33 4.10 

2.  In  addition  to  the  materials  contracted  for  in  section  (1)  above  mentioned, 
the  Contractor  gives  to  the  Government  for  a  period  of  one  (1)  year,  from  the 
date  hereof,  the  initial  right  to  purchase  from  time  to  time  any  or  all  of  the 
P56,  M21,  and  L33  received  by  the  Contractor. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  is  noted  on  the  face  of  the  contract  that  there  is 
an  undisclosed  principal,  and  it  is  noted  that  certain  terms  were  used 
which  I  assume  were  code  terms  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  explain  the  reason  for  that? 

Dr.  Merritt.  It  was  our  practice  to  code  all  contracts  so  that  people 
who  handled  the  contract  for  payment  purposes,  and  anyone  else  who 
might  come  in  contact  with  the  contract,  would  not  be  aware  that  the 
materials  were  actually  uranium  that  we  were  dealing  in.  It  was  a 
general  practice  to  code  all  contracts.  The  code  was  then  explained 
in  a  separate  letter  which  was  made  a  part  of  the  contract. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  will  ask  you  to  state  whether  or  not  one  of  the 
code  numbers  indicated  covered  uranium  oxide,  black  uranium  oxide, 
and  uranium  nitrate? 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  985 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes;  P56  was  explained  in  the  secret  letter  as  being 
black  uranium  oxide,  L33  was  explained  as  being  uranium  nitrate, 
and  M21  was  sodium  uranate. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  Will  you  explain  why  there  is  an  undisclosed  prin- 
cipal involved  in  this  contract  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  The  principal  involved  in  the  contract  was  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Co.,  a  company  which  had  been  involved  in  and 
was  identified  witli  the  sale  of  uranium.  For  security  reasons  the 
company  was  not  disclosed  in  the  contract  because  it  possibly  would 
have  disclosed  what  the  contents  of  the  contract  were.  The  secret 
letter  which  accompanied  the  contract  was  addressed  to  Boris 
Pregel,  agent,  and  to  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Co.  The  secret 
letter  disclosed  what  a  unit  meant;  it  disclosed  what  the  symbols 
meant ;  also  it  disclosed  that  the  principal  in  the  contract  was  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Co.,  and  that  Boris  Pregel  personally  was  not 
held  liable. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  the  secret  letter  also  contain  a  provision  that 
the  corporation  was  liable  for  all  acts  of  its  agents  under  the  terms 
of  this  contract  ? 

Dr.  INIerritt.  As  I  recall,  it  did ;  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Has  a  search  been  made  for  a  copy  of  that  secret 
letter  since  this  matter  first  arose  yesterday  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  have  the  letter  in  New  York. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  letter  is  in  New  York  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  produce  a  photostatic  copy  of  it  and 
make  it  available  to  the  senior  investigator  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  date  of  that  contract  is  March  what  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  March  27,  1943. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  at  this  time  I  would  like  to  inter- 
rupt the  testimony  of  this  witness  and  call  to  the  stand  Mr.  C.  E. 
McKillips,  an  investigator  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Wood.  Very  well. 

(Witness  Merritt  temporarily  excused.) 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  give  the  com- 
mittee shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  McKillips.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CHARLES  EDWARD  McKILLIPS 

Mr.  Tavenner.  State  your  full  name? 

Mr.  McKillips.  Charles  Edward  McKillips. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  are  an  investigator  of  the  Committee  on  Un- 
American  Activities  ? 

Mr.  McKillips.  I  am. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  yesterday  copy  from  the  contract  of  March 
27,  1943,  the  excerpt  which  I  now  hand  you  ? 

Mr.  McKillips.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Is  that  a  true  and  correct  copy  of  what  purports  to 
be  an  excerpt  ? 

Mr.  McKillips.  That  is  a  true  and  correct  copy. 


986  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wlio  signed  the  agi^eement  ?  Who  were  the  parties 
to  the  sijznatiire  ? 

Mr.  McKiLLiPS.  A  J.  C.  Marsliall,  colonel,  Corps  of  Engineers, 
contracting  officer.  One  of  the  witnesses  was  Alexander  Pregel,  and 
another  witness  was  H.  B.  Kearney. 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  I  desire  to  offer  this  excerpt  in  evidence,  and  request 
that  it  be  marked  "McKillips  Exhibit  1." 

]\Ir.  Wood.  Without  objection,  it  will  be  admitted. 

Mr.  Kearney.  ISIr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Kearney. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  legal  procedure  here.  I  don't 
know  how  a  piece  of  paper  like  this  could  be  accepted  in  evidence  in  a 
court  of  law. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  contents  of  the  paper,  as  I  understand,  are  being 
tendered  as  being  a  correct  transcript  of  an  original  document  in  the 
possession  of  the  agency  representee!  by  the  witness  Merritt,  and  with 
the  identification  that  has  been  made  of  it,  I  think  it  is  proper  for 
admission,  although  if  a  question  is  raised  about  it,  we  can  go  in  execu- 
tive session.  Do  you  make  an  objection,  or  did  you  make  that  as  an 
observation  ? 

Mr.  Kearney.  T  make  it  as  an  observation,  and  for  the  present  I 
will  withhold  an  objection. 

Mr.  Wood.  Very  well.     It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  excerpt  nhoxe  referred  to,  marked  "McKillips  Exhibit  1,"  is 
hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)^ 

Mr.  Ta\-enner.  That  is  all,  Mr.  McKillips. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DR.  PHILLIP  L.  MERRITT— Eesumed 

Mr.  Tavenner.  AVlien  was  the  first  shipment  made  to  Manhattan 
Engineering  District  under  this  contract? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Our  records  indicate  that  the  first  receipt  was  May 
20,  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  that  the  quantity  provided  for  in  the  original 
terms  of  the  contract? 

Dr.  Merritt.  There  may  have  been  a  slight  variation  of  50  pounds 
here  or  there  on  some  of  the  substances.  The  quantities  are  approxi- 
mate, as  you  notice,  and  I  think  there  was  a  slight  variation  in  the 
weights. 

Mr.  Ta\t.nner.  Evidence  has  been  introduced  before  the  commit- 
tee that  the  JNIanhattan  Engineering  District  acquired  quantities  of 
uranium  from  the  Canadian  corporation  prior  to  the  entering  into 
of  this  contract. 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  last  paragra]>h  of  the  excerpt  from  the  con- 
tract, McKillips  exhibit  1,  reads  as  follows : 

The  Contractor  gives  to  the  Government  for  a  jieriod  of  one  year,  from  the  date 
hereof,  the  initial  right  to  purchase  from  tim4  to  time,  any  or  all  of  the  P-56, 
M-21,  and  L-So,  received  by  the  Contractor. 

Was  Manhattan  Engineering  District  afforded  an  opportunity  to 
exercise  its  initial  right  under  this  contract  to  purchase  all  the  ura- 
nium received  by  the  contractor? 

°  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  987 

Dr.  Merritt.  Apparently  it  was  not,  although  there  were  delivered 
on  June  4,  1,900  pounds  of  sodium  uranate  under  the  option.  That 
additional  quantity  was  delivered  2  weeks  after  the  initial  delivery. 

Mr.  Tavp:nner.  It  is  noted  Eldorado  mines  is  not  a  party  to  this 
I  contract  ? 

Dr.  Merkitt.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  TA^^':NNER.  It  is  also  noted  that  the  contract  refers  to  the 
'material  which  the  contractor  receives? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Ta-vt^tstner.  Do  you  know  what  the  relationship  was  between 
the  contractor,  that  is,  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  and 
Eldorado  mines  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  At  that  time,  as  I  understand  it,  Canadian  Radium 
■  &  Uranium  Corp.  was  the  sole  sale  agent  for  Eldorado  mines.  That 
is  my  understanding. 

Mr.  TA^^:NNER.  Do  you  recall  whether  or  not  the  Manhattan  Engi- 
neering District  was  advised  at  any  time  that  this  material  was  avail- 
•able  if  it  desired  to  purchase  it? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  do  not  recall  being  so  advised,  and  I  found  nothing 
in  the  records  that  would  so  indicate. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  I  say  "this"  material,  I  am  referring  to  the 
material  which  was  actually  sold  to  the  Russian  purchasing  com- 
mission. 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  I  found  nothing  in  the  records  which  would 
indicate  so,  and  I  have  no  personal  recollection  of  its  having  been 
offered. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Did  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District,  to  your 
"knowledge,  waive  its  right  to  purchase  any  or  all  materials  which 
may  come  into  the  hands  of  the  contractor,  which,  of  course,  is  the 
Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Insofar  as  I  know  that  right  was  never  waived.  There 
is  nothing  to  indicate  so  in  the  records  that  I  can  find,  and  I  don't 
recall  anything. 

Mr.  Taat^nner.  You  have  learned  during  the  course  of  these  hear- 
ings that  the  uranium  which  was  sold  by  Eldorado  mines  to  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission  was  sold  through  the  Canadian  Radium  & 
Uranium  Corp.? 

Dr.  Merritt.  So  I  understand,  yes.  At  least,  it  was  carried  on 
their  books. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  it  the  practice  of  Eldorado  mines  to  make 
annual  reports  to  the  jSIanhattan  Engineering  District  or  the  War 
Production  Board  showing  the  sales  of  uranium  made  during  the 
q^receding  year? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  the  Eldorado  mines.  Eldorado  mines  is  a  foreign 
company  and  there  was  no  requirement  that  they  report  to  us  as 
Eldorado  mines. 

Mr.  Tamsnner.  Did  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  make 
such  report  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  that  we  have  a  record  of  some  earlier  trans- 
actions prior  to  1943.  We  received  them  for  information  purposes, 
"to  find  out  who  were  utilizing  uranium.  I  believe  at  a  later  date  some 
records  of  sales  were  given.    I  am  not  thoroughly  familiar  with  that. 

Mr.  Ta^^nner.  You  are  not  positive  whether  such  a  record  was 
filed  for  the  year  1943  ? 


988  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  understand  it  was  not  filed  for  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Or,  at  least,  the  report  has  not  been  located  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  At  least  it  has  not  been  located,  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  is  anticipated  that  evidence  will  be  introduced 
showing  that  the  purchase  price  of  the  products  purchased  by  the 
Russian  Purchasing  Commission  from  Eldorado  mines  was  as  fol- 
lows: Uranium  nitrate,  $2.36  a  pound;  black  uranium  oxide,  $2.55 
a  pound. 

How  do  those  prices  compare  with  the  contract  price  provided  for 
similar  products  in  McKillips  exhibit  1? 

Dr.  IMerritt.  They  are  slightly  in  excess,  although  not  a  great  deal 
higher.  These  prices  are  about  the  commercial  prices  at  that  time. 
Our  prices  were  less  than  the  commercial  prices.  These  are  about 
the  commercial  prices,  I  would  say,  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  there  was  no  excessive  profit  by  reason  of  the 
sale  as  it  was  handled  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No,  not  a  great  deal. 

]Mr.  Tavenner.  Over  what  you  would  have  paid? 

Dr.  Merritt.  A  little  bit.  I  would  say  these  were  50  or  40  cents  a 
pound  higher  than  we  would  have  paid,  in  that  order,  but  nothing 
exorbitant. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Dr.  Merritt,  are  you  familiar  with  the  details  sur- 
rounding the  issuance  of  the  second  export  license,  that  is,  the  license 
for  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide, 
which  was  issued  in  April  1943  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  am  not  familiar  with  all  the  details  on  the  actual 
issuance  of  the  license. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Let  me  ask  you  this :  The  files  of  Lend-Lease  Ad- 
ministration reflect  that  on  April  14,  1943,  a  letter  was  written  by  Mr. 
William  C.  Moore,  of  the  Lend-Lease  Administration,  to  Mr.  N.  S. 
Fomichev,  in  charge  of  chemicals.  Government  Purchasing  Commis- 
sion of  the  Soviet  Union,  advising  him  that  his  application  for  the 
issuance  of  an  export  license  to  export  500  pounds  each  of  uranium 
nitrate  and  uranium  oxide  had  been  denied.  However,  the  files  also 
indicate  that  export  license  1643180  was  subsequently  issued  to  tha 
Soviet  commission  on  April  26,  1943.  Can  you  explain  why  the  li- 
cense which  was  denied  by  Lend-Lease  on  April  14  was  subsequently 
issued  ? 

Dr.  Merritt,  I  don't  know  if  I  have  a  good  explanation  of  it.  I  can 
surmise,  if  you  care  for  me  to  do  that.     I  really  don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  don't  want  surmises  about  it,  but  can  you  give  us 
any  facts  relating  to  the  matter  which  the  committee  could  use  for  its 
information? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  that  after  the  date  of  the  original  letter  by 
Mr.  Moore  we  had  a  very  finn  commitment  from  Shattuck,  who  had 
this  order  before  it  at  the  time,  that  they  would  not  deliA''er  under  it. 
This  order  was  placed  with  Shattuck,  I  believe,  early  in  April — I  am 
not  quite  certain  of  the  date — and  sometime  in  the  latter  part  of  April 
Mr.  Potter  told  me  that  they  would  not  deliver  under  this  order. 
Whether  that  had  anything  to  do  with  the  change,  I  don't  know. 
We  then  were  quite  certain  we  had  every  source  blocked  up.  It  may 
have  been  that  we  felt  it  all  right  to  give  them  the  license  because- 
we  thought  we  had  every  source  blocked  up.     I  don't  know. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  989 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  were  negotiations  conducted  between  the 
Manhattan  Engineering  District  and  other  Government  agencies  re- 
garding this  change  of  attitude  about  the  license,  do  you  know  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  didn't  have  anything  to  do  with  those  negotiations. 
I  believe  General  Groves  or  Colonel  Johnson  or  perhaps  Colonel  Cren- 
shaw could  tell  you  more  about  that.  I  was  not  too  much  involved  with 
other  agencies,  at  my  level. 

Mr.  Tavenxer.  Are  you  acquainted  with  James  P.  Hoopes,  for- 
merly associate  liaison  officer,  and  finally  liaison  officer,  in  the  Office 
of  Lend-Lease  Administration,  Division  for  Soviet  Supply? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No.  I  have  seen  his  name  on  letters,  but  have  never 
spoken  to  him  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Can  you  state  whether  or  not  you  had  a  telephone 
conversation  with  Mr.  Hoopes  on  or  about  April  22,  1943  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  recall.  I  recall  speaking  to  Mr.  Moore,  but 
not  Mr.  Hoopes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Whether  you  thought  you  were  speaking  to  Mr. 
Hoopes  or  Mr.  ]\Ioore,  do  you  recall  whether  or  not  you  advised  the 
official  in  Lend-Lease  that  pressure  had  just  been  brought  to  bear  on 
General  Groves  to  release  the  1,000  pounds? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  recall  stating  that,  Mr.  Tavenner. 
]\Ir.  Ta\-enner.  Independently  of  your  recollection  of  the  telephone 
conversation,  did  any  fact  come  to  your  attention,  or  were  you  told  by 
any  member  of  your  staff,  that  pressure  of  any  description  was  brought 
t  o  bear  on  General  Groves  to  change  the  decision  about  the  issuance  of 
the  license  for  this  particular  shipment  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  recall  that  at  all.  There  was  a  great  deal  of 
pressure  for  a  decision,  I  know  that,  but  whether  there  was  any  indi- 
vidual pressure  or  not,  I  wouldn't  know  the  person,  I  am  sure,  who 
might  have  brought  it. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Wliat  do  you  mean  by  a  great  deal  of  pressure  for  a 
decision  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  This  thing  had  been  going  along  for  quite  a  while,  and 
these  people  wanted  to  get  it  decided  one  way  or  another  so  that  Lend- 
Lease  could  be  given  an  answer. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  assume  Lend-Lease  was  trying  to  get  it  expedited. 
This  doesn't  mean  they  were  trying  to  get  an  adverse  decision  ? 
Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  Lend-Lease  was  interested 
in  getting  negative  decisions  on  shipments  they  were  trying  to  ex- 
pedite ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  was  involved  with  Lend-Lease  very  little. 
Mr.  Nixon.  But  it  seems  obvious  that  Lend-Lease  was  interested 
in  expediting  shipments  rather  than  getting  them  turned  down? 
Dr.  Merritt.  Maybe  so.    I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  tlie  names  of  officials  of  Lend-Lease 
who  conferred  with  anyone  in  your  office  regarding  this  shipment  ? 
Dr.  Merritt.  The  only  names  I  recall  are  Moore  and  Hoopes. 
Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  any  official  in  the  Bureau  of  Economic  War- 
fare confer  with  anyone  in  your  office  regarding  this  shipment,  to 
your  knowledge  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  the  War  Production  Board  membership  in- 
volved in  any  way  with  this  particular  license? 


990  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Dr.  Merritt.  That,  I  don't  know.  I  presume  they  were  aware  of 
it,  but  I  don't  know.    They  may  have  been  aware  of  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  any  person  other  than  an  official  of  one  of  the 
Government  agencies  that  I  mentioned  confer  with  j'ou  or  any  mem- 
ber of  your  staff  with  regard  to  expediting  the  approval  of  this  parti- 
cular license? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Why  do  you  say  there  was  a  great  deal  of  pressure  if 
none  of  these  people  talked  to  you  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  There  were  a  lot  of  phone  calls  from  our  office  in 
Washington  and  from  us  to  them. 

Mr.  Nixon.  What  do  you  mean  by  "to  them"  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  To  our  Washington  office. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  are  speaking  of  your  own  interoffice  communi- 
cations ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  Colonel  Crenshaw  carried  on  most  of  them, 
I  presume,  with  Colonel  Johnson. 

Mr.  NixoN.  And  the  reason  for  that  was  that  the  heat  was  on  from 
Lend-Lease? 

Dr.  Merritt.  It  was  not  on  me. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  said  there  was  a  great  deal  of  pressure  for  a 
decision? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Nixon.  So  you  knew  it  was  something  more  than  an  ordinary 
case  ? 

Dr.  IVIerritt.  Surely, 

Mr.  Nixon.  This  was  a  case  where  you  thought  it  was  top  priority 
to  get  something  done  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Because  of  the  pressure  that  was  coming.  Is  that 
correct  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  think  so,  Mr.  Nixon. 

Mr.  Case.  You  say  Colonel  Crenshaw  handled  the  negotiations  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  he  conferred  with  officials  of  Lend-Lease  Ad- 
ministration on  the  subject.     I  know  he  did. 

Mr.  Case.  You  don't  think  Colonel  Crenshaw  initiated  the  conversa- 
tions with  Lend-Lease? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No.  It  probably  came  the  other  way.  I  am  sure 
Lend-Lease  initiated  the  conversations. 

Mr.  Case.  So  you  think  there  was  a  great  deal  of  pressure  on  Colonel 
Oenshaw,  and  that  it  came  from  Lend-Lease? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  Colonel  Crenshaw  could  answer  that  better 
than  I  could. 

Mr.  Case.  But  you  know  the  telephone  calls  to  Colonel  Crenshaw 
came  from  Lend-Lease? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  know  he  conversed  with  them  quite  often,  and  I  am 
sure  Colonel  Johnson  did,  too,  in  Washington. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  there  anyone  employed  in  the  Washington 
office  in  addition  to  Colonel  Johnson? 

Dr.  Merritt.  There  were  a  good  many  people  there.  I  don't  know 
their  names.     He  and  his  staff  handled  this  particular  type  of  thing. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wlio  composed  his  staff  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  can't  remember  their  names,  it  has  been  so  long. 
He  was  our  principal  contact.    He  had  many  other  people  there. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  991 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  When  did  you  state  that  you  had  your  conference 
with  the  Shattuck  Co.  and  secured  the  agreement  that  they  would  not 
ship  any  more  uranium  'i 

l3r.  Merritt.  It  was  in  the  Latter  part  of  April  that  I  had  a  tele- 
plione  conversation  with  tliem.  I  do  not  know  the  exact  date.  I 
believe  a  memorandum  I  have  was  dated  April  29  to  the  effect  I  had 
conversed  with  them,  presumably  in  the  last  few  days. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  The  files  of  Lend-Lease  disclose,  as  shown  by  evi- 
dence already  introduced,  that  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission 
advised  Lend-Lease  that  the  delay  in  issuing  the  license  was  so  great 
that  the  supplier  had  canceled  the  order.  Do  you  recall  having  heard 
that  i 

Dr.  Merrttt.  Yes ;  that  is  correct.  Mr.  Potter,  in  the  early  conver- 
sations, said  he  had  a  feeler  for  the  order — I  believe  that  is  the  way 
he  put  it — but  tliat  nothing  else  had  come  through  and  that  he  would 
be  willing  to  tell  them  at  that  point  that  he  had  no  more  supply. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  other  words,  at  the  time  of  your  conference  with 
Potter  the  order  had  not  been  turned  down  by  him  or  withdrawn  ? 

(Representative  Walter  enters  hearing  room). 

Dr.  MERRi'n\  Early  in  April  I  probably  talked  to  him.  I  believe 
I  talked  to  liim  personally  the  latter  part  of  March  or  early  in  April. 
1  don't  know  if  he  had  the  order  at  that  time  or  not.     He  probably  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  you  learned  that  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Com- 
mission advised  they  could  not  obtain  the  material  from  their  sup- 
plier, was  it  considered  that  the  strategy  of  handling  the  thing  had 
been  successful? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  We  felt  we  had  been  successful  in  blocking  the 
sale. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  done  about  withdrawing  the  license  which 
had  been  authorized  to  be  issued  and  which  you  now  know  was  issued? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  think  anything  was  done. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  normally  the  life  of  such  a  license? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  know  what  the  life  was  of  a  Lend-Lease  or 
BEW  license. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliatever  the  period  of  its  life  may  be,  it  existed 
as  a  constant  threat,  did  it  not,  during  that  period  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  Still,  we  felt  we  had  all  sources  completely 
blocked  and  it  didn't  make  any  particular  difference  if  there  was  a 
license  outstanding. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  learn  that  very  soon  after  the  Shattuck  Co. 
witlidrew  its  offer  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  filed  a  request 
with  Lend-Lease  to  amend  this  license? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  didn't  know  of  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  didn't  know  of  that? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  mean  as  far  ^.s  you  know  the  Manhattan  Engi- 
neering District  was  not  advised  that  an  application  had  been  received 
to  amend  the  license? 

Dr.  Merritt.  As  far  as  I  know.  I  was  not  aware  of  it.  Whether 
someone  else  was  or  not,  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  you  don't  know  of  your  own  knowledge 
whether  or  not  it  actually  was  amended  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  right. 


992  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Had  you  known  that  on  the  29th  of  April,  1943, 
this  license  was  actually  amended  to  show  a  different  constituency  of 
chemical  analysis  of  the  material  sought  to  be  exported,  wouldn't  it 
have  acted  as  a  red  flag  to  you,  and  you  would  have  known  immediately 
that  the  material  was  available  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Probably  so. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Is  there  any  other  conclusion? 

Dr.  Mekritt.  That  is  probably  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  earlier  that  the  original 
license  had  come  to  your  attention? 

Dr.  Merritt.  The  original  license  itself  never  came  to  my  attention. 
i  think  probably  we  were  aware  something  was  going  on,  but  I  never 
saw  the  license  and  I  don't  believe  I  was  aware  it  was  actually  issued. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Wlio  was  aware  of  it  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  think  the  Washington  office  must  have  been  aware 
of  it. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Your  Washington  office? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  I  think  General  Groves  testified  he  was  aware 
of  it. 

Mr.  Nixon.  As  to  the  amendment  of  the  original  license,  was  your 
Washington  office  informed  of  that  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  know.    They  should  have  been  aware  of  it. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  is  the  point.  In  other  words,  the  amendment 
should  have  been  made 

Dr.  Merritt.  Clear  to  them. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Clear  to  them  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Surely. 

Mr.  Nixon.  If  they  had  been  made  aware  of  the  amendment,  they 
would  not  have  found  out  about  the  shipment  for  the  first  time  last 
year?     You  didn't  find  out  about  the  shipment  until  last  year? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  right,  here,  in  June  1948. 

Mr.  Nixon.  In  other  words,  the  fact  that  the  office  which  had 
jurisdiction  over  the  original  license,  your  Washington  office,  was 
not  informed  of  the  amendment,  indicates  it  might  have  been  a  highly 
irregular  procedure  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  If  they  were  not  informed,  yes.  I  can't  say  whether 
or  not  they  were  informed. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  During  the  course  of  the  time  that  the  matter  of 
the  issuance  of  the  license  was  pending,  was  the  question  of  furnish- 
ing a  substitute  material  to  the  Russians  considered  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  There  was  some  thought  at  one  time,  and  cor- 
respondence, I  believe,  between  Colonel  Crenshaw  and  perhaps  Mr. 
Hoopes.  I  have  read  the  correspondence  recently.  I  didn't  know 
about  it  at  the  time.  But  we  had  located  some  uranium  steel  alloy. 
There  wasn't  much  of  it.  It  had  been  made  years  before,  I  believe,  by 
the  Latrobe  Steel  Co.  There  was  .some  thought  at  one  time  of  letting 
them  have  that  useless  material  rather  than  what  they  wanted.  Our 
correspondence  showed  there  was  some  negotiation  along  that  line,  but 
it  stopped  and  nothing  happened  about  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  recall  talking  to  Mr.  Hoopes  about  a  sub- 
stitute ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  The  correspondence  was  all  between  Colonel  Crenshaw 
and  Mr.  Hoopes,  I  believe,  on  that. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  993 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  substitute  material 
which  you  proposed  giving  to  the  Russians  would  have  been  adequate 
for  the  purposes  for  which  the  Russians  said  they  wanted  to  use  the 

material  ?  . 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  am  not  a  metallurgist.    I  believe  it  was  quite  useless 

material. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  think  it  may  have  been  useless  even  for  the 
purpose  for  which  they  said  they  wanted  it? 

Dr.  Merritt.  It  is  possible.     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  don't  know  ^ 

Dr.  Merritt.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  other  words,  you  are  not  answering  the  question 
in  the  aflirmative  or  negative? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No. 

Mr.  Walter.  Why  was  consideration  given  to  the  sending  of  worth- 
less material  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  think  Colonel  Crenshaw  could  answer  that  better 

than  I  could. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  were  in  on  the  discussions  as  to  the  sending  of  this 
worthless  material,  were  you  not? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No;  I  was  not.     I  read  the  correspondence. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  have  just  testified  from  the  correspondence? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  the  correspondence  indicate  the  reason  why  con- 
sideration was  given  to  the  sending  of  worthless  material? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  confer  at  any  time  with  General  Groves 
regarding  the  issuance  of  this  license  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  with  General  Groves  personally ;  no. 

Mr.  Velue.  Did  you  confer  with  any  member  of  the  security  office 
other  than  General  Groves  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  Colonel  Johnson  and  Colonel  Crenshaw  car- 
ried on  all  our  conversations. 

Mr.  Case.  When  you  said  there  were  negotiations  to  let  "them"  have 
the  worthless  material,  whom  did  you  mean  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  The  Russians. 

Mr.  Case.  Then  you  understood  there  was  a  determined  effort  on 
the  part  of  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  to  obtain  uranium? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Apparently ;  yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Whose  decision  was  it  to  send  worthless  material? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  think  General  Groves. 

Mr.  Walter.  The  hnal  decision  would  have  been  his? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  think  so;  yes. 

Mr.  Case.  That  is,  if  tlie  matter  came  to  him  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  If  the  matter  came  to  him. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  the  BEW  submit  to  General  Groves  any  request  for 
export  licenses  for  the  shipment  of  uranium? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  know  whether  it  did  or  not. 

IVIr.  Case.  In  your  attempt  to  corral  the  sources  of  supply  and  dis- 
tribution of  this  material,  did  you  make  any  contact  with  BEW? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  recall  having  one  meeting  with  Dr.  Bateman  and 
some  members  of  his  staff  on  uranium.  It  had  nothing  to  do  with 
export ;  it  had  to  do  with  possible  foreign  sources  and  some  way  they 
could  assist  us  in  our  procurement  program. 

99334—50 7 


994  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Case.  But  there  was  no  conversation  on  the  exporting  of  it  ? 

Dr.  IVIerritt.  I  don't  believe  these  people  were  involved  in  export 
control. 

Mr.  Case.  Who  was  Dr.  Bateman? 

Dr.  Merritt.  He  was  professor  of  geology  at  Yale. 

Mr.  Case.  What  position  was  he  holding  at  that  time  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  recall  exactly.  He  was  in  charge  of  some  sort 
of  foreign  procurement,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Case.  With  whom? 

Dr.  Merritt.  With  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare.  It  was  on 
procurement. 

Mr,  Wood.  You  were  aware,  were  you  not,  Doctor,  at  all  times  dur- 
ing these  transactions,  that  material  of  this  character  could  not  be 
exported  from  this  country  without  an  export  license  issued  by  BEAV? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  so,  yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  Wliy  was  it  you  felt  impelled  to  block  up  all  sources 
of  supply  if  in  fact  none  of  it  could  be  shipped  out  without  an  export 
license '( 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  felt  we  could  control  it. 

Mr.  Wood.  Were  you  apprehensive  a  license  might  be  issued  without 
your  knowledge? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  wanted  this  material  ourselves. 

Mr.  Wood.  But  you  were  aware  the  material  could  not  be  shipped 
out  of  the  country  without  a  license,  and  that  the  license  would  have 
to  be  issued  by  an  agency  of  the  United  States  Government  which  pre- 
sumably was  as  much  interested  in  preserving  the  security  as  you  were, 
so  why  didn't  you  rely  on  them  ? 

Dr.  IVIerritt.  I  think  we  were  trying  to  do  those  things  ourselves. 

Mr.  Wood.  There  was,  in  fact,  a  license  issued  and  amended  without 
your  knowledge? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Apparently  so,  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  heavy  water  was 
shi]3ped  to  Bussia 

Mr.  Nixon.  Excuse  me.  Am  I  correct  in  the  assumption  from  your 
testimony  that  this  transaction  in  regard  to  the  shipment  of  1,000 
pounds  was  a  well-known  transaction  in  your  office  and  in  the  office  in 
Washington,  it  was  discussed  by  telephone  and  otherwise,  because  of 
the  efforts  being  made  to  get  decision? 

Dr.  IVIerritt.  I  think  so,  yes'. 

Mr.  Nixon.  It  was  a  transaction  which  was  out  of  the  ordinary? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Nixox.  And  for  that  reason,  I  suppose  the  fact  that  this  ship- 
ment had.  actually  been  made  as  a  result  of  an  amended  order  which 
apparently  did  not  come  to  your  office  was  quite  surprising  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  It  was,  Mr.  Nixon. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Mr.  Burman's  testimony  yesterday  was  that  you  learned 
for  the  first  time  in  1948,  from  this  committee,  that  this  shipment  had 
actually  been  made  as  a  result  of  an  amended  license  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  It  means,  in  other  words,  that  this  amended  license 
went  around  the  ordinary  channels,  assuming  it  did  not  go  through 
your  Washington  office? 

Dr.  Merritt,  Assuming  it  did  not  go  through  our  Washington 
office  and  ordinary  channels;  yes. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  995 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  these  people  who  were  attempting  to  get  the  order 
filled,  Lend-Lease,  could  not  have  helped  being  aware  of  the  fact  there 
was  considerable  discussion  and  resistance  in  your  office  to  having  the 
license  issued? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  that  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  what  the  procedure  was  for  issuing 
export  licenses? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  do  not  know  the  procedure.  We  were  not  involved 
in  the  actual  licenses. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  And  I  assume  it  was  not  the  practice  for  these 
licenses  to  clear  through  your  office? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  through  our  New  York  office ;  no. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  take  any  steps,  other  than  this  talk  with  Dr. 
Bateman,  to  be  informed  of  the  issuance  of  licenses  for  the  shipment 
of  materials  of  this  tj^pe  out  of  the  country? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No.  Anything  like  that  would  have  been  handled  by 
Colonel  Johnson  in  the  Wasliington  office. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  heavy-water  ship- 
ments were  made  to  Russia  during  the  war  years  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  was  never  involved  in  the  subject  at  all  in  any  way. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  what  controls  were  set  up  governing 
the  shipment  of  heavy  water  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No  ;  I  do  not.  Heavy  water  was  out  of  my  province 
entirely. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Walter? 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  your  office  have  any  direct  responsibility,  other 
than  a  desire  to  preserve  this  strategic  material,  in  the  issuance  of 
export  licenses? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  had  no  responsibility  at  all  in  that  regard  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No. 

Mr.  Wood.  That  was  the  responsibility  of  BEW,  wasn't  it  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Nixon. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  will  pass  this  time. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Case. 

Mr.  Case.  Dr.  Merritt,  as  I  understand,  you  stated  you  had  started 
out  trying  to  buy  all  the  uranium  on  the  market  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  And  you  first  made  a  contract  with  Vitro? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  Was  that  a  firm  contract,  that,  if  they  had  any  to  sell  or 
acquired  any,  they  should  come  to  you  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  recall  the  exact  terms  of  that  contract.  We 
worked  closely  with  them,  and  I  am  sure  nothing  could  have  gone 
wrong  in  any  way  with  that  company.  We  had  full  confidence  in. 
them.     I  don't  recall  the  exact  terms  of  the  contract. 

Mr.  Case.  No  sale,  as  far  as  you  know,  w^as  made  by  Vitro  to  anyone 
except  yourself,  acting  for  the  Manhattan  District  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Case.  What  steps  did  you  take  with  Shattuck  to  insure  that 
their  sales  would  be  entirely  to  the  Manhattan  District  ? 


996  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  never  bought  any  uranium  from  Shattuck  at  all. 
They  were  a  very,  very  small  supplier,  and  their  sales,  I  believe,  at  a 
later  date,  were  well  controlled  through  the  War  Production  Board. 
Their  sales  were  for  essential  domestic  purposes. 

Mr.  Case.  You  said  you  had  a  firm  commitment  from  them.  Wliat 
was  that  firm  commitment? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  they  would  refuse  any  foreign  orders,  and  I 
believe  that  they  would  keep  us  informed  on  other  ordei-s  they  had. 

Mr.  Case.  Was  that  by  letter,  contract,  or  telephone  conversation? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Personally,  I  had  one  telephone  conversation  with 
them.  I  think  Mr.  Burman  visited  them  many  times  during  the  war, 
I  had  very  little  contact  with  them  after  that  one  telephone  con- 
versation. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  there  Avas  any  written 
understanding  with  them? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No ;  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Case.  In  any  event,  this  firm  commitment,  which  you  don't 
know  if  it  was  put  in  writing  or  not,  was  made  after  the  shipment 
of  the  420  pounds? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Case.  What  was  Mr.  Potter's  connection  with  Shattuck? 

Dr.  Merritt.  He  is  president,  I  believe,  of  Shattuck  Chemical  Co. 

Mr.  Case.  Earlier  in  your  testimony  you  referred  to  an  effort  to 
control  purchases  of  all  ceramics,  I  believe.    Did  you  say  that? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Uranium  for  ceramic  coloring;  yes.  We  purchased  a 
good  deal  of  uranium  from  ceramic  companies. 

Mr.  Case.  From  pottery  companies  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  That  is  the  transaction  we  handled  through 
Vitro. 

Mr.  Case.  Keferring  to  your  contract  with  Boris  Pregel,  did  that 
contract  require  the  contractor  to  notify  you  and  tender  to  you  any 
of  the  three  materials  mentioned  which  they  had  or  might  acquire? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  the  way  I  would  interpret  it ;  yes.  That  was 
the  intention. 

Mr.  Case.  It  could  have  been  a  contract  merely  that  Manhattan 
would  be  willing  to  buy,  but  did  it  also  provide  they  must  offer  to 
Manhattan  any  of  these  materials  they  had  or  might  acquire? 

Dr.  Merritt.  The  wording  is: 

In  addition  to  the  materials  contracted  for  in  section  (1)  above  mentioned, 
the  Contractor  gives  to  the  Government  for  a  period  of  one  year,  from  the  date 
hereof,  the  initial  ri.s:ht  to  purchase  from  time  to  time,  any  or  all  of  these  three 
materials  received  by  the  Contractor. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  contract  provided  any 
methods  for  implementing  that  right? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Except  presumably  they  would  notify  us  when  they 
received  anything. 

Mr.  Case.  You  don't  know  if  the  contract  was  specific  on  that 
point  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  believe  it  was  specific  on  that  point. 

Mr.  Case.  Under  that  contract,  would  you  understand  that  Man- 
hattan would  have  the  right  of  refusal  beifore  any  of  these  materials 
were  released  for  sale  elsewhere  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  997 

Mr.  Case.  Were  you  offered  this  material  which  later  the  Canadian 
Kadium  &  Uranium  Corp.  sold  elsewhere  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  were  not  offered  this  material  so  far  as  I  aan 
aware. 

Mr.  Case.  State  again  what  the  relationship  was  between  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  and  Eldorado  Mines. 

Dr.  Merritt.  It  was  my  understanding  that  at  that  time  Cana- 
dian Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  had  a  contract  whereby  they  were 
exclusive  sales  agents  for  Eldorado.  That  agreement  is  no  longer 
in  existence,  but  it  was  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Case.  At  that  time  they  had  the  same  exclusive  right  to  the 
products  of  Eldorado  Mines  that  Manhattan  had  to  the  materials 
which  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  acquired? 

Dr.  Merritt.  So  I  understand.  I  have  never  seen  the  agreement, 
but  I  understand  that  is  correct. 

Mr.  Case.  Except  that  the  contract  between  Manhattan  and  Cana- 
dian Radium  &  Uranium  was  not  limited  to  material  that  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  might  get  from  Eldorado  mines? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Anything  they  might  get  from  anybody. 

Mr.  Case.  Were  any  penalties  or  forfeitures  provided  for  failure  to 
give  jNIanhattan  this  first  right  to  buy  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Case.  I  find  that  it  is  difficult,  without  the  transcript  of  the 
other  hearings,  to  keep  all  these  separate  shipments  in  mind,  but  I 
would  like  to  ask  you  two  questions  with  regard  to  those  that  come  to 
my  mind.  The  first  question  is  whether  or  not  you  knew  of  these  ship- 
ments or  sales  prior  to  the  disclosures  made  in  the  hearings  before 
the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  and,  if  so,  when  you 
learned  of  them,  first  in  regard  to  the  shipment  of  the  Shattuck  mate- 
rial, the  420  pounds,  in  March  19-i3  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  knew  of  that  at  the  time  of  shipment. 

Mr.  Case.  You  knew  of  that  at  the  time  of  shipment? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Surely. 

Mr.  Case,  When  did  you  first  hear  of  the  request  that  was  made  for 
8  or  81/2  tons  by  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  in  1943? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  we  first  heard  of  it  early  in  February  1943. 

Mr.  Case.  Was  that  request  made  to  Lend-Lease  or  to  Chemical 
Warfare? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  to  Lend-Lease.  I  believe  we  had  our  infor- 
mation from  the  War  Production  Board,  but  I  believe  they  got  it 
from  Lend-Lease. 

Mr.  Case.  When  did  you  first  learn  that  the  request  was  renewed 
in  1944? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Renewed? 

Mr.  Case.  Yes ;  that  8-ton  request. 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  didn't  know  it  was  renewed. 

Mr.  Case.  Wlien  did  you  first  learn  of  this  1,000-pound  item  that 
was  involved  in  this  license  and  amended  license  of  April  1943  2 

Dr.  Merritt.  Before  this  committee  in  closed  session  on  June  29, 
1948, 

Mr.  Case.  And  you  didn't  know  until  this  morning  that  the  export 
license  had  been  amended  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No  ;  I  didn't. 


998  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Case.  And  when  did  you  first  hear  of  the  MacKay  shipment 
of  2.2  pounds  of  uranium  metal  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  at  the  time  of  shipment  I  was  aware  of  that. 

Mr.  Case.  When  did  you  first  learn  of  the  45 -pound  shipment  of 
June  1944,  that  was  purchased  by  the  Treasury  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yesterday. 

Mr.  Case.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Velde. 

Mr.  Velde.  That  45  pounds  of  uranium,  was  that  what  you  call  pure 
uranium  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  it  was  uranium  nitrate. 

Mr.  Velde.  How  much  actual  ore  would  that  represent  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  uranium  nitrate  is  about  50  percent  uranium ; 
about  half  of  that  is  metal ;  the  actual  U  content  would  be  about  half 
of  that. 

Mr.  Velde.  So  that  the  uranium  ore  would  be  about  90  pounds  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No  ;  about  20  or  25  pounds  of  uranium  element  in  the 
shipment  of  nitrate. 

Mr.  Velde.  We  have  been  discussing  the  shipment  of  1,000  pounds 
that  was  made  from  Great  Falls,  Mont.  How  would  you  describe 
that? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  believe  500  pounds  of  that  was  oxide,  and  would 
probably  run  about  97  percent,  calculated  as  uranium  oxide ;  and  the 
other  500  pounds  would  be  about  half  that.    I  am  not  quite  certain. 

Mr.  Velde.  Would  you  say  this  45  pounds  of  uranium,  compared 
to  the  1,000-pound  shipment,  would  be  insignificant? 

Dr.  Merritt.  It  would  be  very  small  compared  to  the  1,000-pound 
shipment,  surely. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  mentioned  previously  that  you  felt  you  had  the 
entire  output  of  uranium  in  the  country  tied  up  by  contract? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  have  the  feeling  you  also  had  the  entire  output 
of  the  Canadian  Government  tied  up  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  had  a  good  many  contracts  with  them.  I  don't 
l)elieve  at  that  time  they  were  exclusive,  they  could  sell  to  other  people, 
but  I  don't  believe  they  did  in  any  quantities. 

Mr.  Velde.  Are  there  any  companies  or  individuals  who  control 
uranium  in  Canada,  other  than  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium 
Corp.? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No.  All  uranium  is  controlled  through  Eldorado, 
which  is  a  crown  company  owned  by  the  Government. 

Mr.  Velde.  By  the  Canadian  Government? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes.  It  is  a  crown  company.  I  think  that  was 
acquired  back  in  1944  from  the  private  company  that  held  it  prior 
to  that  time. 

Mr.  Velde.  Have  you  had  any  contract  directly  with  an  agent  of 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No. 

Mr.  Velde.  Or  has  anybody  in  your  immediate  office  force? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  believe  anybody  did  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Wood,  Mr.  Kearney. 

Mr.  Kearney.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Nixon. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  999 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  said  you  were  not  concerned  with  the  fact  there 
might  be  an  export  license  outstanding  for  this  material,  because  of 
3'our  feeling  you  had  the  sources  pretty  well  tied  up  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  On  this  1,000-pound  shipment  which  was  made,  and 
the  other  shipment  which  apparently  was  made  without  your  knowl- 
edge, do  I  understand  those  shipments  were  made  from  concerns 
whose  outputs  you  had  not  tied  up  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  The  1,000  pounds  were  shipped,  apparently,  from 
Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  which  we  thought  we  had  tied  up. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  can't  quite  understand  that.  When  you  say  that  you 
had  it  tied  up 

Dr.  Merritt.  Through  this  contract. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Through  this  contract? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  yet  the  same  company  makes  the  shipment.  Do 
I  understand  that  under  the  contract  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium 
Corp.  gave  you  the  exclusive  right  to  purchase  uranium  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Would  that  shipment  be  a  violation  of  the  contract? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  am  not  a  lawyer,  but  as  a  layman  it  would  look 
that  way. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Could  this  have  been  due  to  failure  to  understand  the 
contract  on  the  part  of  Mr.  Pregel  and  other  officials  of  the  company, 
or  had  such  conversations  been  had  at  the  time  of  the  entering  into  of 
tlie  contract  that  they  knew  what  you  were  trying  to  do? 

Dr.  Merritt.  The  wording  is  very  clear,  I  think,  and  it  should  have 
been  clear  what  we  were  trying  to  do. 

Mr.  Nixon.  The  wording  and  the  negotiations  preceding  the  mak- 
ing of  the  contract  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  This  was  not  a  case  where  you  were  dealing  with  a  con- 
tractor on  the  other  side  who  was  not  aware  of  the  very  serious  nature 
of  this  contract  insofar  as  the  security  of  this  country  was  concerned? 

Dr.  INIerritt.  I  think  he  should  have  been  aware  of  it. 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  if  under  the  circumstances  the  shipment  was  made, 
and  if  that  shipment  was  a  violation  of  the  contract,  it  would  appear 
then  that  tliere  was  a  deliberate  act  which  was  considerably  more  than 
a  violation  of  a  business  contract? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  suppose  so. 

Mr.  Walter.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  Canadian  Government 
brought  suit  against  these  people  and  recovered  from  them  for  a 
violation  of  contract;  didn't  it? 

Dr.  jNIerritt.  There  was  a  suit  which  extended  over  a  long  number 
of  years  between  the  two,  and  it  was  finally  settled  out  of  court,  I 
understand. 

Mr.  Case.  Between  what  two  ? 
Dr.  Merritt.  Canadian  Radium  and  Eldorado. 
Mr.  Nixon.  You  understand,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  point  I  am  trying 
to  make  goes  farther  than  the  money  value  our  Government  or  the 
Canadian  Government  could  recover  for  violation  of  contract.  I  think 
the  committee  should  explore  why,  under  those  circumstances,  the  ship- 
ment was  made. 


1000  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  rely  upon  the  laws  of  the  agency  to  make  the  con- 
tract by  Pregel  control  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium,  or  did  Pregel 
in  his  contract  with  you  set  forth  his  ability  to  control  the  actions 
of  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Co.  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  relied  on  him  pretty  much.  He  advised  us  that 
he  was  sole  sales  agent.  So,  it  was  not  necessary,  if  that  was  true, 
to  insert  similar  clauses  in  other  contracts. 

Mr.  Case.  What  steps  did  you  take  to  determine  if  he  was  the  sole 
sales  agent  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  had  attempted  prior  to  that  time  to  deal  directly 
with  Eldorado,  and  were  told  by  officials  of  Eldorado  they  could  not 
deal  with  us,  but  only  Mr.  Pregel. 

Mr.  Case.  Pregel  was  president  of  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Ura- 
nium Corp.  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  And  he  signed  this  contract  as  president  of  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  He  signed  as  agent,  I  believe,  and  they  were  hooked 
up  in  the  secret  letter. 

Mr.  Case.  And  the  contract  made  the  secret  letter  a  part  of  it  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct,  yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  other  questions? 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  understood  you  to  mention  Vitro,  and  I  believe  you 
said  you  dealt  so  closely  with  them  that  you  had  no  concern  over 
the  possibility  that  that  company  would  violate  a  contract  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  recall  whether  we  had  a  similar  clause  in  our 
contract  with  them. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Did  you  work  closely  with  Mr.  Pregel  as  well? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  worked  with  him  closely  to  a  point,  and  then 
had  no  further  dealings  with  him  later  on. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Prior  to  the  time  this  shipment  was  made,  you  had 
been  working  with  him  rather  closely  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Did  you  work  with  him  yourself? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes ;  I  did.    Other  people  worked  with  him,  too. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Was  there  any  question  but  that  he  himself  knew  why 
the  Government  was  tying  up  this  material? 

Dr.  Merritt.  There  is  no  question  in  my  mind  but  that  he  knew. 
He  was  aware  of  the  Manhattan  project. 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  he  knew  why  you  made  this  contract? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  assume  so. 

Mr.  Case.  And  he  was  the  sole  sales  agent.  So,  if  he  arranged  a 
sale  with  another  party,  he  did  so  knowing  of  the  significance  of  the 
sale? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  suppose  so. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  relied  entirely  upon  the  representation  Mr.  Pregel 
made  to  you  with  respect  to  his  ability  to  control  the  output  in 
Canada? 

Dr.  Merritt.  We  had  contact  with  officials  of  Eldorado  also. 

Mr.  Walter.  They  refused  to  do  business  with  you  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Walter.  Then,  as  I  understand  it,  you  relied  entirely  on  the 
representation  Mr.  Pregel  made  to  you  of  his  ability  to  control  the 
Canadian  output? 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1001 

Dr.  Merritt.  At  that  time ;  yes. 

Mr.  Case.  In  your  contact  with  Eldorado,  did  they  confirm  that 
Pregel  had  sole  control  over  their  output  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  recall.  Our  contracts  were  largely  with  Cana- 
dian Radium  &  Uranium. 

Mr.  Case.  Why  did  you  go  to  Pregel  after  you  had  talked  to  Eldo- 
rado? 

Dr.  Merritt.  They  told  us  to. 

Mr.  Case.  They  told  you  that  because  he  was  the  one  in  charge  of 
their  output  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Did  you  have  the  same  relations  with  Pregel  up  until 
the  time  of  the  contract  that  you  had  with  Vitro? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  believe  so. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  am  trying  to  establish  whether  there  was  any  reason 
for  you  to  be  apprehensive  that  such  a  shipment  might  be  made  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  think  so.  We  had  been  associated  with  the 
other  people  over  a  long  period  of  time,  and  they  had  our  full  con- 
fidence.   They  were  people  of  our  kind. 

Mr.  Walter.  Of  course,  that  is  only  your  own  conclusion.  Wliat 
do  you  base  your  conclusion  on  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Wood.  Dr.  Merritt,  when  the  1,000-pound  shipment  was  finally 
made  from  the  Canadian  company,  had  that  material  been  offered  to 
you  under  your  contract? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No  ;  it  had  not,  that  I  am  aware. 

Mr.  Wood.  W^as  there  any  time  during  the  period  of  the  development 
of  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  that  any  of  your  organizations 
you  had  under  contract  offered  any  of  their  material  to  you  that  you 
'didn't  take  it? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  believe  so. 

Mr.  Wood.  If  this  1,000  pounds  shipped  to  the  Russians  had  been 
offered  to  you,  would  you  have  taken  it? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Surely. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  the  time  when  you  were  endeavoring  in  the  early 
part  of  1943  to  block  foreign  shipments  of  uranium  compounds,  did 
you  confer  with  the  officials  of  Eldorado  mines  in  Canada  regarding 
that  matter? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  have  no  recollection  of  conferring  with  them  re- 
garding the  matter  at  all.  We  advised  Mr.  Pregel  to  so  advise  them, 
I  believe,  in  a  letter  which  was  placed  in  the  record  yesterday. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  dealt  with  their  agent  regarding  the  matter? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Rather  than  dealing  with  the  officials  directly? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  After  this  contract  went  into  force  in  March  1943, 
do  you  know  whether  Eldorado  mines  continued  to  sell  small  quan- 
tities of  uranium  to  various  private  purchasers  or  to  industry  for  com- 
mercial purposes  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  recall  whether  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  was  advised  or  requested  to  agree  to  the  sale  of  uranium  by 
Eldorado  mines  to  other  purchasers  than  to  Manhattan  Engineering 
District,  for  commercial  purposes  ? 


1002  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Dr.  ISIerritt.  There  may  have  been  some  later  on  that  were 
approved. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  You  have  no  personal  knowledge  of  that  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  would  have  personal  knowledge  of  that  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Mr.  Burman  may. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Burman  may  ? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  may  recall  him  to  ask  him  that  question.  Was 
the  Canadian  Government  requested  to  cooperate  in  this  matter? 

Dr.  Merritt.  Yes ;  they  were,  at  a  later  date. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  late?     Too  late? 

Dr.  JSIerritt.  Too  late,  I  believe.  They,  I  think,  took  over  the  com- 
pany officially  in  eTanuary  1944,  acquired  all  the  stock  at  that  date,  and 
controlled  it  from  then  on. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Thank  you  very  much,  Doctor,  for  your  courtesy  and 
assistance  to  the  committee. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  to  recall  ]\Ir.  Burman  for  one  question. 

Mr.  Wood.  I  believe  you  were  sworn  yesterday  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  That  is  correct. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LAWRENCE  C.  BURMAN— Resumed 

(Having  been  duly  sworn  by  the  committee  on  the  day  previous, 
January  23,  1950,  was  at  this  point  recalled.) 

Mr.  Taa^nner.  'My.  Burman,  after  the  contract  of  IMarch  27,  1943, 
between  INIanhattan  Engineering  District  and  Boris  Pregel,  agent, 
were  sales  made  by  Eldorado  mines  of  small  quantities  of  uranium 
compounds  for  commercial  purposes,  to  your  knowledge  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes ;  they  were. 

JNIr.  Tavenner.  They  were  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Did  Eldorado  mines,  or  the  agency,  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  inform  Manliattan  Engineering  District 
of  that  fact? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes.     They  each  were  approved  in  advance. 

(Representative  Velde  leaves  the  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  They  were  approved  in  advance  ? 

Mr.  BunMAN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Which  was  it,  Eldorado  mines  or  Canadian  Radium 
&  Uranium  Corp.,  that  asked  for  the  approval  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium,  and  deliveries  were 
made  directly  from  Eldorado  mines  at  Port  Hope  to  the  approved  re- 
ceivers. There  were  a  series  of  shipments,  for  example,  to  a  company 
known  as  Keystone  Carbon  Co.,  St.  Mary's,  Pa.,  which  manufactured 
a  special  type  of  electrical  resistor  for  aircraft.  The  district  did  not 
care  to  interfere  with  essential  needs  for  uranium,  and  were  willing 
to  authorize  these  shipments  where  the  need  was  approved. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  But  where  prospects  of  such  sales  occurred,  you 
were  consulted  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  permission  given  in  advance  ? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes,  sir. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1003 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  believe  you  have  already  answered  the  question 
that  no  permission  was  sought  in  the  case  of  the  1,000  pounds  which 
were  sold  to  the  Russian  Purchasing  Agency  ? 

Mv.  BuRMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  at  any  time,  or  did  any  other  member  of 
your  staff,  confer  with  Eldorado  mines  direct  regarding  this  matter; 
that  is,  the  provisions  of  this  contract  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No.  I  was  not  engaged  in  negotiations  on  the  con- 
tract. 

Mr.  Tavexner.  I  have  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Walter.  As  I  understand  it,  for  some  period  of  time  Man- 
hattan project  dealt  with  Pregel  because  Eldorado  refused  to  deal 
directly  because  Pregel  was  their  agent.     Is  that  correct  ? 

INIr.  BuRMAX.  That  is  my  understanding. 

Mr.  Walter.  AVliy  did  Manhattan  then  insist  at  a  later  date  on 
dealing  with  Eldorado  instead  of  following  the  instructions  given 
originally? 

Mr.  BuRMAN".  That  is  rather  difficult  to  answer. 

]\fr.  Walter.  Yes. 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  We  were  directed  at  a  period  later  in  1943 — I  can't 
specify  just  what  the  date  was — to  taper  off  direct  contractual  re- 
lations with  Mr.  Pregel. 

IVIr.  Walter.  T\'Tio  directed  you  to  taper  off  ? 

INfr.  BiTJMAN.  Those  were  directions  from  General  Groves. 

INlr.  Walter.  Did  General  Groves  indicate  any  reason  why  yoit 
should  discontinue  dealing  with  Pregel  ? 

JNIr.  BuRMAN.  I  didn't  receive  those  directions  myself,  so  I  can't 
answer. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  were  in  conference  where  Mr.  Pregel  was  dis- 
cussed, were  you  not  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Not  very  often,  since  I  was  not  in  direct  contact  with 
Mr.  Pregel. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  knew  why  General  Groves  was  desirous  of  deal- 
ing directly  with  Eldorado  and  discontinuing  dealing  with  Pregel, 
did  you  not? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No,  sir;  I  am  afraid  I  didn't. 

Mr.  Walter.  When  you  learned  of  the  shipment  of  the  1,000  pounds, 
did  you  discuss  that  with  Eldorado? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  anybody,  that  you  know  of? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  We  didn't  discuss  it  with  Eldorado,  ])ut  Dr.  Merritt 
did  talk  with  officials — let  me  change  that.  I  think  Dr.  Merritt  talked 
to  Mr.  Bennett,  who,  I  believe,  is  an  official  of  Eldorado. 

Mr.  Walter.  And  he  protested  to  Eldorado  that  the  terms  of  the 
contract  had  been  violated? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  No;  Dr.  Merritt  asked  for  information  from  Mr. 
Bennett  as  to  the  transaction,  but  the  contract  that  was  violated  was 
with  Canadium  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  and  not  Eldorado,  and  the 
company  existing  now  as  Eldorado  is  not  the  same  as  existed  in  1943, 
since  the  Canadian  Government  now  controls  it. 

Mr.  Walter.  This  shipment  of  1,000  pounds  was  made  before  the 
Canadian  Government  had  any  direct  control  over  Eldorado? 

Mr.  Burman.  Yes. 


1004  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  don't  know  if  it  is  clear  as  to  the  time  when  Dr. 
Merritt  had  this  conference  with  Mr.  Bennett  that  you  referred  to. 

Mr.  BuEMAN.  That  was  after  the  information  was  obtained  from 
the  committee  that  the  1,000-pound  shipment  had  taken  place. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  So  that  was  sometime  in  1948  ? 

Mr.  BuRMAN.  Yes ;  after  June  1948. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  After  June  1948  ? 

Mr.  Btjrman.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  questions? 

(No  response.) 

Mr.  Wood.  Thank  you  very  much. 

(Whereupon  the  witness  was  excused.) 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  I  would  like  to  call  Mr.  Hermann  H.  Rosenberg. 

Mr.  Wood.  Will  you  hold  up  your  right  hand  and  be  sworn?  Do 
you  solemnly  swear  the  evidence  you  give  this  committee  shall  be  the 
truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Wood.  Have  a  seat. 

TESTIMONY   OF  HERMANN  H.   ROSENBERG,   ACCOMPANIED  BY 
MANFRED  WOLKISER,  ATTORNEY 

.     Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliat  is  your  full  name,  please? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Hermann  H.  Rosenberg. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  you  accompanied  here  by  counsel? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  Will  counsel  please  state  his  name  and  address  for 
identification  purposes  in  the  record  ? 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  Manfred  Wolkiser,  70  Pine  Street,  New  York  City, 
general  counsel  of  Chematar,  Tnc,  chemical  wholesalers. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Rosenberg,  when  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  was  born  April  21, 1902,  in  Berlin,  Germany. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  you  a  naturalized  citizen  of  the  United  States? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Ta-s^nner.  When  did  you  come  to  the  United  States  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  In  March  1939. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wlien  were  you  naturalized? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  In  August  1945. 

Mr.  Taat^nner.  In  what  type  of  business  enterprise  were  you  en- 
gaged in  Germany  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  In  the  chemical  trade.  It  is  the  same  kind  of  busi- 
ness I  am  engaged  in  now,  and  as  a  matter  of  fact  it  is  the  same  organi- 
zation I  have  been  with  for  the  last  30  years.  This  company  I  am 
associated  with  now,  of  course,  has  been  incorporated  in  the  United 
States  after  our  arrival  in  this  country,  but  it  is  actually  a  continua- 
tion of  our  business  on  the  other  side. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  have  testified  previously  before  this  commit- 
tte,  I  believe  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes;  I  did, 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Rosenberg,  when  did  you  first  confer  with  the 
Russian  Purchasing  Commission  relative  to  the  acquisition  of  uranium 
compounds? 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1005 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  Witliiii  the  course  of  regular  business  with  allied 
purchasino;  commissions  during  the  war,  which  was  practicjilly  the 
only  possibility  of  continuing  business  with  the  overseas  countries  with 
which  we  dealt  in  peacetime,  we  had  contact  also  with  the  Russian 
Purchasing  Commission  by  phone  and  occasional  visits  to  Washington 
when  we  saw  the  other  allied  purchasing  commissions  also,  and  it  was 
the  end  of  January  1943  when  we  got  an  inquiry  from  the  Soviet  Pur- 
chasing Commission. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Regarding  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Ta\t;nner.  It  was  the  latter  part  of  January  1943,  that  you  had 
your  first  contact  with  them  regarding  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  TA^^5NNER.  Had  you  had  transactions  with  the  Russian  Purchas- 
ing Commission  prior  to  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.  According  to  my  best  knowledge  and  belief 
Ave  had  about  five  very  minor  transactions  in  industrial  and  fine  chemi- 
cals with  them  after  the  outbreak  of  war  in  1941,  since  December 
1941,  and  in  1942,  aggregating  a  couple  thousand  dollars,  I  would  say, 
according  to  my  memory ;  a  very  minor  amount. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Would  you  tell  us  the  nature  of  your  first  confer- 
ence with  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  relating  to  uranium? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  do  not  remember  having  had  any  correspondence 
wnth  them,  but  according  to  my  recollection  we  hacl  quite  a  number 
of  telephone  conferences  with  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  receive  a  letter  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes ;  we  received  inquiry  by  a  letter. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  have  the  letter?  We  will  save  time  if  you 
have  the  letter  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  have  not  all  our  correspondence  with  any  of  our 
customers  for  those  years. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  question  was  asked  you  if  you  have  that  letter? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No  ;  I  have  not  that  letter,  but  I  have  the  confirma- 
tion of  that  letter,  and  may  I  explain  the  reason  for  not  having  the 
original  letter  but  having  a  copy  of  our  letter  ?  The  practice  in  our 
company  is  that  we  have  shipping  files — that  means  files  pertain- 
ing to  the  particular  shipment — and  a  regular  file  in  which  an  extra 
copy  of  our  correspondence  is  kept.  We  have  disposed  of  all  the  ship- 
ping files  up  to,  as  far  as  I  remember,  1943  or  1944,  unless  there  is 
correspondence  in  those  particular  shipping  files  of  later  years,  while 
we  have,  of  course,  kept  the  less  voluminous  files  in  which  not  all 
the  shipping  correspondence  was  collected.  So  we  have  the  copies 
of  our  correspondence  in  many  cases  where  we  do  not  have  the  incom- 
ing correspondence  which  was  a  part  of  the  shipping  files. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  produce  at  this  time  the  letter  confirming 
your  first  communication  from  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission 
relating  to  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes  [producing  copy  of  letter]. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  think  it  would  save  time  if  I  read  this  in  evidence. 

Mr.  Walter.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  clarify  something  in  my  mind 
at  this  point  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  Yes. 


1006  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Walter.  As  I  understand,  in  order  to  avoid  an  accumulation 
of  useless  papers,  it  is  the  practice  of  your  company  to  destroy  corre- 
spondence after  keeping  it  for  a  certain  period  of  time  'i 

Mr.  RosENEERG.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Why  did  you  destroy  the  inquiry  to  you  and  retain 
your  reply  to  the  person  who  sent  the  inquiry  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  received,  of  course,  incoming  correspondence 
in  one  copy,  while  we  make  two  copies  of  our  outgoing  correspondence. 
One  copy  goes  in  the  so-called  shipping  file,  which  naturally  is  being 
destroyed  periodically,  while  the  other  copy  of  our  outgoing  corre- 
spondence is  kept  in  the  general  file. 

Mr.  Walter.  Why  would  you  keep  a  copy  of  your  letter  when  it 
doesn't  relate  to  anything  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Wolkiser.  May  I  please 

Mr.  Walter.  No.    I  am  asking  him. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  The  files  which  pertain  to  the  actual  shipments 
have  quite  a  volume  and  our  ojSice  is  comparatively  small.  We  keep, 
of  course,  all  the  incoming  and  outgoing  invoices. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  desire  to  read  tliis  copy  into  the  record,  Mr. 
Tavenner  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection  you  may  do  so. 

Mr.  Tavenner  (reading)  : 

Februaky  2,  1943. 

The  Government  Purchasing  Commission  op  the  Soviet  Union  in  the  U.  S.  A., 
1610  Park  Road  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C. 
(Attention  Mr.  N.  S.  Fomichev.) 

Gentlemen  :  We  acknowledge  to  have  received  yesterday  your  inquiry  of 
January  28  concerning  uranium  metal,  urano-uranic  oxide,  and  nitrouranyl. 

We  are  preparing  an  interesting  proposition,  including  uranium  metal,  for 
you  and  shall  communicate  with  you  within  the  next  few  days. 

The  majority  of  the  inquired  items  could  be  shipped  promptly. 

Should  you  have  to  place  your  order  before  our  offer  is  in  your  hands,  please 
give  us  a  ring,  so  that  we  can  submit  our  proposition  to  you,  if  necessary,  by 
phone,  before  you  make  your  final  decision. 
Very  truly  yours, 

By  Hermann  Rosenberg. 
Chematar,  Inc., 

Mr.  Wood.  What  is  the  date  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  February  2, 1943.  I  offer  the  letter  in  evidence  and 
ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  1." 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Rosenberg,  I  notice  there  is  a  mark  across  the  type- 
written part  of  the  signature.    Does  that  mark  have  any  significance? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No.    That  is  my  initial. 

Mr.  Case.  That  is  your  initial  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  And  you  put  that  initial  there  yourself? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  That  is  your  characteristic  manner  of  putting  your  initial 
on  a  carbon  copy? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  No  objection. 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg 
1,"  is  hereinabove  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^ 


«  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1007 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  action  did  you  take  after  receiving  the  in- 
quiry for  uranium  compounds? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  As  was  customary  during  the  "war  years,  we  in- 
quired of  War  Production  Board,  Chemical  Information  Section, 
Group  2,  in  New  York,  whetlier  there  was  any  restriction  as  to  the 
material  involved.  I  approached,  on  the  same  day  we  received  the 
inquiry,  January  29,  1943,  group  2  of  the  War  Production  Board  in 
New  York,  and  got  the  information  that  just  a  few  days  before,  as  a 
matter  of  fact  on  January  26, 1943,  an  order  was  issued  restricting  this 
particular  merchandise  to  certain  uses. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  that  order  M-285  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  M-285;  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  were  told  that  this  order  prohibited  the  use  of 
uranium  compounds  in  glass,  ceramics,  pottery,  and  so  on,  but  that  it 
did  not  say  anything  about  export  and  was  apparently  not  applicable. 
As  to  details,  we  were  referred  to  the  Miscellaneous  Minerals  Division 
of  the  War  Production  Board. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  quantity  of  material  did  the  Russian  Purchas- 
ing Commission  show  an  interest  in  obtaining? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Two  hundred  and  twenty  pounds  of  uranium  ni- 
trate; 220  pounds  of  uranium  oxide;  and  25  pounds  of  uranium 
metal. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  After  conferring  with  group  2  of  the  War  Pro- 
duction Board,  what  did  you  do? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  had  been  promised  a  copy  of  the  restriction 
order,  and  apioroached  in  the  meantime,  by  phone  and  wire,  a  number 
of  possible  suppliers  of  this  material. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  have  copies  of  your  letters  and  telegrams  to 
possible  suppliers? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir.  We  sent  one  telegram  to  the  Shattuck 
Chemical  Co.  in  Denver,  Colo.,  and  had  telephone  conversations  with 
the  rest  of  the  companies  we  knew  of  at  that  time,  because  they  were 
located  in  New  York. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  date  of  your  telegram  to  the  Shat- 
tuck Co.  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  January  29,  1948. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  You  acted  very  promptly,  because  you  acted  prior  to 
acknowledging  receipt  of  the  request? 

Mr.  Rosenberg,  Yes.  Pi'eceding  this  inquiry  we  must  have  received 
a  telephone  call  from  the  Russians,  because  in  this  telegram  to  the 
Shattuck  Chemical  Co.  we  say : 

For  Allied  Government  order  being  not  subject  WPB  Order  M-285  please 
wire  quotations     *     *     * 

Shall  I  go  one  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  don't  think  it  is  necessary.  What  is  the  date  of 
your  wire  to  the  Shattuck  Co.  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  January  29,  1943. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  think  the  telegram  should  go  in  the  record  in  its 
entirety. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  the  telegam  in  evidence  and  ask  that  it  be 
marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  2." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 


1008  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

(The  copy  of  telegram  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosen- 
berg 2,''  is  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ' 
Mr.  Tavenner.  And  I  will  read  it : 

January  29, 1943. 
S.  W.  Shattuck  Chemical  Co., 

Denver,  Colo.: 

For  Allied  Government  order  being  not  subject  WPB  order  M-285  please  wire 
quotations  including  export  packing  25  pounds  uranium  metal,  220  pounds 
uranium  oxide  U30S,  220  pounds  uranium  nitrate.  Indicate  earliest  possible 
delivery  time  and  what  quantities  available  from  stock  we  pay  against  delivery. 
Please  let  specifications  follow  by  air  mail. 

Chematar,  Inc., 
40  Exchange  Place,  Netv  York,  N.  Y. 

Mv.  Kearney.  INIay  I  ask  a  question  there? 

Mr.  Walter  (presiding  in  temporary  absence  of  ISIr.  Wood).  Yes. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Was  that  telegram  sent  after  the  receipt  of  the  in- 
quiry from  the  Russian  purchasing  agency? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes ;  the  day  following  the  date  of  the  inquiry, 

(Representative  Wood  returns.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  other  evidence  do  3'ou  have  in  the  way  of 
copies  of  telegrams  or  letters  regarding  inquiries  made  of  othen 
suppliers  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  As  I  said,  these  other  suppliers  were  located  in 
New  York  City,  so  we  merely  had  telephone  conversations  with  these 
companies,  and  made  a  record  of  the  telephone  quotations. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  say  you  made  a  record  of  the  telephone 
conversations? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Of  these  telephone  conversations,  since  we  Avere  not 
familiar  with  these  items  and  we  had  no  other  record  of  the  telephone 
quotations. 

Mr.  TA^^ENNER.  When  did  30U  prepare  this  statement  of  telephone 
messages  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  On  January  29,  1943.  Here  is  a  second  one  of 
February  1,  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  in  evidence  the  two  reports  of 
telephone  conferences,  the  first  bearing  date  January  29,  1943,  which 
1  ask  to  have  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  3,"  and  the  second  bear- 
ing date  February  1,  1943,  which  I  ask  to  have  marked  "Exhibit 
Rosenberg  4." 

Mr.  Kearney.  Mr.  Chairman,  whom  were  the  telephone  conversa- 
tions with  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  I  am  asking  coimsel  to  develop  it  a  little  further. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Exhibit  3  shows  you  made  inquiry  of  A.  MacKay  & 
Co.     Is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  the  reply  that  you  received,  according  to  this 
memorandum,  was  that  the  company  had  made  20  poiuids  which  were 
supposed  to  be  ready,  and  another  5  pounds  could  be  ready  in  a  week  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  right.     That  is  of  uranium  metal. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  of  uranium  metal  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.  These  letters  refer  to  these  products  [in- 
dicating] . 

'  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1009 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  see.     That  related  to  uranium  metal.     Then  you 
asked  questions  regarding  uranium  oxide  and  uranium  nitrate? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  right. 
Mr.  Tavenner.  And  you  were  given  prices  ? 
Mr.  Eosenberg.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  also  conferred  with  Fairmount  Chemical  Co. 
on  that  date? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  you  conferred  with  B.  F.  Drakenfeld  &  Co.  on 
that  same  date? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  conferred  with  du  Pont,  with  a  Mr.  Sellger 
of  du  Pont? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  were  advised  that  du  Pont  could  not  furnish 
you  any  material,  that  it  was  all  requisitioned  by  the  United  States 
Government  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  They  offered  the  material.  We  were  offered  220 
pounds  of  uranium  oxide  and  220  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  for 
prompt  delivery. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  conferred  also  with  Mallinkrodt? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  a  chemical  supplier  of  fine  chemicals  in  smaller 
quantities,  according  to  my  knowledge,   for  laboratory   and   other 
similar  uses. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  also  conferred  with  a  company  the  name  of 
which  I  cannot  read. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Merck  &  Co.,  M-e-r-c-k.  To  them  applies  the  same 
I  said  about  Mallinkrodt,  while  du  Pont  is  an  industrial  supplier  in 
larger  quantities. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  A.  MacKay  &  Co.  advised  that  they  could  only  fur- 
nish you  with  black  uranium  oxide? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Ta\t.nner.  Fairmount  Chemical  Co.  could  not  supply  the  ura- 
nium oxide,  and  stated  that  early  the  next  week  it  would  quote  you 
regarding  the  uranium  nitrate? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  B.  F.  Drakenfeld  &  Co.  advised  that  uranium  oxide 
was  all  they  could  offer,  and  it  was  yellow  UsOs  ? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  right. 
Mr.  Walter.  Wliat  are  the  dates,  Mr.  Tavenner  ? 
Mr.  Tavenner.  January  29. 
Mr.  Walter.  What  year  ? 
Mv.  Tavenner.  1943. 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tave-nner.  Here  is  a  notation  in  regard  to  your  conference 
with  B.  F.  Drakenfeld  &  Co. : 

Althoiigh  he  was  willing  to  quote  after  I  gave  him  the  message  from  WPB,  his 
principals  did  not  permit  him  to  quote  for.  export,  but  he  said  we  sliould  commu- 
nicate with  the  following  importers:  African  Metal  Co.,  41  Broad  Street,  New 
York,  N.  Y. ;  Raymond  Luber,  Bridgeport,  Conn. 

Did  you  communicate  with  African  Metal  Co.? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  According  to  the  memorandum  of  February  1, 
1943, 1  did;  yes. 

993.34 — 50 8 


2010  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Du  Pont,  as  stated,  made  you  a  quotation  for  the 
220  pounds  of  uranium  oxide  and  220  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  other  organizations  referred  to  there  were 
unable  to  quote  ? 

;Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct.  ; 

Mr.  Wood.  Does  the  memorandum  show  the  names  of  the  individ- 
uals in  these  organizations  with  whom  he  had  these  conversations? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  does.  In  one  instance  it  does  not  give  the  name 
of  the  person  speaking,  and  that  was  the  first  instance  of  A.  MacKay 
&  Co. 

Mr.  Walter.  How  many  companies  indicated  their  ability  to  quote 
on  uranium? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Do  you  mean  on  uranium  metal  or  uranium 
compounds  ? 

Mr.  Walter.  Both. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  May  I  read 

Mr.  Walter.  Just  the  number. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Uranium  metal,  two ;  uranium  oxide,  two ;  uranium 
nitrate,  two;  and  a  third  one  promises  to  quote  early  the  next  week. 
May  I  mention  this  is  only  part  of  our  investigation  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  is  the  name  of  the  person  with  whom  you  talked 
when  you  conferred  with  the  first  organization  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  A.  MacKay  &  Co.  ? 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  It  is  7  years  back,  but  I  remember  one  name  of  a 
gentleman  who  I  ever  talked  to  with  this  company,  Mr.  King,  and  I 
suppose  Mr.  King  was  also  in  this  particular  instance  the  one  I 
talked  to. 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Chairman,  before  that  is  entered  I  would  like  to  see  it. 

Mr.  Ta-st.nner.  With  regard  to  exhibit  4,  which  is  a  record  of  tele- 
phone calls  for  February  1,  1943,  it  shows  that  du  Pont,  giving  in 
parentheses  the  name  of  the  person  with  whom  you  spoke,  made  a 
quotation  to  you  on  sodium  uranate,  showing  the  complete  analysis. 
That  was  not  part  of  this  inquiry  from  the  Russians,  was  it? 

(Witness  makes  oif-the-record  statement  to  Mr.  Tavenner.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Let's  get  it  on  the  record.  You  have  stated  to  me 
there  was  a  mix-up  about  the  material  quoted  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Material  inquired  about.  This  being  the  first  time 
we  were  in  contact  with  this  material,  we  were  confused  as  to  the 
product  the  Russians  actually  wanted.  These  reports  bear  out  this 
confusion.  We  had  talked  the  previous  day  with  companies  familiar 
with  this  material,  so  I  followed  on  February  1  with  conversations 
with  du  Pont  and  African  Metals  to  find  out  what  type  of  uranium 
oxide  the  required  product  actually  is,  and  I  found  out  there  was  the 
yellow  grade  and  the  black  grade,  and  from  the  communications  that 
followed  subsequently  with  Shattuck  Co.  I  remember  now  that  at 
that  time  I  was  informed  there  was  a  green  grade,  which  was  the 
one  we  actually  purchased  and  delivered  from  Shattuck  Co.  to  the 
Russians,  and  which,  I  have  been  told,  was  the  purest  grade  avail- 
able, purer  than  the  yellow  and  black  grades.  And  so  on  February  1 
we  got  information  from  du  Pont,  Mr.  Sellger;  and  from  African 
Metals  Corp.,  Mr.  Deschepper,  about  these  unclear  questions. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1011 

Mr.  Ta^^nner.  At  the  bottom  of  this  report  I  find  this  notation : 

The  packing  of  the  material  would  not  cause  them  any  difficulties,  since  they 
would  have  to  pack  the  merchandise  in  their  original  packing  as  it  is,  merely  in 
an  outside  case. 

What  were  you  referring  to  there?     Packing  for  export? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  for  export.  I  told  them  this  material  was  for 
an  allied  country,  and  they  said  it  was  no  trouble  to  pack  for  export. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  notify  them  of  the  country  to  which  the 
material  was  to  be  shipped  ? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  No,  because  as  brokers  we  are  not  much  interested 
in  bringing  our  suppliers  and  our  customers  together. 

Mr.  Case.  Page  2  of  exhibit  3  is  headed:  "Telephone  reports  re- 
garding uranium.  January  20,  1943."  The  first  item  starts  with: 
''WPB  (Murrayhill  3-2520  group  2)."  Does  WPB  there  stand  for 
War  Production  Board? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  The  note  which  follows  in  this  typewritten  carbon  copy 
reads : 

There  is  an  order  of  January  26  M-285  merely  prohibiting  the  use  of  uranium 
chemicals  in  the  domestic  glass,  ceramic,  and  pottery  industries  and  says  noth- 
ing regarding  export.  Besides,  no  effective  date  is  given  yet.  If  it  is  for  war 
use  by  the  Russians,  this  order  definitely  does  not  apply.  He  sends  us  two 
copies.  For  details  we  might  communicate  with  their  Washington  Miscellaneous 
Minerals  Division. 

Does  that  represent  a  summary  of  the  statements  by  the  representa- 
tive of  the  War  Production  Board  with  whom  you  talked  at  this  tele- 
phone number  ? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  Ycs.  . 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  recall  his  specifically  saying  that  "If  it  is  for  war 
use  by  the  Eussians,  this  order  definitely  does  not  apply"  ? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  I  do  not  recollect  the  exact  words  he  used  7  years 
ago,  but  I  dictated  this  5  minutes  after  the  conversation,  and  at  that 
time  I  am  sure  that  I  got  the  right  gist  of  the  conversation.  I  have  a 
copy  of  that  order  right  here. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  recall  with  whom  you  talked  at  the  War  Produc- 
tion Board? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  There  is  an  information  board,  group  2,  with  which 
we  always  conferred  when  materials  unknown  to  us  were  inquired  from 
us  during  wartime,  and  only  on  the  strength  of  this  telephonic  infor- 
mation did  we  approach  these  suppliers. 

Mr.  Walter.  So  that  your  contacts  with  the  War  Production  Board 
were  not  with  any  particular  person.  You  merely  called  the  general 
information  board  ? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  At  that  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  discovered  later  that  it  was  necessary  to  obtain 
an  export  license  in  order  to  ship  it  abroad  ? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  It  was  our  general  knowledge  at  that  time  that  every 
product  going  out  of  this  country  required  an  export  license  to  be 
procured  by  the  actual  exporter. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Didn't  you  consult  Mr.  Alexander  Pregel  and  Mr. 
Boris  Pregel  at  that  time  regarding  prices  for  delivery  of  uranium 
oxide  ? 

Mr.  Eosenberg.  At  some  later  date  we  did  that. 


1012  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavexxer.  How  much  later,  and  do  you  have  the  record  of  that 
telephone  call? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  do  not  have  a  record  of  that  telephone  call,  but  I 
have  a  record  of  the  conversation  with  these  gentlemen  at  the  time 
of  the  purchase  from  the  Canadian  company. 

Mr.  TA^'ENNER.  I  am  talking  about  the  time  you  put  through  your 
first  successful  effort  to  sell  uranium.  Didn't  you  inquire  at  the  time 
you  made  these  inquiries,  or  shortly  thereafter,  the  price  at  which 
r*regel  could  furnish  the  same  material  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  suppose  so,  and  I  have  possibly  also  a  note  about 
this  conversation.  However,  since  we  make  notes  of  conversations  in 
cases  where  we  have  new  and  otherwise  not  confirmed  information, 
there  was  no  necessity  at  that  particular  time  to  make  a  memorandum 
about  any  other  conversations. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Before  we  get  to  that,  let  us  find  out  a  little  more 
about  the  initial  contact  you  niade  with  Mr.  Pregel  about  it.  When  did 
you  talk  to  him  about  the  delivery  of  this  first  order  of  uranium? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  have  seen  INIr.  Pregel,  according  to  my  best  recol- 
lection, only  once  in  my  life,  and  that  was  during  the  second  part  of 
April  1943.     I  have  had  several  telephone  conversations  with  him. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Answer  specifically  my  question.  At  the  time  or 
about  the  time  that  you  made  inquiries  from  these  various  suppliers,  a 
record  of  which  you  have,  did  you  not  also  make  the  same  type  of  in- 
quiry from  Mr.  Pregel  and,  if  so,  when? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  suppose  so.  I  cannot  tell  you  from  my  notes 
when  that  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  it  is  your  positive  recollection  that  you  did 
ask  him  to  quote  you  the  price  for  delivery  of  220  pounds  of  uranium 
oxide  and  220  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir;  to  my  best  knowledge  and  belief  I  con- 
tacted him  at  that  time  also. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Why  didn't  you  make  a  memorandum  of  that  tele- 
phone conversation  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Mr.  Tavenner,  I  did  not  say  I  have  not  made  it. 
I  do  not  have  it.  I  did  not  even  look  for  it  at  this  time.  There  is  a 
possibility  if  I  go  through  our  old  records  of  19-13  I  might  be  able 
to  find  a  memorandum  about  this  conversation. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  You  think  you  have  a  memorandum  about  it? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  think  so.     There  is  a  good  possibility. 

]Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  you  Iniew  before  you  came  here  that  the  name 
of  Mr.  Pregel  was  going  to  be  involved,  was  bound  to  be,  in  connection 
with  these  transactions,  because  you  later  represented  him,  and  I  would 
have  thought  you  would  be  particularly  careful  to  bring  memoranda 
pertaining  to  him  rather  than  concerns  we  have  heard  of  for  the 
first  time. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  did  not  know  until  I  left  New  York  Saturday  that 
Mr.  Pregel  would  be  a  special  subject  of  this  hearing. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  you  to  furnish  us  a  memorandum  of 
that  telephone  convereation  if  you  can  locate  it. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  certainly  will  if  I  can  locate  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliat  was  the  result  o'f  your  telephone  conversation 
with  Mr.  Pregel,  and  I  should  ask  you  which  Mr.  Pregel  you  spoke  to  ? 

Mr.  Resenberg.  I  spoke  to  a  Mr.  Alexander  Pregel ;  and  I  can  say 
that  until  I  heard  it  during  this  hearing  and  understood  from  news- 


SHIPMENT   OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1013 

paper  reports,  I  did  not  know  there  was  a  Mr.  Boris  Pregel,  to  whom 
I  have  never  talked,  to  my  knowledge.  I  remember  once  when  I  called 
Mr.  Alexander  Pregel  was  out  of  town  and  I  talked  to  another  Mr. 
Pregel  who  might  have  been  his  brother. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  will  ask  you  questions  about  that  later  on.  What 
were  you  advised  about  the  availability  of  this  material  by  Mr.  Alex- 
ander Pregel  when  you  called  him  about  the  time  you  called  these 
other  supplier  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  can  answer  that  question  if  I  find  a  memorandum 
about  this  conversation. 

Mr.  Ta\'t:nner.  Did  he  make  a  quotation  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  According  to  my  recollection  he  did. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  How  did  that  quotation  compare  with  other  prices? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  It  must  have  been  more  expensive,  if  I  received  it, 
because  we  did  not  consider  it  until  we  could  not  get  this  merchandise 
from  Shattuck  Co.  any  more. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  you  satisfied  now  from  your  recollection  that 
Mr.  Pregel  repoited  he  had  the  stocks  on  hand  that  you  desired  and 
could  make  delivery  of  it? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  According  to  my  best  knowledge  and  belief  he 
quoted  at  that  time,  but  at  too  high  a  price. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Can  you  fix  the  month  you  had  that  conversation 
with  him? 

]\lr.  Rosenberg.  About  that  same  time,  early  February  1943. 

(Witness  confers  with  his  counsel.) 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  It  was  definitely  not  on  the  same  date  I  made  these 
telephone  reports,  because  all  the  calls  made  on  that  date  appear  on 
this  piece  of  paper. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  As  a  result  of  these  calls  that  you  placed,  you  finally 
made  a  deal  with  Shattuck? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  I  now  offer  exhibit  Rosenberg  3  and  exhibit  Rosen- 
berg 4  in  evidence. 

Mr.  Wood.  They  will  be  admitted. 

(The  documents  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  3" 
and  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  4,"  are  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the 
record.)  ^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  T  would  like  for  you  to  tell  the  committee  at  this 
time  what  your  procedure  was,  and  what  your  procedure  became,  in 
the  handling  of  these  uranium  transactions :  That  is,  how  you  made 
your  contracts,  how  they  were  handled  before  the  licensing  agency, 
and  the  general  plan  under  which  these  licenses  were  obtained  and 
the  contracts  consummated. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  would  like  to  say  at  the  outset  that  the  export- 
license  part  was  not  our  business,  since  we  were  not  the  exporters  of 
this  material ;  but  I  can  give  information  which  I  got  in  the  course 
of  this  transaction  about  these  export-license  applications  by  the 
Soviet  Purchasing  Commission. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  going  to  change  my  question.  I  believe  it  is 
going  to  take  too  long  to  answer.     Tell  us  just  what  you  did  in  this 

*  See  appendix. 


1014  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

transaction  with  Sliattuck  after  you  received  their  offer,  or  their 
commitment  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg,  We  received  their  quotation  the  same  day  we  had 
inquired.  We  received  this  bj^  wire.  We  passed  this  on  to  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  have  any  record  of  your  letter  or  telegram 
passing  that  information  on? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  May  I  use  notes  which  I  made  about  these  details? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  will  be  satisfactory.  That  seems  to  be  a  pre- 
pared memorandum  you  have  there? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes ;  from  the  files,  which  I  could  locate,  plus  the 
deductions  which  you  could  make  from  these  files,  as,  for  instance, 
from  that  letter  of  February  2, 1  deduced  we  had  received  an  inquiry 
on  February  1. 

Mr.  Case.  You  have  already  submitted,  and  there  have  been  placed 
in  evidence,  copies  of  notes  made,  you  stated,  at  the  time  the  telephone 
conversations  were  had  with  these  possible  suppliers  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  In  the  letter  of  February  2,  1943,  already  placed  in  evi- 
dence, you  invite  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  to  communicate 
with  you  by  telephone  should  they  have  to  place  their  order  before 
your  offer  is  in  their  hands. 

]\Ir.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  they  communicate  with  you  by  telephone  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  They  had  no  reason  to,  because  on  February  4  we 
sent  them  our  quotation. 

Mr.  Case.  How  did  you  find  out  the  quantities  they  wanted  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  They  gave  us  the  quantities,  apparently,  by  phone, 
and  confirmed  it  by  that  letter  which  we  received  on  February  1, 

Mr.  Case.  They  gave  you  the  quantities  by  telephone  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  make  notes  of  that  telephone  conversation,  sim- 
ilar to  these  other  notes  that  we  have  ? 

]\Ir.  Rosenberg.  There  is  a  possibility  that  we  did,  but  I  do  not 
have  it. 

Mr.  Case.  You  do  not  have  that  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  particular  telephone  conversation,  I  do  not 
have  a  note  about  that  here. 

Mr.  Case.  You  stated  it  was  not  always  your  custom  to  keep  the 
letters  that  came  in,  but  it  was  your  practice  to  prepare  these  tele- 
phone reports  5  minutes  after  the  conversation? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Not  always;  when  we  were  dealing  with  material 
that  was  new  to  us. 

Mr.  Case.  Didn't  you  make  a  note  of  the  quantities  they  wanted? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  There  is  a  possibility  I  did.  I  do  not  have  all  my 
notes  with  me. 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Chairman,  this  letter  which  is  in  evidence  invites  the 
Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  to  communicate  by  telephone,  and 
since  we  have  in  evidence  full  notes  in  regard  to  other  telephone  con- 
versations, I  would  like  to  ask  that  the  witness  examine  all  the  papers 
he  has  with  him  before  he  leaves  under  this  subpena,  to  determine  if  he 
has  any  notes  of  conversations  with  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commis- 
sion, and  also  whether  he  has  notes  elsewhere  supplying  this 
information. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1015' 

Mr.  Wood.  If  you  have  such  notes,  where  would  they  be  now  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  In  New  York. 

Mr.  Case.  Why  weren't  they  brought  here  under  this  subpena  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  You  were  served  with  a  subpena  to  j)roduce  all  the  rec- 
ords you  had  in  this  case,  were  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No  ;  I  was  not.  I  brought  this  correspondence  along 
in  order  to  support  as  much  as  I  possibly  could. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  understood,  did  you  not,  that  I  requested  your 
counsel  to  produce  all  the  records  bearing  on  the  transactions  relating 
to  uranium,  whether  the  inquiries  resulted  in  failure  to  produce  any 
uranium  or  whether  they  didn't? 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  May  1  answer  that  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

I\Ir.  WoLKiSER.  In  our  telephone  conversation  during  the  week,  after 
I  tried  to  contact  you  many  times,  you  told  me  the  subject  matters  in 
which  the  committee  woiild  be  interested,  just  generally,  but  any 
papers  and  documents  you  mentioned  only  Saturday  afternoon  when 
I  was  here,  and  by  that  time  my  client  was  on  his  way  from  New  York. 
But  he  has  an  awful  lot  of  papers  here,  and  if  you  take  his  recollection 
plus  the  papers,  I  believe  that  will  satisfy  the  committee  right  now, 
but  if  not,  we  can  still  produce  any  papers  you  want. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Don't  you  recall,  when  the  appointment  was  made 
for  Saturday  over  the  telephone  some  earlier  day  in  the  week,  that  I 
specified  exactly  the  matters  we  were  investigating? 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  You  did  say  the  subject  matters,  but  you  did  not  at 
that  time  mention  any  records.    There  was  no  subpena. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  right ;  there  was  no  subpena. 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  The  telephone  calls  are  all  over  the  place.  This  is  a 
7-year-old  case. 

IMr.  Wood.  Let's  get  along  with  the  testimony. 

Mr.  Ta\t.nner.  Proceed.  You  were  telling  us  you  had  a  telephone 
conversation  on  February  4. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No.    We  wrote  a  letter  on  February  4. 

Mr.  Ta\t.nner.  Do  you  have  that  letter  witli  you  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  am  sorry ;  I  do  not.  But  that  letter  I  have,  and 
I  can  submit  it.  because  from  that  letter  I  quote  here,  so  I  must  have  it. 

Mr.  Wood.  Will  you  submit  it  when  you  return  to  your  office  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.  On  February  4  we  wrote  the  Russian  Pur- 
chasing Commission  that  one  of  the  oldest  United  States  producers, 
Shattuck,  informs  us  that  black  material  only  contains  UsOg.  The 
pure  material  is  green,  which  we  offer,  99.5  percent  uranium,  at  $4.50, 
only  impurities  being  traces  of  iron  and  what  dust  might  possibly  get 
in  during  handling.  Both  products  now  offered  practically  chem- 
ically pure.  Confirming  agreement  to  communicate  with  each  other 
as  soon  as  either  advised  by  WPB  in  consequence  of  our  request  for 
authorization. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  what  followed  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  had  called  on  February  3,  preceding  this  letter, 
a  Mr.  Owen,  of  WPB,  Miscellaneous  Minerals  Division,  who  confirmed 
the  information  we  received  from  group  2  in  New  York,  and  informed 
us  further  there  is  no  application  or  authorization  form  under  M-285. 

On  February  6  we  wrote  to  the  Shattuck  Co.  confirming  substitution 
of  green  uranium  oxide,  confirming  their  chemical  information  in  that 
respect,  and  promised  to  work  on  these  orders. 


1016  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Nothing  happened  until  March  2,  when  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Com- 
mission was  ready  to  buy,  and  we  wired  to  Shattuck  to  prepare  an  order 
for  200  pounds  of  UaOg  and  220  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate.  On 
March  3  Shattuck  wired  their  agreement. 

On  March  2  we  called  the  War  Production  Board,  Miscellaneous 
Minerals  Division,  in  regard  to  M-285.  We  spoke  to  a  Mr.  Park, 
assistant  to  K.  J.  Land,  in  charge  of  uranium,  who  advised  they  felt 
the  Eussian  requirement  was  not  affected  by  M-285,  prohibiting  only 
the  use  of  uranium  compounds  in  ceramics,  and  so  forth,  but  sug- 
gested  

Mr.  Kearney.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  ask  a  question  here? 

Mr.  Wood.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  I^ARNEY.  I  would  like  to  ask  the  witness  when  that  memoran- 
dum was  prepared? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Last  week. 

Mr.  IvEARNEY.  Then  it  is  not  a  record  of  any  telephone  conversations 
made  at  the  time  of  the  telephone  conversations? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No.  It  was  prepared  for  this  particular  purpose 
after  I  had  been  informed  through  our  counsel  what  was  the  subject 
matter  of  this  hearing. 

Mr.  Kearney.  And  the  information  contained  in  that  memorandum 
comes  from  your  own  records  or  from  memory  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  It  is  based  on  our  own  records,  which,  however, 
are  not  complete,  and  in  certain  cases,  as  I  mentioned  an  example  be- 
fore, it  is  deductions  based  on  correspondence  we  have. 

Mr.  Kearney.  And  also  from  your  best  recollection? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Ta\':enner.  I  wish  you  would  support  each  statement  you  make 
by  a  copy  of  a  memorandum  of  telephone  message,  if  you  have  one,  or 
by  copy  of  letter  to  which  you  refer. 

(Witness  confers  with  his  counsel.) 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  If  you  want  me  to  complete  this  file,  I  can  do  it 
very  quickly  by  going  to  New  York  and  completing  it.  I  think  it  is 
hard  on  my  office  to  find  these  old  papers  without  my  presence,  but 
perhaps  it  can  be  done,  but  it  would  be  better  if  I  went  and  directed 
it.  I  am  sure  the  information  I  am  giving  here  can  be  supported  to 
a  very  great  extent. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  understood  you  had  your  full  file  records  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  you  do  not,  just  use  the  records  you  do  have  and 
support  each  statement  by  the  records  you  have  here. 

(Witness  confers  with  his  counsel.) 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  have  a  rather  complete  file  here,  but  I  did  not 
take  all  telephone  notes  along. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Use  what  records  you  have  and  we  will  go  into  the 
other  records  later. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  On  February  5  we  wrote  to  the  Shattuck  Co. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  the  letter  of  February  5,  1943, 
addressed  to  the  S.  W.  Shattuck  Chemical  Co.,  Denver,  Colo,,  ancl 
signed  by  Chematar,  Inc.,  by  Hermann  Rosenberg,  and  ask  that  it  be 
marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  5." 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  it  will  be  admitted. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1017 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosen- 
berg 5."  is  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  On  March  2  we  sent  the  following  telegram  to  the 
Shattuck  Co. : 

For  in-eparing  order  200  ponnds  Uthreeoeijilit  [U  SOS],  220  pounds  nitrouranyl, 
please  wire  confirmation  that  offor  including  delivery  times  still  good  as  wired 
January  twenty-ninth.  Merchandise  needed  for  military  purposes  of  Allied 
Government. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  that  telegram  in  evidence  and  ask  that  it  be 
marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  6." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  copy  of  telegram  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosen- 
berg 6,"  is  hereinabove  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^" 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  On  March  3  we  received  a  telegram  from  the  Shat- 
tuck Co.  This  is  an  original.  It  comes  out  of  the  general  file.  In 
the  shipping  file  we  have  a  copy. 

Mr.  Wood.  This  is  one  of  your  original  incoming  communications 
of  March  3  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir.  All  the  telegrams  and  cables  in  our  office 
are  copied  because  we  have  different  departments  and  all  get  a  copy. 
Telegrams,  I  will  always  have  the  originals,  if  I  could  locate  them. 

Mr.  Wood.  You  mean  you  differentiate  between  telegrams  and  let- 
ters you  receive  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes ;  because  we  cannot  possibly  copy  every  incom- 
ing letter. 

Mr.  Wood.  Did  you  copy  this  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Why  didn't  you  destroy  the  original  telegram  and 
keep  only  the  copy  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Because  we  keep  the  original  telegrams,  of  which 
we  have  sent  copies  to  our  so-called  shipping  files,  in  the  general  file, 
while  the  incoming  letters,  being  put  in  the  shipping  file,  there  is  only 
one  original  in  our  possession. 

Mr.  Case.  What  happened  to  the  shipping  file  which  contained  the 
originals  of  letters? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  All  our  shipping  files  up  to  the  year  1943  have  been 
disposed  of,  I  would  say,  about  a  year  or  two  ago. 

(Witness  confers  with  his  counsel.) 

Mr.  Rosenberg  (continuing).  Except  if  we  have  correspondence  of 
later  years  in  the  same  file,  then  we  kept  them. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  ask  a  question  before  we  ad- 
journ for  lunch? 

Mr.  Wood.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kearney.  May  I  see  that  letter  of  February  2  ? 
("Exhibit  Rosenberg  1"  was  handed  to  Mr.  Kearney.) 

Mr.  Kearney.  I  call  the  witness'  attention  to  the  letter  dated  Febru- 
ary 2,  1943,  addressed  to  the  Government  Purchasing  Commission  of 

"  See  appendix. 
^°  See  appendix. 


1018  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

the  Soviet  Union  in  the  U.  S.  A.    The  last  paragraph  reads  as  follows : 

Should  you  have  to  place  your  order  before  our  offer  is  in  your  hands,  please 
give  us  a  ring,  so  that  we  can  submit  our  proposition  to  you,  if  necessary,  by 
phone,  before  you  make  your  final  decision. 

Do  you  have  a  record  of  that  telephone  conversation  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  had  no  telephone  conversation,  according  to  my 
recollection  and  according  to  my  files,  since  2  days  later  we  were  able 
to  submit  the  quotation. 

Mr.  Kearney.  You  had  no  communication,  by  phone,  wire,  or  letter, 
from  the  time  of  this  communication  of  February  2  until  Feljruary  4  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  So  far  as  correspondence  is  concerned,  I  am  able 
to  develop  that  if  I  can  get  the  complete  file,  which  I  can  do  in  48 
hours. 

Mr.  Kearney.  This  file  is  in  your  office  in  New  York  City? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  am  sure  that  copies  of  our  correspondence  can  be 
developed.  There  might  be  exceptions,  but  I  don't  think  so.  If  I  had 
known  that  I  should  bring  along  the  complete  file,  I  could  have  done  so. 
It  would  be  quite  a  voluminous  file,  and  I  came  here  in  connection 
with  our  twentieth  anniversary,  which  we  had  yesterday,  and  I  didn't 
want  to  bring  too  much  stuff  with  me. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  the  original  telegram  produced 
by  the  witness,  dated  March  3,  1943,  addressed  to  Chematar,  Inc.,  and 
signed  S.  W.  Shattuck  Chemical  Co.,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Ex- 
hibit Rosenberg  7." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  telegram  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  7," 
is  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  will  read  that  telegram : 

Retel  IT308  and  uranyl  nitrate,  can  make  deliveries  as  mentioned  our  wire 
January  29. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  stands  recessed  until  3  o'clock  this  after- 
noon. 

(Thereupon,  at  1 :  30  p.  m.,  a  recess  was  taken  until  3  p.  m.  of  the 
same  day.) 

afternoon  session 

(The  hearing  was  resumed  at  3 :  10  p.  m.) 
Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  be  in  order. 

Let  the  record  show  that  there  are  present  Mr.  Walter,  Mr.  Harrison, 
Mr.  Moulder,  Mr.  Velde,  Mr.  Kearney,  and  Mr.  Wood,  a  quorum. 
Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Rosenberg,  will  you  come  forward,  please. 

TESTIMONY  OF  HERMANN  H.  ROSENBERG— Resumed 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Rosenberg,  before  we  proceed  further,  may  I  sug- 
gest that  we  will  save  a  good  deal  of  time  if  you  will  address  your 
answers  to  the  question  asked  you,  unless  you  think  there  is  a  pertinent 
explanation  you  may  care  to  make. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Rosenberg,  I  ask  if  you  will  turn  over  the 
records  which  you  have  and  to  which  you  have  referred  to  an  investi- 

"  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1019 

gator  on  the  staff  of  this  committee  to  review  them,  and  later  we  will 
determine  whether  or  not  it  is  necessary  to  bring  yon  back  here  and 
ask  you  further  questions  relating  to  those  documents? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavexner.  I  want  you  to  explain  to  the  committee  very  briefly 
just  what  your  procedure  was  in  handling  one  of  these  requests  from 
the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  for  the  acquisition  of  uranium 
material. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  have  told  us  what  you  did  in  the  particular 
€ase  with  Shattuck.  After  getting  in  touch  with  Shattuck,  for  in- 
stance, and  finding  that  the  material  was  available,  your  next  step, 
as  I  understood,  was  to  advise  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission 
that  the  materials  had  been  found  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  will  you  tell  us  what  your  next  step  was  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  approached  by  telephone  the  War  Production 
Board.  Miscellaneous  Minerals  Division,  in  Washington,  to  make  sure 
again,  after  a  month  had  passed  since  we  got  that  information  about 
M-285,  whether  the  regulations  were  still  the  same,  and  we  were  told 
that  this  order  did  not  apply  to  an  export  delivery  to  the  Soviet  Pur- 
chasing Commission,  but  we  may  inquire  further  from  the  United 
States  Engineers  in  New  York.  I  phoned  that  office,  the  number  of 
which  I  got  from  the  person  I  spoke  to  in  the  War  Production  Board 
at  Washington,  and  I  spoke  to  Colonel  Crenshaw,  who  told  me  that  a 
Lieutenant  Burman  had  just  been  transferred  to  them  from  WPB, 
that  uranium  was  not  their  business,  but  this  man  would  know  better 
than  Colonel  Crenshaw  knew.  However,  in  Lieutenant  Burman's 
absence  he  would  suggest  we  go  back  to  WPB,  Washington,  and  talk 
to  Mr.  Land's  office,  and  if  we  got  satisfaction  there  we  should  proceed 
according  to  the  advice  we  received  there. 

That  is  what  I  did.  I  called  that  office  again  and  was  told  by  Mr. 
Park — I  never  had  occasion  to  talk  to  Mr.  Land,  but  I  understand 
Mr.  Park  was  Mr.  Land's  assistant — that  he  had  spoken  to  General 
Wesson,  and  that  we  should  take  up  the  matter  with  their  Lend-Lease 
Department,  Mr.  Moore. 

That  is  what  I  did.  Mr.  Moore  told  me  that  he  had  already  been 
approached  by  Mr.  Fomichev  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission 
sometime  back  concerning  a  uranium  requirement;  that  he  happened 
to  know  Mr.  Fomichev ;  and  he  would  get  in  touch  with  him  and  let 
me  know.     That  was  on  or  about  March  3. 

On  March  6  I  phoned  Mr.  Moore  again  and  I  got  the  permission 
which  I  thought  we  had  to  get  for  this  delivery,  by  phone,  and  subse- 
quently by  letter.  I  advised  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  in 
w^riting  about  the  fact  that  we  had  been  informed  by  Mr.  Moore  of  the 
Lend-Lease  Department  that  we  did  not  need  any  further  clearance  for 
this  transaction,  but  that  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  would 
have  to  apply  for  an  export  license,  which  I  advised  them  to  do. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  say  you  advised  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission  they  should  apply  for  an  export  license  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  we  had  been  advised  by  Mr.  Moore  in  writing 
that  no  further  clearance  was  required  for  this  transaction  except  for 
the  export  license,  which  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  had  to 
get,  and  that  they  were  familiar  with  the  procedure.     That  was  part 


1020  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

of  that  letter.  That  information  I  passed  on  to  the  Russians,  inform- 
ing them  that  we  woukl  not  accept  the  order  unless  and  until  they  had 
received  the  export  license. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  j^ou  receive  the  export  license  for  this  first 
shipment? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  We  never  received  any  export  license  for  any  deliv- 
ery to  any  Allied  mission,  because  it  was  the  Allied  mission's  business 
to  attend  to  this  part  of  the  procedure,  they  being  the  actual  exporters. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  you  would  not  undertake  to  close  a  transaction 
with  the  supplier  until  you  were  sure  the  export  license  had  been 
issued ;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Excuse  me. 

(Witness  confers  with  his  counsel.) 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  This  was  ^the  procedure  in  this  particular  case : 
We  had  been  notified  that  this  product  was  subject  to  a  War  Produc- 
tion Boaj-d  order,  and  we  wanted  to  proceed  with  particular  care  and 
make  sure  that  they  received  the  export  license  before  we  accepted  the 
order,  because  this  particular  product  was  covered  by  a  WPB  order, 
regardless  of  whether  it  was  covered  for  this  particular  purpose  by  the 
order  or  not. 

Mr.  Tam5Nner.  Do  you  know  whether  such  a  license  was  issued? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.  We  have  been  told  that  by  Mr.  Moore  and 
by  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission,  who  gave  us  a  number  and 
the  issuance  date. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  that  export  license  accompany  the  bill  of  lading 
on  the  shipment  of  the  materials  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  disposition  was  made  of  the  export  license 
after  it  was  issued  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Did  it  at  any  time  come  into  your  hands  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  you  advised  by  the  Russians  what  the  pro- 
cedure was  as  to  the  handling  of  the  license  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No;  we  got  shipping  instructions  from  them  and 
it  was  a  domestic  destination. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  That  is  all  I  am  going  to  ask  you  about  the  Shat- 
tuck  shipment.  Did  you  receive  another  request  for  uranium  after 
the  first  one  for  220  pounds  each  of  uranium  oxide  and  uranium 
nitrate  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  you  receive  that? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  On  or  about  March  19,  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  then  follow  the  same  procedure  with 
Shattuck  that  you  followed  in  the  first  case  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  sent  them  a  telegram.  We  got  an  answer  we 
should  wait  a  few  days.  On  March  24  we  got  an  offer  from  them 
saying  they  could  not  offer  what  was  required,  because  this  Russian 
inquiry  said  that  they  would  preferably  receive  uranium  oxychloride, 
tri-,  tetra-,  or  pentchloride,  and  Shattuck  wired  us  they  could  merely 
offer  500  pounds  each  of  the  products  which  they  had  shipped  before. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  that  satisfactory  to  the  Russian  Purchasing 
Commission,  and  did  you  attempt  to  close  the  transaction  with  Shat- 
tuck? 


SHIPMENT   OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1021 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  took  the  same  stand — that  we  would  not  do 
anythinof  until  they  had  received  the  export  license. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  agree  to 
purchase  the  500  pounds  each  from  Shattuck  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes;  subject  to  receipt  of  export  license. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  know  whether  that  export  license  was 
denied  at  any  time ;  say,  the  14th  of  April  194.3  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  know  that  around  April  7  we  were  told  by  the 
Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  that  the  export  license  would  be 
granted  by  BEW  and  they  would  have  it  within  a  week. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  AVlio  in  BEW  made  that  representation? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  had  this  information  from  the  Russians,  be- 
cause we  had  no  contacts  with  BEW  in  this  business. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Proceed,  then,  to  tell  us  whether  you  later  learned 
that  the  license  had  been  denied. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  May  I  refer  to  my  notes  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  He  didn't  ask  for  any  dates.  Did  you  later  learn  the 
export  license  w^as  denied? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  Russians  never  told  you  they  were  having 
trouble  getting  the  license  issued? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  think  they  did,  around  the  time  you  mentioned; 
yes.     May  I  read  a  note  ? 

Mr.  TA^TNNER.  If  it  is  pertinent  to  this  question. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  All  right. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Wlien,  on  April  22,  we  received  a  telegram  from 
the  Shattuck  Co.  that  they  withdrew  their  offer,  I  phoned  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission  and  told  them  that.  I  will  read  this  note, 
now,  which  refers  to  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Fomichev : 

Read  him  Shattuck's  wire.  He  was  not  suiprised.  They  had  written  us  their 
last  letter  because  they  were  experiencing  already  difUculties  with  WPB,  Mis- 
cellaneous Minerals  Division,  Mr.  Peacock,  who  did  not  agree  as  yet  to  BEW's 
giving  the  export  license  due  to  urgent  domestic  requirements. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  So  he  was  not  surprised  when  the  Shattuck  Co. 
withdrew  its  offer  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Ta\T':nner.  Is  that  the  first  time  you  knew  that  there  was  diffi- 
culty in  obtaining  the  license? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  TA^^:NNER.  I  am  not  certain  that  I  understood  from  your  read- 
ing whether  Fomichev  advised  you  that  the  license  had  been  denied  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No.     [Reading :] 

because  they  were  experiencing  already  difficulties  with  WPB,  Miscellaneous 
Minerals  Division,  Mr.  Peacock,  who  did  not  agi*ee  as  yet  to  BEW's  giving  the 
export  license  due  to  urgent  domestic  requirements. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  what  occurred  when  you  advised  Fomicliev 
that  the  offer  had  been  withdrawn  ? 
Mr.  Rosenberg  (reading)  : 

We  should  try  to  maintain  the  offer  of  our  supplier ;  they,  of  course,  cannot 
con.sider  us  committed  toward  themselves,  but  they  will  do,  if  still  jrossible,  this 
business  with  us  and  keep  us  posted  about  any  further  developments.  We  might 
try  meanwhile  to  find  some  other  material  for  them,  for  which  the  chances  of 
materialization  might  be  better,  and  advise  them. 


1022  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavennee.  Did  you  take  the  matter  up  with  Mr.  Moore  or  any 
other  person  in  Lend-Lease  when  the  offer  was  withdrawn  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Not  at  this  time ;  no. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliat  supplier  did  you  then  contact  for  the  material 
after  you  were  turned  down  by  Shattuck  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  approached  for  advice  the  Fairmount  Chemical 
Co.  on  April  22,  the  day  w^hen  we  got  the  withdrawal  from  Shattuck. 
They  told  us  that  the  only  suppliers  in  the  United  States  were  Shattuck 
and  du  Pont,  who  got  their  stuff  from  Canada,  and  that  caused  me  to 
get  in  touch  the  following  day,  April  23,  with  the  Canadian  Radium 
&  Uranium  Corp.,  Mr.  A.  J.  Pregel. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  was  April  23  that  you  conferred  with  him  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.    That  was  the  only  visit  with  him. 

Mr.  TxWEnner.  Did  he  tell  you  he  had  the  material  available  for 
you,  or  what  did  he  tell  you  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Tliat  as  far  as  uranium  compounds  are  concerned, 
the  United  States  and  Canada  are  considered  one  country,  with  exactly 
the  same  authorities  in  control  of  the  entire  production  and  stock. 
Nevertheless,  if  we  or  the  Russians  want  to  find  out  whether  for 
Canadian  material  WPB  would  give  allocation  and  export  license 
easier,  they  would  accept  the  order. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  I  understand  you  correctly,  he  told  you  if  an 
export  license  could  be  obtained 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Allocation  and  export  license. 

Mr.  Taa^nner.  An  allocation  could  be  obtained  from  Canada  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  From  our  WPB  easier  for  Canadian  material  than 
for  United  States  material,  then  they  would  accept  the  order. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  not  certain  whether  that  is  clear.  Will  you 
state  again  what  Mr.  Alexander  Pregel  stated,  or  if  you  have  it  written, 
let  me  read  it. 

(Witness  hands  paper  to  Mr.  Tavenner.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  is  a  memorandum  dated  April  23,  and  it 
states : 

Uranium  compounds.  Also  as  far  as  uranium  compounds  are  concerned,  the 
United  States  and  Canada  are  considered  one  country,  with  exactly  the  same 
authorities  in  control  of  the  entire  production  and  stock.  Nevertheless,  if  we  or 
the  Russians  want  to  find  out  whether  for  Canadian  material  WPB  would  give 
allocation  and  export  license  easier,  tliey  would  accept  the  order. 

Mr.  Harrison.  In  other  words,  if  they  would  give  it  easier  for 
Canadian  materials  than  for  American  materials;  is  that  what  you 
mean  ? 

ISIr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  what  I  meant  to  bring  out. 

Mr.  Tavenner  (reading)  : 

Nevertheless,  if  we  or  the  Russians  want  to  find  out  whether  for  Canadian 
material  WPB  would  give  allocation  and  export  license  easier. 

In  other  words,  if  you  could  get  a  WPB  authorization  on  an  export 
license  they  would  be  able  to  get  it  more  easily  in  Canada  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  The  Soviets. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  says  "we  or  the  Russians."  Does  "we"  mean 
Chematar  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  did  you  then  proceed  to  do  after  receiving  that 
information  from  Mr.  Alexander  Pregel  ? 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1023 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  informed  the  Russians  of  that  development  and 
received  on  April  26  a  call  from  Mr.  Fomichev  that  they  had  received 
a  letter  from  the  Lend-Lease  Administrator  saying  they  had  approved 
the  giving  of  an  export  license  by  BEW  for  the  500  pounds  each  of 
uranium  uranic  oxide  and  nitrouranyl;  that  although  they  had  not 
received  yet  the  actual  export  license,  they  now  could  place  the  order 
finally,  and  we  should  see  what  we  still  could  do  with  our  supplier. 
He  said  we  could  mention  that  they  had  received  that  advice  from 
General  Wesson  of  the  Lend-Lease  Administration. 

]\Ir.  Tavenner.  Did  you  know  at  that  time  that  the  license  which 
the  Russians  received  was  the  license  which  Lend-Lease  approved  for 
the  original  material  which  you  were  expecting  to  obtain  from  the 
Shattuck  Co.  ?  _  .  . 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  obvious,  because  I  insisted  on  an  amend- 
ment of  the  export  license  to  make  it  applicable. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  see  the  license  before  it  was  amended  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  never  saw  any  license,  but  we  were  advised  that 
the  license  was  amended  in  writing. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  fact,  you  considered  it  necessary  to  obtain  an 
amendment,  because  you  were  shipping  different  materials  at  different 
prices  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  By  all  means. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  you  advise  the  Russians  that  that  license 
would  have  to  be  amended  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  April  27. 

Mr.  Ta-^tinner.  What  did  you  advise  them  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  phoned  them  on  April  27,  and  my  telephone 
report  reads  like  this : 

When  I  gave  him  (Mr.  Fomichev)  the  negative  reply  as  per  Shattuck's  tele- 
gram, he  said  that  he  cannot  comprehend  this  outcome  but  finally  accepted  the 
situation  as  it  is. 

I  made  him  the  proposition  concerning  Canadian  material  as  per  our  today's 
letter,  which  he  wanted  to  get  to  file  the  amendment  of  the  export  license.  He 
now  has  received  the  export  license  No.  1643180,  dated  April  23,  for  500  lbs.  each, 
Chematar  as  supplier. 

He  objected  to  the  fact  our  present  prices  are  higher  than  previously  quoted 
for  same  material,  which  I  explained  was  of  Canadian  origin. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  Do  I  understand  from  that  that  you  advised  the 
Russian  purchasing  commission  that  the  license  should  be  amended? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir.  We  wrote  them  a  long  letter  about  it,  also, 
confirming  this  telephone  conversation  of  the  same  day. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  is  a  copy  of  the  letter  you  wrote  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  I  desire  to  offer  in  evidence  that  letter,  dated  April 
27,  1943,  addressed  to  Mr.  N.  S.  Fomichev,  the  Government  Purchas- 
ing Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union  in  the  United  States  of  America, 
1610  Park  Road  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C,  signed  Chematar,  Inc.,  by 
Hermann  Rosenberg,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  8." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg 
8,"'  is  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  state  in  this  letter  that  it  is — 

highly   advisable  that  you    (the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission)    try   to  get 
through  the  respective  amendment  to  your  export  license  within  2  or  3  days. 


"  See  appendix. 


1024  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr,  Walter.  Is  it  stated  in  what  respect  the  license  should  be 
amended? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Without  taking  the  time  to  read  the  entire  letter, 
does  it  state  how  the  license  should  be  amended  ? 

Mr.  KosENBERG.  Yes. 

Mr.  AVooD.  Let's  see  the  letter. 

(Exhibit  Rosenberg  8  was  handed  to  Mr.  Wood.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  confer  with  Lend-Lease  about  the  neces- 
sity for  the  amendment  ? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  No.  sir.     It  was  none  of  our  business. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  you  had  confered  with  them  before  that  re- 
garding the  issuance  of  the  license.  Wasn't  it  all  the  more  important 
now  to  get  the  license  amended  promptly  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  had  not  connnunicated  with  them  regarding 
the  issuance  of  the  license.  We  wanted  to  make  absolutely  sure  that 
under  this  WPB  order,  which  prohibited  the  use  of  uranium  com- 
pounds in  glassware,  ceramics,  and  so  forth,  for  domestic  purposes 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  talking  about  Mr.  Moore,  in  particular,  of 
Lend-Lease.  You  had  been  in  touch  with  him  on  several  occasions 
about  the  issuance  of  the  license  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  did  you  get  in  touch  with  Mr.  Moore  or  any 
other  person  in  Lend-Lease  about  expediting  the  amendment,  which 
was  the  thing  that  was  immediately  confronting  you  at  the  time  you 
wrote  this  letter? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  do  not  think  that  we  did  that,  and  I  was  by  that 
time  under  the  impression  that  the  special  care  which  we  wanted 
to  give  this  matter  was  not  required  under  the  order,  since  the  clear- 
ance was  given,  and  since  it  was  none  of  our  business,  anyhow. 

Mr,  Wood.  I  believe  a  reading  of  the  copy  of  this  letter  would 
clarify  a  good  manj^  of  the  things  we  are  asking  about.  The  letter, 
dated  April  27,  1943,  is  directed  to  Mr,  N.  S.  Fomichev,  the  Govern- 
ment Purchasing  Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union  in  the  U.  S.  A., 
1610  Park  Road  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C.  It  is  marked  "Special 
delivery"  and  is  re :  Uranium  compounds : 

Dear  Mr.  Fomichev  :  As  we  told  you  this  afternoon,  the  plant,  with  which 
we  had  made  the  arran,i,"enients,  subject  to  actual  receipt  of  Export  License, 
before  they  have  had  to  dispose  elsewhere  of  the  500  pounds  of  urano-uranic  oxide 
and  500  pounds  of  nitrouranyl,  could  not  accept  the  oi'der  any  more,  due  to  other 
arrangements  they  had  to  make  during  the  long  time  until  the  export  license 
actually  came  into  yoiu-  hands. 

We  have  actually  done  the  utmost  to  accommodate  you  and  were  pleased  that, 
in  spite  of  the  ever  growing  tightness  of  the  uranium  situation,  we  thus  were 
able  to  submit  to  you  the  following  proposition,  which  is  to  be  understood  of 
course  subject  to  change  until  you  enable  us  this  time  to  make  absolutely  iinal 
arrangements  on  the  basis  of  an  export  license  in  full  conformity  with  our 
proposal. 

V^^e  have  made  preparatory  arrangements  with  Canadian  supijliers,  who  have 
told  us  that  under  the  above  outlined  conditions  the  following  order  could  be 
accepted : 

5(X)  pounds  of  each  or  1,000  pounds  of  one  of  black  uranium  oxide  95/98 
percent  UsOg,  at  .$3.10.  Uranium  nitrate  crystals  99.5  percent  pure,  prac- 
tically chemically  pure,  at  $2.85 ;  both  prices  to  be  understood  per  pound  net 
weight,  including  packing,  f.  o.  b.  United  States  point  of  delivery. 

Delivery  within  ab<mt  H  weeks  after  receipt  of  order  indicating  the  luunber 
of  corresponding  United  States  export  license. 
Usual  terms  and  conditions. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1025 

To  prevent  a  repetition  of  the  last  exi)erience,  it  would  be  highly  advisable 
that  yon  try  to  get  through  the  respective  amendment  to  your  export  license 
vpitliin  2  or  3  days,  what  for  emergency  amendment  of  this  kind  has  always  been 
possible,  and  that  you  call  us  up  the  moment  you  have  this  export  license  in  your 
hands.  You  should,  furthermore,  send  us  the  necessary  declaration  right  away, 
so  that  we  have  it  on  file  when  your  final  order  is  being  given.  Please  find  the 
wording  in  the  draft  we  sent  you  on  April  5  and  change  it  in  accordance  with  the 
order  you  want  to  give  us  now. 

We  have  noted  that  you  now  have  received  export  license  No.  1643180,  but  its 
date  of  April  23  shows,  of  course,  that  it  could  not  have  reached  you  before  one 
of  the  last  few  days. 

We  have  made  our  preparatory  arrangements  in  accordance  with  the  quantities 
of  your  recent  order,  but  we  believe  it  possible  that  still  somewhat  larger  quanti- 
ties could  be  secured  if  you  would  succeed  in  obtaining  for  additional  quantities 
export  license  without  too  much  delay. 

We  sincerely  trust  to  get  your  definite  advice  by  phone  not  later  than  Friday, 
the  30th. 

Very  truly  yours, 

Chematar,  Inc., 
By  Hermann  Rosenberg. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  indicated  in  that  letter  that  Mr.  Pregel  had 
advised  you  that  there  were  additional  quantities  of  uranium  that  may 
be  made  available.     What  did  he  tell  you  about  that  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  In  the  report  of  visit  of  April  23  is  the  following 
sentence : 

They  do  not  have  any  stocks,  but  1,000  pounds  or  more  of  each  product  can 
be  made  up  right  away  and  within  2  or  3  weeks  delivered  to  the  desired  United 
States  point. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  he  tell  you  how  much  more  than  1,000  pounds 
could  be  delivered  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Not  to  my  recollection. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  also  write  a  letter  to  Canadian  Radium  & 
Uranium  Corp.  in  regard  to  your  order  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  ^Do  you  have  that  letter  there  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.*  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  May  I  see  it  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes  [producing  same]. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  the  first  paragraph  of  this  letter,  dated  April 
27,  1943,  addressed  to  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  630  Fifth 
Avenue,  New  York,  you  state : 

In  acknowledgment  of  our  understanding,  we  wish  to  confirm  for  good  order's 
sake  that  we  are  working  on  order  and  export  license  on  the  basis  of  your  follow- 
ing quotations : 

Then  you  give  the  quotations.  You  say  you  are  working  on  the  export 
license.  Does  that  refresh  your  recollection  now  to  the  point  that  you 
can  tell  us  the  nature  of  the  work  you  were  doing  in  obtaining  the 
export  license? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  meant  in  this  case  our  customers,  whom  we  did 
not  care  to  disclose  to  our  supplier. 

JSfr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  this  letter  in  evidence,  and  ask  that 
it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  9." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg 
9,"  is  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)  " 

"  See  appendix. 

99334 — 50 9 


1026  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenxer.  How  soon  after  tlie  writing  of  that  letter  on  April 
27  did  you  receive  word  that  the  license  had  been  amended  ? 

Mr,  Rosenberg.  In  this  particular  case  I  have  a  copy  of  the  letter 
from  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission,  because  we  got  this  letter 
in  two  copies  and  we  maintained  the  second  copy  in  our  file. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  letter,  dated  April  29,  1943,  signed  by  N.  S. 
Fomichev,  In  Charge  of  Chemicals,  and  addressed  to  Chematar,  Inc., 
states  in  its  first  paragraph? 

Today  we  received  an  amended  export  license  #1643180,  covering  500  lbs.  of 
Black  Uranium  Oxide,  at  $3.10  per  lb.,  for  $1550.00,  and  500  lbs.  of  Uranium 
Nitrate,  at  $2.85  per  lb.,  for  $1425.00— total  amount,  $2975. 

Mr.  Wood.  Wliat  is  the  date  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  April  29,  1943.  I  offer  that  letter  in  evidence  and 
ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  10." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  received. 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg 
10,"  is  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)" 

Mr.  Tavi:nner.  Do  you  know  how  tlie  Russian  Purchasing  Commis- 
sion was  able  to  obtain  an  amendment  of  that  license  between  the  date 
of  your  letter,  April  27,  and  the  date  of  this  letter,  April  29  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  you  advised  in  any  way  how  it  was  done  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  at  any  time  see  the  amended  license  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No,  sir.     It  was  not  our  business. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  the  transaction  consummated  for  the  purchase 
and  shipment  of  that  material? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  briefly  about  it. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  On  May  1,  after  having  received  the  letter  from 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  of  April  29,  we  accepted  the  order 
from  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  ''based  on  export  license 
No.  1643180,  as  amended,"  and  on  the  same  date  we  placed  the  order 
with  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  of  New  York  "under 
export  license  No.  1643180,  as  amended." 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  and  by  whom  were  you  paid  for  the  shipment  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  were  paid  by  Amtorg  Corp. — ^Amtorg  Trading 
Corp.,  I  believe  is  the  full  name — of  New  York. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  you  remitted  the  money  to  whom,  after  de- 
ducting the  fee  for  your  services  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  To  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  in 
New  York  City. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  were  you  paid  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  By  check. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  By  check  of  what  organization?  Did  you  say 
Amtorg  ? 

Mr.  Kearney.  Were  you  paid  by  check  of  the  Amtorg  Corp.  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  suppose  so.  I  have  not  seen  the  check,  but  I  have 
a  copy  of  the  invoice  to  Amtorg. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Was  the  check  payable  to  you  or  to  your  company  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

"  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1027 

Mr.  Kearney.  Did  you  see  it? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  don't  see  the  checks.  They  go  to  the  bookkeeping 
department. 

Mr.  Kearney.  You  personally  didn't  see  it  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Wood.  Then  how  did  your  company  pay  the  Canadian  Radium 
&  Uranium  Corp. ;  by  check  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  have  that  check  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes;  I  must  have  the  check.  I  have  the  bill  of 
the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  and  the  check  must  be  in 
accordance  with  that  bill.  That  is  the  shipping  advice.  The  bill  is 
in  our  bookkeeping  department. 

ISIr.  Kearney.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  ask  a?  question  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  Yes.   Mr.  Kearney. 

Mr;  Kearney.  Did  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  laiow 
that  the  Soviet  Government  was  your  customer  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  They  have  marked  the  cases  "USSR." 

Mr.  Kearney.  You  can  answer  my  question,  can't  you?  Did  the 
Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  know  that  your  customer  was. 
the  Soviet  Government  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir.  They  must  have  known  it,  because  they 
have  marked  the  cases  "USSR." 

Mr.  Kearney.  Did  they  know  or  didn't  they  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg:  Yes,  sir ;  they  did, 

Mr.  Harrison.  And  so  marked  their  invoice  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.  We  even  notified  them.  I  have  a  letter  here 
of  May  21,  in  which  I  say : 

We  just  liad  a  telepbone  call  from  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission,  who 
are  very  anxious  to  get  the  merchandise  at  the  latest  in  the  course  of  next 
week    *    *    * 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Let  me  read  it,  if  you  don't  mind.  This  is  a  letter 
dated  May  21,  1943,  from  Chematar,  Inc.,  by  Hermann  Rosenberg, 
directed  to  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  630  Fifth  Avenue, 
New  York,  N.  Y.,  attention  Mr.  Alexander  Pregel,  vice  president,  re 
order  of  May  1, 1943  [reading] : 

Gentlemen  :  We  called  you  up  today  to  ask  you  to  find  out  by  telegram  from 
your  Canadian  plant  whether  the  1,000  pounds  uranium  compounds  as  per  our 
captioned  order  have  already  been  sliipped  to  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  or  when  that 
will  be  done.  We  just  had  a  telephone  call  from  the  Russian  Purchasing  Com- 
mission, who  are  very  anxious  to  get  tlie  merchandise  at  the  latest  in  the 
course  of  next  week,  to  make  a  certain  conveyance  for  transportation  to  the 
Soviet  Union. 

Please  do  not  fail  to  let  us  have  this  advice  tomorrow  or  at  the  latest  Mon- 
day morning,  all  the  more  as  it  is  today  already  3  weeks  since  we  placed  this 
urgent  order  with  you. 

Mr.  Kearney.  What  is  the  date? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  May  21, 1943.  I  offer  that  letter  in  evidence  and  ask 
that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  11." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg 
11,"  is  hereinabove  incorporated  in  the  record.)  " 

"  See  appendix. 


15 


1028  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then,  again,  there  is  another  letter  written  by 
Chematar,  Inc.,  to  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  under  date 
of  May  1,  1943,  attention  Mr.  A.  J.  Pregel,  vice  president  [reading]  : 

Gentlemen  :  In  reference  to  your  attached  purchase  confirmation,  we  wish 
to  advise  you  that  we  are  working  on  further  orders  for  you  from  the  Soviet 
Government,  for  which,  as  we  told  you,  we  are  placing  these  orders. 

We  hope  that  we  can  build  up  a  continuous  business  with  you  and  trust 
that  we  may  count  on  your  cooperation  hereby. 

I  offer  that  letter  in  evidence,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit 
Eosenberg  12." 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  I  am  paid  for  doing  business. 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg 
12,"  is  hereinabove  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  What  other  uranium  requests  were  you  working  on 
at  that  time  for  the  Soviet  Government? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  There  was  no  other. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  There  was  no  other  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Your  letter  says  there  was. 

Mr,  Rosenberg.  That  doesn't  mean  that  there  was.  I  tried  to 
impress  my  customer. 

Sir.  Ta\'enner.  a  trade  practice,  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  there  any  later  time  when  .you  did  work  on 
further  requests  from  the  Russian  Government  for  uranium? 

Mr,  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  was  that  ? 

]Mr.  Rosenberg.  May  I  have  the  opportunity  of  improving  my  pre- 
vious statement  ?  I  have  the  original  invoice  of  the  Canadian  Radium 
&  Uranium  Corp.  here. 

Mr.  Wood.  We  have  a  photostatic  copy  of  it,  but  we  will  accept  the 
original.  We  would  rather  have  the  original.  All  we  have  is  a  photo- 
static copy. 

Mr,  Ta\t3nner.  I  desire  to  offer  the  invoice  in  evidence,  and  ask  that 
it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  13." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  invoice  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  13," 
is  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^' 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  need  it  for  the  income-tax  collector. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  will  make  a  copy  and  return  the  original  to 
you. 

Now  will  you  answer  my  question  about  further  transactions  ?  The 
invoice  you  have  just  presented  related  to  the  1,000  pounds  we  have 
been  talking  about.  What  other  inquiries  did  you  receive  requesting 
that  you  obtain  uranium  for  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  heard  from  Mr.  Pregel  that  the  Canadian  repre- 
sentative of  the  Russians  tried  to  cut  us  out,  and  had  communicated 
with  them  directly,  and  I  asked  him  not  to  offer  them  directly  because 
we  want  to  stay  in  the  business.  That  was  on  INIay  25.  On  May  27 
Mr.  Pregel  told  me  he  has  talked  to  Toronto  and  they  will  not  quote 
to  the  Russians.    His  inquiry  came  from  Ottawa.    They  will  try  to 

^^  See  appendix. 
"  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1029 

refer  them  to  New  York  and  then  he  will  commimicate  with  us; 
Pregel  will  communicate  with  us. 

Mr.  Wood.  Which  Mr.  Pregel  was  that? 

Mr.  EosENBERG,  Alexander. 

INIr.  Tamdnner.  In  other  words,  that  was  looking  to  future  business 
in  uranium? 

JSIr.  Rosenberg.  There  must  have  been  an  inquiry  for  uranium  from 
the  Russians  from  Ottawa. 

Mr.  Harrison.  The  next  time  the  Russians  wanted  uranium,  they 
went  directly  to  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  and  that 
company,  Mr.  Pregel's  company,  notified  you  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  don't  understand  that.  Read  your  memorandum 
over  again. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  On  May  25,  I  have  a  memorandum  here,  that  Mr. 
A.  Pregel  promised  to  call  Toronto  and  have  them  refrain  from  quot- 
ing to  the  Russians. 

llr.  Ta^^nner.  Have  who  refrain  from  quoting? 

]Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  depend  on  this  memorandum. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Does  that  mean  have  Eldorado  mines  refrain  from 
quoting  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  my  interpretation. 

]N[r.  Harrison.  As  I  understand,  the  Russians  were  attempting  to 
avoid  paying  a  commission  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Unfortunately,  yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Of  course  the  American  taxpayers  were  paying  it  all. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Mr.  Chairman,  can  I  have  the  date  of  shipment  of 
the  1,000  pounds  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  The  original  invoice  shows  May  21, 1943. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Where  was  that  shipped  to  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  understand  that  this  shipment  of  1,000  pounds 
was  delivered  to  the  Russians  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  It  was  shipped  to  Col.  A.  N.  Kotikov,  resident  rep- 
resentative of  the  Soviet  Government  Purchasing  Commission,  Air 
Service  Depot  of  the  Air  Transport  Command,  Gore  Field,  Great 
Falls,  Mont.,  U.  S.  A.     I  have  that  from  the  shipping  advice. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  was  shipped  from  Port  Hope  in  Canada  to  Great 
Falls,  Mont.  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.  I  have  the  routing  here,  and  it  gives  the 
Russian  order  number. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Finish  your  statement  as  to  what  occurred  regard- 
ing your  conference  with  Pregel  on  May  27. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  There  was  a  telephone  conversation  on  May  25 — two 
telephone  conversations.  On  May  25  I  have  a  memorandum  that  I 
shall  call  him  up  tomorrow  morning  and  find  out  what  he  has  ar- 
ranged. No  point  in  our  calling  Toronto  directly,  because  they  would 
not  take  any  directions  from  us  (Chematar)  and  they  do  not  act 
without  approval  of  the  New  York  office. 

Mr.  Ta\"enner.  Tell  us  the  names  of  the  parties  whom  you  were 
expected  to  call.     Whom  were  you  going  to  call  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Mr.  Pregel. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Whom  were  you  going  to  call  in  Canada  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  wanted  to  call  the  Toronto  office. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Of  what? 


1030  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  suppose  of  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp. 
I  am  sorry  I  don't  remember  that  any  more.  And  on  May  27  Mr. 
Pregel  called  me  back,  and  I  think  that  telephone  report  was  under- 
stood, or  shall  I  read  it  again? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Read  it  again. 

Mr.  Rosenberg  (reading)  : 

He  has  talked  to  Toronto  and  they  will  not  quote  to  the  Russians.  Since  their 
inquiry  was  a  quite  vague  one,  there  is  no  point  in  our  offering  them  and  quoting 
them  prices  at  the  present  moment. 

I  do  not  know  if  that  was  told  to  me  or  if  I  wrote  that  down  for 
our  company  of  our  intention,  but  I  have  a  report  of  June  2,  when 
I  spoke  to  Mr.  Cherniakov  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission 
because  Mr.  Fomichev  was  out  of  town  for  a  time  and  he  was  taking 
charge  of  chemical  purchases. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  next  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  A  letter  of  the  same  date  to  the  Russians. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  what  occurred  finally  as  a  result  of  the  in- 
quiries the  Russians  were  making,  which  apparently  started  from  the 
Ottawa  office? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  have  a  letter  from  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Com- 
mission, but  it  has  no  reference  to  our  shipments. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  want  to  see  those  letters,  but  we  will  not  take 
the  time  to  read  them  now,  unless  they  have  a  bearing, 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  This  letter  of  June  11,  1943,  from  the  Soviet  Pur- 
chasing Commission  to  Chematar  says : 

In  reply  to  your  letters  of  May  29  and  June  2  concerning  uranium  compound 
and  radium,  I  wish  to  advise  you  that  we  communicated  with  the  lend-lease 
authorities  in  order  to  grant  the  export  license  in  case  we  will  place  an  order 
for  the  additional  quantity  of  the  same  material  with  your  company.  If  the 
United  States  authorities  will  grant  us  an  export  license,  we  will  be  glad  to 
discuss  with  you  the  matter  in  question. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  locate  any  additional  supply  of  uranium  for 
them  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  attempt  to  get  any  for  them,  or  did  they 
■attempt  to  get  approval  again  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  And  the  next  time  it  was  not  forthcoming? 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  I  would  like  to  call  attention  that  this  letter  is  signed 
"S.  S.  Cherniakov,  In  Charge  of  Explosive  Material  and  Chemical 
Installation."    This  is  the  first  time  his  name  appears. 

Mr.  Harrison.  And,  so  far  as  you  know,  the  shipment  of  May  1943 
was  the  last  uranium  that  the  Rusisans  were  able  to  obtain  in  this 
country  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  From  us. 

Mr.  Harrison.  As  far  as  you  know,  it  was  the  last  uranium  they  got 
from  any  source  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Except  from  what  I  heard  in  this  meeting.  But 
they  approached  us  again  on  August  5. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Rosenberg,  the  letter  that  you  have  produced  under 
date  of  June  11,  1943,  which  has  a  stamp  in  the  right-hand  corner 
"Received  June  12,"  signed  by  S.  S.  Cherniakov,  is  there  objection 
to  leaving  this  letter  with  us  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No,  sir. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1031 

Mr.  Wood.  The  letter  is  addressed  to  Chematar,  Inc.,  40  Exchange 
Place,  New  York,  N.  Y.  It  is  on  the  letterhead  of  the  Government  Pur- 
chasing Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union  in  the  United  States  of 
America,  and  is  marked  "Attention :  Mr.  Herman  Kosenberg."  The 
letter  is  as  follows : 

Gentlemen  :  In  reply  to  your  letters  of  May  29  aud  June  2  concerning  uranium 
compound  and  radium,  I  wish  to  advise  you  that  we  communicated  with  the 
lend-lease  authorities  in  order  to  grant  the  export  license  in  case  we  will  place 
an  order  for  the  additional  quantity  of  the  said  material  with  your  company. 
If  the  United  States  authorities  will  grant  us  an  export  license,  we  will  be  glad 
to  discuss  with  you  the  matter  in  question. 
Thanking  you  for  your  cooperation,  we  are 
Very  truly  yours, 

S.  S.  Chebniakov, 
In  Charge  of  Explosive  Material  a7id  Chemical  Installation. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  the  letter  of  June  11,  1943,  in 
evidence,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  14." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  14,"  is 
hereinabove  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^* 

Mr.  Wood.  I  note  in  this  letter,  Mr.  Rosenberg,  Mr.  Cherniakov  says, 
"in  case  we  will  place  an  order  for  the  additional  quantity."  That 
indicates,  to  my  mind,  that  there  had  been  under  discussion  some  addi- 
tional quantity.  It  doesn't  state  place  an  order  for  "an"  additional 
quantity,  but  for  "the"  additional  quantity.  Had  they  been  negotiat- 
ing for  further  quantities? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  The  letter  of  June  2,  addressed  by  me  to  them,  says : 

We  still  are  able  to  supply  you  with  additional  quantities  of  uranium  nitrate 
and  black  uranium  oxide,  aud,  since  we  understand  that  further  quantities  are 
inquired  for  the  USSR,  please  advise  us  for  wnat  additloual  quantity  of  either 
compound  you  would  like  to  have  our  offer. 

That  is  all  I  know. 

Mr.  Walter.  To  whom  was  that  letter  addressed? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Attention  Mr.  S.  S.  Cherniakov. 

JVIr.  Walter.  The  man  in  charge  of  explosives  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.  It  doesn't  say  that,  but  it  is  marked  for  the 
attention  of  Mr.  Cherniakov. 

Mr.  Wood.  Let's  receive  that  letter  also. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  introduce  in  evidence  the  letter  of  June  2, 
1943,  from  Chematar,  Inc.  to  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission, 
and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg  15." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  received. 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Rosenberg 
15,"  is  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

jNIr.  Tavenner.  You  do  know  the  quantity  of  materials  they  were 
inquiring  about  at  that  time;  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Look  at  your  memorandum  of  August  5. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  was  later.    We  are  talking  about  June  now. 

I^Ir.  Tavenner.  Did  you  later  find  out  how  much  they  were  inter- 
ested in  purchasing? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  think  this  was  later. 


"  See  appendix. 
^  See  appendix. 


1032  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  anything  happen  between  June  11  and  August 
5,  1943,  relating  to  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Not  according  to  my  recollection  and  the  files  at 
my  disposal. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  happened  August  5, 1943  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  read  from  a  telephone  report  of  a  conversation 
on  August  5, 1943,  with  M.  N.  S.  Fomichev : 

Uranium  compounds. — They  recently  have  asked  WPB  again  to  make  a  survey 
to  the  effect  if  not  another  10-15  tons  could  be  located  for  them. 

I  suggested  they  ask  Mr.  Moore  to  communicate  with  us  to  find  out  whether 
our  supplier  could  make  available  such  or  a  similar  quantity  against  allocation. 

See  separate  telephone  report  with  Mr.  Moore. 

Mr.  Walter.  Do  yon  remember  Mr.  Moore's  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  William  C.  Moore. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  mentioned  a  Mr.  Park  a  moment  ago.  Wlio  was 
that? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Wlio? 

Mr.  Walter.  Park  of  WPB. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  He  was  an  assistant  to  Mr.  Land.  I  talked  to  him 
on  the  phone. 

Mr.  Walter.  Do  you  remember  his  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  don't  remember  it,  but  I  might  have  it  in  my 
files. 

In  that  conversation  with  Lend-Lease  Administrator  William  C. 
Moore  of  August  5,  1943,  to  which  I  referred,  it  says  in  the  telephone 
report : 

Re  uranium  compounds. — There  is  no  material  available  for  Russians  at  the 
present  time,  and  also  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corporation  has  reported 
to  him  that  they  have  nothing  available. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  advised  Lend-Lease  on  August  5, 1943,  in  effect, 
that  you  had  been  doing  business  with  the  Canadian  Radium  & 
Uranium  Corp.    Isn't  that  the  effect  of  this  telephone  communication  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  May  I  see  it  again  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Maybe  I  misunderstood  your  reading  of  it. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  do  not  remember  the  wording. 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  This  is  what  Mr.  Moore  told  him. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  were  stating  what  Mr.  Moore  said? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  thought  you  were  stating  what  you  said  to  Mr. 
Moore. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes ;  I  told  him  that.  How  could  Mr.  Moore  talk 
to  me  about  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  unless  I  told 
him  about  that  company? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  this  telephone  report  you  say : 

There  is  no  material  available  for  Russians  at  the  present  time. 

Who  made  that  statement  ?     You  or  Mr.  Moore  ? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  Mr.  Moore. 
Mr.  Tavenner  (reading)  :     *     *     * 

and  also  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  has  reported  to  him  that  they 
have  nothing  available. 

That  is,  reported  to  Mr.  Moore  ? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  correct. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1033 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Had  you  told  Mr.  Moore  prior  to  that  time  that  you 
had  been  obtaining  urani^^n  through  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium 
Corp.? 

]Mr.  EosENBERG.  I  have  no  record  of  that,  and  I  have  no  recollection 
of  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  at  any  time  talk  to  a  member  of  the  staff 
of  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  about  the  obtaining  of  mate- 
rials from  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Since  I  have  learned  at  this  hearing  that  Lieutenant 
Burman  was  a  member  of  that  outfit,  and  in  his  absence  I  spoke  to 
Colonel  Crenshaw,  I  know  I  talked  to  that  outfit. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  occurred  during  the  first  shipment  from  Shat- 
tuck.  Did  you  talk  to  them  about  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium 
Corp.  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  never  had  any  further  contact  with  them,  because 
they  referred  me  back  to  WPB,  and  my  understanding  was  that  they 
were  not  interested  in  our  business.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  Colonel  Cren- 
shaw told  me  at  that  time  that  uranium  was  not  their  business. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  understand.  I  am  not  talking  about  that  conver- 
sation. Did  you  talk  to  Mr.  Moore  or  anybody  in  Lend-Lease  about 
the  supply  you  had  been  getting  from  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium 
Corp  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  This  is  my  only  record  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliy  would  Mr.  Moore  have  made  a  statement  like 
that  to  you  if  you  had  not  discussed  that  corporation  with  him? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  is  what  I  wanted  to  bring  out.  I  must  have 
told  him  we  were  in  contact  with  that  company  at  that  time  and  asked 
whether  we  would  be  permitted  to  transact  business  with  this  company 
for  the  Russians;  and  I  have  another  telephone  report  of  that  same 
date  that  might  be  of  interest  to  you. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  spoke  on  August  5  to  Mr.  Pregel  of  the  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Which  Mr.  Pregel? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  The  telephone  report  says,  "Mr.  Pregel  (Mr.  A.  G. 
Pregel  out  of  town ) ,"  so  it  must  have  been  the  other  one. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  there  more  than  two  Pregels  that  you  know  of  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  didn't  even  know  of  the  second  one  up  to  that 
date.     This  telephone  report  says : 

Re  uranium  compounds. — They  are  not  allowed  any  longer  to  quote  or  even 
give  us  any  information.  We  would  have  to  approach  WPB  for  that.  The  prices 
are  unchanged,  but  they  have  no  material  for  sale.  Unofficially,  he  would  say 
there  is  no  chance  in  approaching  WPB  at  present.  The  proper  way  would  be  that 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  communicate  with  the  Canadian  Government 
Ministry  of  Munitions  and  Supplies;  the  Russians  know  exactly  the  procedure. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  what  Mr.  Pregel  told  youf 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  he  could  make  no  further  quotations  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Taxtenner.  Did  he  tell  you  why  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg  (reading)  : 

They  are  not  allowed  any  longer  to  quote  or  even  give  us  any  information. 


1034  SHIPAIENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Wood.  What  did  the  last  sentence  in  tl\at  memorandum  mean : 
That  the  Russians  would  know  the  exact  procedure  ?  The  exact  pro- 
cedure for  what  ? 

Mr.  EosENBERG.  For  approaching  the  Canadian  Government  Min- 
istry of  JNIunitions  and  Supplies. 

Mr.  Wood.  Did  it  refer  to  the  Canadian  Government  or  to  a  branch 
of  the  American  Government  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  As  I  understand  it  refers  to  the  Canadian  Govern- 
ment, because  it  says : 

Canadian  Government  Ministry  of  Munitions  and  Supplies. 

Mr.  Wood.  May  I  see  that  memorandum  ? 

(Said  memorandum  was  handed  to  Mr.  Wood.) 

Mr.  Wood.  This  memorandum  reads  in  this  language : 

They  are  not  allowed  any  longer  to  quote  or  even  give  us  any  information. 

By  "they"  you  meant  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  ? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 
Mr.  Wood.  The  next  sentence  is : 

We  would  have  to  approach  WPB  for  that. 

Who  is  "we"? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Chematar,  Inc. 

Mr.  Wood.  And  WPB  is  a  branch  of  the  American  Government? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wood  (reading)  : 

The  prices  are  unchanged,  but  they  have  no  material  for  sale. 

That  is  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.  ? 
Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Wood  (reading)  : 

Unofficially,  he  would  say  there  is  no  chance  in  approaching  WPB  at  present. 

Wliat  do  you  mean  by  "unoiScially,  he  would  say"  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  He  only  could  tell  me  his  o]3inion  whether  there  is 
any  change  in  my  approaching  WPB  or  not. 

Mr.  Wood  (reading)  : 

The  proper  way  would  be  that  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  communicate 
with  the  Canadian  Government  Ministry  of  Munitions  and  Supplies ;  the  Russians 
know  exactly  the  procedure. 

Mr.  Ta-vt.nner.  Did  you  convey  that  information  to  the  Russians  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  don't  think  I  did. 

Mr.  TA^T.NNER.  From  your  independent  recollection,  do  you  not 
know  you  passed  that  information  on  ? 

Mr.  WoLKTSER.  We  did  pass  it  on. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  don't  recollect  it,  and  I  don't  have  a  note  here.  I 
will  check  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Let  us  check  it  now.  It  is  of  some  importance.  Do 
you  have  records  here  that  disclose  that? 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  There  was  something  that  made  me  think  we  in- 
formed the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission.  In  1948,  when  we  pre- 
pared the  statement  for  the  committee,  we  told  the  committee  we 
passed  this  information  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  and  had 
no  further  dealings.  It  is  something  he  presumed  he  must  have  told 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission.  In  other  words,  he  presumes  that 
he  notified  them  of  the  outcome  of  his  efforts  to  obtain  the  material. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1035 

Mr.  Harrison.  It  was  the  natural  thing  to  do. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes ;  I  owed  them  an  answer,  and  I  presumably  did. 
I  would  normally  do  so.  •         v  i 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  follow  up  to  see  whether  the  Eussians  did 
obtain  uranium  through  Canadian  sources,  to  determine  whether  or 
not  you  were  entitled  to  commissions  on  the  sales  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  I  didn't  go  that  far.  Incidentally,  this  was  such 
a  minor  deal  for  us  at  that  time.  The  entire  business  we  did  with 
the  Russians  from  1942  to  1945  was  $17,500,  which  represented  about 
21/2  percent  of  our  total  business  during  those  years.  OPA  w^as  in 
effect  at  that  time.     I  wasn't  too  keen  about  the  business. 

Mr.  Kearney.  You  did  business  with  them,  though  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  It  was  a  small  customer.  I  wish  we  had  not,  now. 
I  would  like  to  mention  that  we  have  last  shipped  to  the  Russians  in 
1946  $450  worth  of  merchandise  the  balance  of  old  orders,  and  not  a 
penny  since  our  relations  with  them  deteriorated. 

JVIr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  have  transactions  with  the  Russian  Pur- 
chasing Commission  relating  to  heavy  water? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  about  it  briefly. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  got  an  inquiry  from  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission  August  23,  1943,  for  heavy  water. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  much? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  One  thousand  grams,  for  research  purposes. 

Mr,  Tavenner,  Tell  us  how  you  went  about  obtaining  a  supply  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg,  We  were  guided  in  this  case  by  chemical  address 
books  which  we  use  in  cases  where  we  don't  know  the  product,  and  I 
found  a  supplier  here  [indicating  name  in  address  book]  whom  I 
must  have  approached,  I  have  no  note  of  that,  but  he  must  have 
told  me  that  the  Stuart  Oxygen  Co.  in  San  Francisco  was  the  only 
commercial  manufacturer  of  that  product. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  the  name  of  the  company  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Stuart  Oxygen  Co.  in  San  Francisco.  We  ap- 
proached them  August  24,  1943,  and  received  an  offer  right  away  on 
1,000  grams,  with  an  unsolicited  firm  offer  to  accept  at  a  later  date. 
We  passed  this  quotation  to  the  Russians,  They  accepted  it  on  Octo- 
ber 21,  1943,  The  merchandise  was  ready  for  immediate  shipment, 
and  it  actually  was  shipped  on  October  30,  1943. 

Mr.  Wood.  Actually  shipped  when? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  October  30,  1943,  We  tried  to  get  additional  or- 
ders from  the  Russians  for  this  product,  and  they  said  they  were  not 
interested,  until  on  January  16,  1945,  unsolicited,  they  inquired  for 
anotlier  100  grams,  which  we  purchased  from  the  same  company. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  To  whom  were  those  shipments  consigned? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  To  our  company  in  New  York. 

Mr,  Tavenner,  T\niat  did  you  do  with  them  when  you  received 
them  ? 

Mr,  Rosenberg.  Shipped  them,  unopened,  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission  in  Washington. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  disposition  of 
those  shipments  after  that? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  you  given  packing  directions  as  to  how  this 
material  should  be  packed  for  shipping? 


1036  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  ^ave  the  directions  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  The  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  told  us  they 
would  like  to  have  the  thousand  grams  shipped  in  four  boxes.  Stuart 
Oxygen  Co.  told  us  what  was  the  normal  packing,  and  they  assured  us 
they  knew  best  because  they  are  the  only  commercial  manufacturers 
of  this  product  in  this  country  and  have  been  shipping  it  since  1934  all 
over  the  world,  since  it  was  discovered  by  Professor  Urey,  and  we  left 
it  up  to  them. 

Mr.  Wood.  How  was  it  packed  ? 

]\Ir.  Rosenberg.  They  were  packed  in  four  individual  boxes,  250 
grams  net  in  each  box. 

Mr.  Wood.  Two  hundred  and  fifty  grams  in  each  box? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  Net? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Net  weight  of  the  heavy  water  itself,  but  on  account 
of  its  special  elaborate  packing,  the  gi'oss  weight  of  each  box  was 
6.37  pounds — so  that  the  total  shipment,  which  just  contained  1,000 
grams,  or  2.21  pounds,  was  41.12  pounds  gross.  In  other  words,  the 
packing  was  almost  39  pounds. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  those  four  packages  shipped  separately? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No.    They  were  in  one  outside  box. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  They  were  contained  in  one  outside  box? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes ;  one  large  box. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  was  the  condition  of  the  shipment  at  the  time 
you  received  it  and  at  the  time  you  sent  it  on  to  the  Russian  Purchas- 
ing Commission  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Unopened  and  unhandled.  We  insisted,  since  we 
didn't  know  about  this  product  and  since  we  didn't  want  to  get  any- 
thing they  did  not  want,  that  a  neutral  laboratory  in  San  Francisco 
check  the  merchandise  and  packing  before  it  was  shipped  to  us. 

Abbot  A.  Hanks,  Inc.,  engineers,  assayers,  chemists,  metallurgists, 
consulting,  testing,  inspecting,  624  Sacramento  Street,  San  Francisco, 
Calif.,  gave  us  the  following  statement,  sworn  to  by  Mr.  Prentiss  T. 
Bee,  chief  chemist,  dated  October  27, 1943,  addressed  to  Stuart  Oxygen 
Co.,  351  California  Street,  San  Francisco,  Calif. : 

Dear  Sies  :  Our  chief  chemist,  Mr.  Prentiss  T.  Bee.  checked  the  analysis  of 
over  1,000  grams  of  deuterium  oxide  (D2O)  which  analyzed  between  99.7  and 
and  99.8  percent  D:;0  and  checked  the  weighing  and  filling  of  the  40  pyrex 
ampoules,  and  weighing  of  the  same  after  filling.  Each  of  these  ampoules  contains 
more  than  25  grams  of  D2O. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  w^as  w^ondering  if  we  could  dispense 
with  the  reading  of  all  these  papers  until  counsel  has  a  chance  to 
examine  them.  It  was  stated  at  the  beginning  of  the  session  that  Mr. 
Rosenberg  was  willing  to  turn  the  papers  over  to  the  staff  to  go  through 
them,  and  I  think  we  can  save  time  by  doing  it  that  way. 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  There  is  just  one  more  paragraph  about  the  packing, 
if  you  are  interested  in  that. 

Mr.  Wood.  Very  well. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1037 

Mr.  Rosenberg  (continuing  reading)  : 

These  were  all  sealed  in  his  presence,  packed  in  cartons,  and  placed  in  mailing 
tubes,  and  then  he  put  10  ampoules,  250  grams,  in  each  four  wooden  boxes, 
being  packed  between  layers  of  cotton  in  each  of  the  boxes.     These  four  boxes 
were  placed  in  one  large  wooden  box,  which  was  then  strapped  and  sealed. 
Very  truly  yours, 

Abbot  A.  Hanks,  Inc., 
By  Hebbekt  D.  Imrie. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did.  you  give  us  the  date  of  the  second  shipment 
of  the  100  grams,  and  if  not,  will  you  give  it  to  us  now  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  February  7,  1945,  from  San  Francisco  to  us,  and 
February  14,  from  us  to  Washington,  both  times  by  railway  express. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  you  ever  advised  that  heavy  water  was  con- 
sidered as  a  strategic  material  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No,  sir.  We  always  inquired  from  WPB,  and  we 
did  in  this  case,  too,  but  I  didn't  make  a  record  of  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  have  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Walter  ? 

Mr.  Walter.  No. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Velde? 

Mr.  Velde.  You  mentioned  in  one  of  your  memoranda  that  the  Soviet 
Government  could  use  another  10  or  15  tons  of  uranium  oxide? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  Would  that  indicate  to  you  they  had  already  received 
10  or  15  tons? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  That  they  were  looking  for  them. 

Mr.  Velde.  That  they  were  looking  for  10  or  15  tons? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  But  it  would  not  be  another  10  or  15  tons  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Vei.de.  In  any  of  your  contacts  with  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission,  were  you  informed  as  to  the  use  to  which  these  uranium 
materials  and  heavy  water  were  going  to  be  put  by  the  Russians? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Velde,  Did  you  have  any  knowledge  of  j^our  own  as  to  what  the 
uranium  products  were  being  used  for  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No.     I  am  not  a  chemist. 

(Witness  confers  with  his  counsel.) 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Uranium,  yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  know  what  the  uranium  was  to  be  used  for  by 
the  Russians  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes.     They  made  a  statement. 

Mr.  Velde.  That  is  what  I  asked  you.  Did  they  tell  you  they  were 
going  to  use  it  for  a  certain  purpose  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  What  was  that  purpose? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  We  got  a  declaration  from  them  that  says 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  let  me  read  it? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  Yes. 


1038  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  is  a  copy  of  a  statement  by  the  Soviet  Pur- 
chasing Commission : 

To  Whom  It  May  Concern: 

In  reference  to  our  order,  given  on  April  2,  1943,  Chematar,  Inc.,  40  Exchange 
Place,  New  York,  N.  Y.,  we  herewith  declare  that  the  500  pounds  uranouranic 
oxide,  99.5  percent  pure  (green  oxide),  will  be  used  for  making  of  ferrouranium 
compounds,  which  in  turn  will  be  used  in  the  production  of  armaments,  and  that 
the  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  (uranyl)  will  be  used  for  medical  purposes 
directly  connected  with  the  present  war,  and  that  thus  neither  compound  is  used 
for  any  purpose  which  would  be  contradictory  to  the  restrictions  imposed  by  War 
Production  Board  Conservation  Order  M-2S5  on  the  use  of  uranium  or  uranium 
compounds. 

The  Government  Purchasing  Commission  of  the 

Soviet  Union  in  the  U.  S.  A. 
Washington,  D.  C,  April  19^3. 

Mr,  Velde.  Was  the  word  "armaments"  mentioned  in  there? 
Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes — 

will  be  used  for  making  of  ferrouranium  compounds,  which  in  turn  will  be  used  in 
the  production  of  armaments. 

I  desire  to  offer  this  copy  of  statement  and  attached  copy  of  letter 
of  April  5, 1943,  from  Chematar,  Inc.,  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Com- 
mission, in  evidence,  and  ask  that  they  be  marked  "Exhibit  Rosen- 
berg 16." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  received. 

(The  copies  of  documents  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit 
Kosenberg  16,"  are  hereinafter  incorporated  in  the  record.)  -"^ 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  or  your  company  have  a  contract  to  furnish  all 
your  uranium  output  to  the  Manhattan  District? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No  ;  we  didn't  even  know  of  them. 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  know  of  any  contract  under  which  any  uranium 
company  had  to  furnish  all  its  uranium  output  to  the  Manhattan 
project? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No.  ' 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  have  any  knowledge  of  any  contract  of  your 
own  that  provided  for  exclusive  right  to  all  that  you  could  produce? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  With  anybody? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  I  think,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  is  contrary  to  what  was 
testified  this  morning. 

Mr.  Wood.  As  I  understand,  Mr.  Rosenberg's  firm  was  not  a  pro- 
ducer.   Did  your  company  ever  produce  any  of  this  material? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No  ;  we  were  only  brokers. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  bought  this  material  from  Chematar,  Inc.  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No  ;  we  are  Chematar,  Inc. 

Mr.  Velde.  And  the  only  materials  you  were  able  to  get  for  the 
^Russians  were  obtained  from  whom  ? 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  The  first  shipment  from  the  Shattuck  Co.  in  Den- 
Ter,  and  the  second  shipment  from  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium 
Corp.  of  New  York. 

Mr.  Velde.  And  you  did  not  know  that  either  of  those  companies 
had  a  contract  to  furnish  all  their  uranium  output  exclusively  to  the 
Manhattan  District? 


*«  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1039 

Mr.  Rosenberg.  No. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  further  questions? 

Mr.  WoLKiSEK.  Will  you  permit  my  client  to  read  a  short  state- 
ment ? 

Mr.  Wood.  Would  you  mind  putting  it  in  the  record,  because  we  are 
pressed  for  time.    We  will  be  glad  to  accept  it  for  the  record. 

(The  statement  referred  to  is  as  follows :) 

Statement  of  Hermann  Rosenberg,  Vice  President,  Chematar,  Inc., 

New  York  City 

It  has  been  a  privilege  to  appear  and  testify  before  this  committee.  My  com- 
pany and  I  are  glad  to  cooperate  in  any  way  possible  to  assist  the  committee  in 
its  work  by  giving  you  all  information  regarding  these  deals  which  to  us  were 
at  the  time  very  minor  routine  transactions,  involving  a  profit  of  a  few  hundred 
dollars. 

Following  my  previous  appearance  at  an  executive  session  in  June  1948,  which 
received  some  publicity  in  December  1JM9,  we  were  pleased  to  see  that  the 
press  generally  reported  our  business  transactions  correctly.  However,  we  were 
somewhat  disturbed  by  the  description  of  one  columnist  who  labeled  Chematar, 
Inc.,  as  "the  ofhcial  purchasing  agent  of  the  Soviet  Government."  That  is  of 
course  not  true.  Such  implications  may  well  be  harmful  to  our  company  and 
our  business  associates. 

The  officials  of  our  company  are  only  businessmen.  We  are  for  the  most  part 
ciitzens  of  the  United  States  by  naturalization,  and  are  sensitive  to  any  implica- 
tions that  might  cast  doubt  upon  oiu*  loyalty  and  devotion  to  our  country. 

It  is  this  connection  that  we  appreciate  this  opportunity  to  state  a  few 
facts  and  figures  showing  the  purely  incidental  nature  of  our  involvement  in 
this  matter. 

We  have  managed  to  build  up  a  substantial  business  in  our  special  field  of  in- 
dustrial chemicals,  and  believe  our  operations  are  wholly  beneficial  to  the  econ- 
omy of  the  United  States.  We  deal  in  thoiisands  of  individual  products  but  are 
particularly  active  in  handling  about  20  items,  principally,  coal-tar  products, 
with  a  30-year  experience  in  this  field. 

Our  standing  in  the  industrial  chemical  field  is  well  established  and  may  be 
readily  checked  by  reference  to  any  of  the  large  American  chemical  manufac- 
turing companies  with  which  we  deal. 

During  the  war  years  our  business  was  about  SO  percent  with  commercial 
buyers  mostly  in  Latin  America  and  20  percent  with  military  procurement  au- 
thorities of  the  United  States  and  our  allies.  Our  total  sales  from  1942  to  1945 
were  approximately  $700,000,  of  which  $17,500  were  sales  to  the  Soviet  Purchas- 
ing Commission.  They  represented  about  2%  percent  of  our  total  business  during 
the  war  years.  In  1946  our  total  deliveries  to  Russian  purchasing  authorities 
amoxmted  to  $450.  This  was  the  balance  of  two  old  orders.  We  have  made  no 
sales  to  Russia  since  1946.  Our  annual  business  since  the  war  has  amounted  to 
several  million  dollars. 

As  for  the  particular  Russian  orders  of  interest  to  the  committee,  they  were 
for  us  routine  orders,  calling  for  just  other  common  chemicals  among  the  ap- 
proxinyately  150  different  chemicals  sold  by  us  in  small  lots  to  the  Russians, 
aggregating  the  aforesaid  $17,500. 

No  pressure  from  any  source  was  used,  or  indeed  necessary,  to  induce  my 
company  to  fill  these  routine  orders  from  the  Russian  Government  out  of  readily 
obtainable  supplies,  in  strict  compliance  with  all  applicable  regulations,  at  a 
time  when  we  were  rushing  all  available  supplies  to  our  then  ally. 

On  the  basis  of  this  record  we  strongly  believe  there  should  be  no  reflection  upon 
the  business  conduct  of  our  company  or  its  individual  officers  and  that  our  ab- 
solute loyalty  and  complete  support  of  our  Government  both  during  peace  and 
war  should  be  recognized  and  acknowledged. 

May  I  thank  you  for  your  courtesy  in  listening, 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  My  client  has  been  here  twice.  He  was  here  in  June 
1948.  We  have  submitted  all  the  information,  and  he  wanted  to  say  it 
was  a  pleasure  to  have  been  here ;  that  he  is  just  a  businessman,  not 
interested  in  politics,  and  has  no  particular  connectionwith  the  Rus- 
sian Government.    The  statement  made  by  one  columnist  that  Chem- 


1040  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

atar,  Inc.,  was  "the  official  purchasing  agent  of  the  Soviet  Govern- 
ment" is  incorrect,  and  is  not  good  pubhcity. 

Mr.  Wood,  Let  us  hope  it  will  not  be  necessary  to  call  him  back 
again. 

Mr.  WoLKisER.  I  hope  there  is  no  reflection  on  our  company  in  any 
way.  Mr.  Rosenberg,  as  a  naturalized  citizen,  is  particularly  sensi- 
tive to  any  suggestion  of  lack  of  loyalty. 

Mr.  Wood.  I  think  I  speak  the  sentiment  of  the  committee  when 
I  say  that  we  understand  your  client  is  engaged  in  the  business  of 
buying  and  selling. 

Mr.  WoLKiSER.  Thank  you  very  much  for  your  courtesy. 

Mr.  Wood,  The  committee  will  stand  adjourned  until  10  o'clock 
tomorrow  morning. 

(Thereupon,  an  adjournment  was  taken  until  Wednesday,  January 
25, 1950,  at  10  a.  m.). 


HEAEINGS  KEGAKDING  SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATERIAL 
TO  THE  SOVIET  UNION  DURING  WORLD  WAR  II 


wednesday,  january  25,  1950 

United  States  House  of  Representatives, 

Subcommittee  or  the  Committee 

ON  Un-American  Activities, 

Washington^  D.  C. 

public  hearing 

A  Subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  met, 
pursuant  to  call,  at  10 :  30  a.  m.  in  room  226,  Old  House  Office  Building 
Hon.  John  S.  Wood,  chairman,  presiding. 

Committee  members  present :  Representatives  John  S.  Wood,  Fran- 
cis E.  Walter,  Burr  P.  Harrison  (arriving  as  indicated),  Harold  H. 
Velde,  and  Bernard  W.  Kearney. 

Staff  members  present :  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  counsel ;  Louis  J. 
Russell,  senior  investigator ;  Courtney  Owens,  investigator ;  John  W. 
Carrington,  clerk;  Benjamin  Mandel,  director  of  research;  and  A.  S. 
Poore,  editor. 

Mr.  Wood.  For  the  purpose  of  this  hearing  today  a  subcommittee 
has  been  appointed  consisting  of  Messrs.  Walter,  Velde,  Kearney,  and 
Wood.    They  are  all  present. 

Are  you  ready  to  go  forward,  Mr.  Counsel  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  state  at  this  time  that  within  the 
past  10  minutes  I  have  had  a  long-distance  telephone  call  and  convers- 
ation with  officials  in  the  Atomic  Energy  Commission  office  in  New 
York  regarding  the  contract  between  the  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  and  the  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  dated  March  27, 
1943,  and  I  learned  as  a  result  of  that  call  that  the  contract  was  prob- 
ably not  executed  and  delivered  until  a  date  at  least  subsequent  to 
May  12,  1943.  The  exact  facts  and  circumstances  are  being  investi- 
gated, and  the  full  facts  regarding  that  will  be  presented  to  the  com- 
mittee as  soon  as  they  can  be  obtained  and  the  necessary  declassifica- 
tion is  made  of  the  documents  w-hich  would  prove  that. 

Mr.  Walter.  In  other  words,  there  was  no  contract  for  the  exclu- 
sive right  to  this  material  before  the  export  license  was  issued? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  agreement  dated  March  27,  1943,  could  not 
have  become  effective  as  a  legal  document  before  its  execution  and 
delivery.  The  order  in  question  was  placed  on  May  1,  1943,  though 
the  date  of  shipment  may  have  been  after  the  effective  date  of  this 
agreement,  but  those  facts  will  have  to  be  determined.  I  am  informed 
the  actual  shipping  date  of  the  uranium  may  have  been  as  late  as 

1041 

99334—50 10 


1042  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

June,  but  those  facts  are  being  investigated,  and  the  exact  date  of 
shipment  I  think  will  appear  in  the  testimony  of  the  next  witness. 

Mr.  Owens. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  give  this  sub- 
committee shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  COURTNEY  E.  OWENS 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  your  full  name,  please  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Courtney  E.  Owens. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  you  an  investigator  of  the  Committee  on  Un- 
American  Activities? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes,  sir. 

(Representative  Harrison  enters  the  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Owens,  considerable  testimony  has  been  intro- 
duced regarding  the  issuance  of  export  licenses  for  shipment  of 
uranium  to  Russia  by  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  the  approval 
by  Lend-Lease  of  the  granting  of  such  licenses,  and  compliance  with 
Order  M-285  of  the  War  Production  Board.  In  the  course  of  your  in- 
vestigation, did  you  also  find  that  the  United  States  Army  for  a  period 
of  time  acted  as  a  procurement  agency  for  the  purchase  of  chemicals 
by  the  Soviet  Union  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes,  sir.  The  Office  of  Lend-Lease  Administration, 
in  a  letter  signed  by  John  M.  Hazard,  chief  liaison  officer.  Section  of 
Soviet  Supply,  under  date  of  June  16,  1942,  addressed  to  Col.  John  B. 
Franks,  International  Division,  stated  that  under  the  terms  of  the  pro- 
posed second  protocol,  which  had  oeen  delivered  to  the  Soviet  Govern- 
ment for  consideration  and  acceptance,  a  considerable  quantity  of 
chemicals  had  been  offered;  that  during  the  past  9  months  the  War 
Department  had  served  as  the  procurement  agency  for  chemicals  pur- 
chased under  the  first  Moscow  protocol ;  that  it  was  anticipated  that 
the  War  Department  would  continue  to  purchase  chemicals  to  meet 
Soviet  requirements;  and  it  was  requested  that  preparations  be  made 
to  purchase  chemicals  in  compliance  with  the  terms  of  the  proposed 
second  protocol. 

Mr.  Ta\^enner.  Do  you  have  a  photostatic  copy  of  that  letter  which 
you  obtained  from  the  Army? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  the  photostatic  copy  of  the  letter 
from  Mr.  Hazard  in  evidence,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit 
Owens  1." 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  it  will  be  admitted. 

(The  photostat  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Owens 
1,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Owens,  did  you  ascertain  that  the  Russian  Gov- 
ernment made  requisition  for  uranium  compounds  in  the  early  part  of 
1943,  to  the  Chemical  Warfare  Service  of  the  Army? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes,  sir.  Ultimately  it  reached  the  Chemical  Warfare 
Service.  On  March  5,  1943,  Capt.  W.  D.  Kavanaugh,  CWS,  Inter- 
national Branch,  Operations  Division,  wrote  a  letter  to  N.  S.  Fomichev, 

21  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1043 

Soviet  Government  Purchasing  Commission,  stating  tliat  its  procure- 
ment office  had  been  endeavoring  to  find  sources  of  supply  for  uranium 
nitrate  and  uranium  chloride  in  connection  with  Soviet  requisition 
R-12045,  and  advised  that  there  is  no  known  producer  of  uranium 
chloride.  The  letter  further  stated  that  one  producer  had  about  200 
pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  and  had  on  hand  sufficient  concentrate  to 
yield  about  8,000  pounds  at  the  rate  of  approximately  4,000  pounds  per 
month,  and  in  addition  had  a  considerable  stock  of  ore  on  which  they 
could  draw  for  future  production.  The  letter  further  advised  that 
it  would  be  necessary  to  have  the  War  Production  Board  allocate 
whatever  material  might  be  authorized  for  procurement,  inasmuch  as 
General  Preference  Order  M-285  controlled  the  distribution  of 
uranium  compounds. 

This  was  in  March  of  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  in  evidence  photostatic  copy  of 
the  letter  from  Captain  Kavanaugh  just  referred  to,  and  request  that 
it  be  marked  '^Exhibit  Owens  2." 
Mr.  Wood.  Let  it  be  admitted. 

(The  photostat  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Owens 
2,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  disposition  was  finally  made  by  the  Army  of 
requisition  E-12045? 

Mr.  Owens.  By  letter  of  March  9, 1943,  Col.  John  B.  Franks,  Gen- 
eral Staff  Corps,  birector.  International  Division,  returned  to  General 
Belyaev,  chairman,  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission,  Soviet  requisition 
11-12045,  dated  February  4,  1943,  and  advised  him  that  it  would  be  im- 
possible to  make  available  either  uranium  nitrate  or  uranium  chloride. 
The  Soviets  ^ere  further  advised  in  this  letter  that  the  production  of 
both  of  these  items  was  such  that  no  guaranty  whatsoever  could  be 
given  as  to  any  date  in  the  future  when  the  material  could  be  made 
available,  even  in  smal  quantities,  and  it  was  for  this  reason  alone 
that  the  requisition  was  being  returned  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  in  evidence  photostatic  copy  of  the 
letter  dated  March  9,  1943,  from  Col.  John  B.  Franks,  and  request 
that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Owens  3." 
Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  photostat  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Owens 
3,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Oavens.  It  might  be  well  to  note  that  this  requisition,  of  which 
we  have  a  copy,  called  for  8  tons  of  uranium  nitrate  and  8  tons  of 
uranium  oxide. 
Mr.  Wood.  You  say  that  is  revealed  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes,  "by  the  requisition  which  will  be  placed  in  the 
lecord  at  a  later  date. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  this  requisition  renewed? 
Mr.  Owens.  Yes;  it  was  renewed  and  again  denied.  On  April  6, 
1943,  Victor  V.  Taylor,  colonel,  Adjutant  General's  Department 
Deputy  Director,  International  Division,  addressed  a  letter  to  Maj. 
Gen.  A.  I.  Belyaev,  the  same  gentleman  I  referred  to  in  my  answer  to 
the  last  question,  chairman  of  the  Government  Purchasing  Com- 

**  See  appendix. 
^  See  appendix. 


1044  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

mission  of  the  Soviet  Union  in  the  United  States  of  America,  marked 
"Attention :  Captain  I.  Stepanov,"  in  which  he  acknowledged  receipt 
of  a  letter  of  April  3,  1943,  in  reference  to  a  request  to  present  to 
the  JNIunitions  Assignments  Committee  for  approval  of  prompt  de- 
livery of  8  tons  of  both  uranium  nitrate  and  urano-uranic  oxide.  The 
Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  was  likewise  advised  in  this  letter 
that  it  was  possible  to  obtain  this  material  for  assigmnent  to  the 
Soviet  Union  at  that  time. 

The  letter  of  April  3,  1943,  mentioned,  from  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission,  is  in  the  files  of  the  Atomic  Energy  Commission,  and 
there  is  a  memorandum  addressed  to  us  from  the  War  Department. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  the  photostatic  copy  of  letter 
from  Colonel  Taylor,  dated  April  6,  1943,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked 
"Exhibit  Owens  4." 

Mr,  Wood.  Let  it  be  adinitted. 

(The  photostat  of  letter  above  referred  to  marked  "Exhibit  Owens 
4,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record.)  -* 

Mr.  Ta^-exner.  Mr.  Owens,  did  your  investigation  disclose  that  the 
Russians  endeavored  to  appeal  to  higher  authority  for  favorable  action 
on  their  request  for  8  tons  of  uranium  nitrate  and  8  tons  of  urano- 
uranic  oxide  ? 

Mr.  0"\VENS.  Yes.  A  letter  was  addressed  by  Lt.  Gen.  L.  (t.  Rudenko, 
identified  as  chairman  of  the  Government  Purchasing  Commission 
of  the  Soviet  Union,  under  date  of  March  31,  1944,  to  the  Honorable 
Henry  L.  Stimson,  Secretary  of  War,  in  which  he  stated  that  his 
country  was  in  most  urgent  need  of  the  following  materials  for  its 
war  industry : 

1.  8  tons  of  uranium  nitrate ; 

2.  8  tons  of  urano-uranic  oxide; 

3.  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal. 
The  letter  also  states  that : 

In  194.S  we  exerted  every  effort  to  obtain  these  materials  through  the  Inter- 
national Division  of  the  War  Department,  which  has  jurisdiction  over  assign- 
ments of  such  items.  However,  we  were  not  successful  in  obtaining  these 
materials. 

I  would  therefore  deeply  appreciate  your  giving  this  requirement  your  con- 
sideration with  a  view  toward  ascertaining  the  possibility  of  supplying  these 
materials  to  us  from  the  stocks  of  the  War  Department. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  in  evidence  at  this  time  a  photo- 
static copy  of  the  letter  of  Lieutenant  General  Rudenko,  bearing  date 
March  31,  1944,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Owens  5." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  photostat  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Owens 
5,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record. )  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  hand  you  a  photostatic  copy  of  a  memorandum 
prepared  by  Col.  J.  W.  Boone,  acting  director,  International  Divi- 
sion, bearing  date  April  7, 1944,  dealing  with  the  subject  of  the  Soviet 
request  for  uranium.    Will  you  please  read  it  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  This  is  a  War  Department  summary  sheet  dated  April 
7, 1944 : 

1.  Representatives  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  requested  alloca- 
tion of  several  forms  of  uranium  in  early  1943,  and  it  is  understood  that  they 


**  See  appendix. 
*"  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1045 

also  requested  it  from  the  Foreign  Economic  Administration.  The  War  De- 
partment turfled  down  the  request  in  a  letter  of  April  6,  1943,  from  the  deputy 
director,  International  Division,  Headquarters  A.  S.  F. 

2.  This  problem  involves  important  considerations  not  only  of  supply  but  of 
policy.  For  this  reason  an  interim  reply  is  necessary  in  order  to  allow  ample 
time  for  thorough  consideration. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  the  photostatic  copy  of  memo- 
randum in  evidence,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Owens  6." 

Mr,  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  photostat  of  memorandum  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit 
Owens  6,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Walter.  May  I  ask  a  question  at  this  point,  Mr.  Chairman? 

Mr.  Wood.  Yes.    Mr.  Walter. 

Mr.  Walter.  During  the  course  of  your  investigation,  did  you  find 
that  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Agency  had  requested  licenses  for  ma- 
terials other  than  the  materials  you  have  discussed  today  ?  - 

Mr.  Owens.  This  does  not  deal,  Congressman,  with  a  request  for 
licenses  for  export.  This  is  a  requisition  for  supplying  it.  The  is- 
suance of  licenses  would  come  after  that. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  understand.  Did  your  investigation  disclose  that 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Agency  requested  that  they  be  supplied  with 
materials  other  than  those  materials  that  were  refused  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  were  those  materials  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  We  have  quite  a  long  list.  Did  you  say  "and  were 
refused"  ? 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes. 

Mr.  Owens.  We  were  supplied  with  a  long  list  of  chemicals  they 
requested  which  were  not  refused.     The  uranium  was  refused. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  action  was  taken  regarding  the  information 
contained  in  the  summary  just  read  by  you  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  On  the  7th  day  of  April  1944,  Col.  J.  W.  Boone,  Gen- 
eral Staff  Corps,  Acting  Director,  International  Division,  acting  for 
the  commanding  general,  addressed  a  memorandum  to  the  Chief  of 
Engineers,  marked  "Attention :  Maj.  Gen.  L.  R.  Groves,"  which  memo- 
randum is  as  follows : 

7  April  1944. 
Memorandum  for  the  Chief  of  Engineers  (attention :  Maj.  Gen.  L.  R.  Groves). 
Subject :  Uranium  requested  by  the  U.  S.  S.  R. 

1.  Inclosed  is  a  copy  of  a  letter  received  from  the  Soviet  Govei-nment  Pur- 
chasing Commission  on  the  above  subject,  together  with  a  copy  of  a  reply  pre- 
pared for  the  signature  of  the  Secretary  of  War. 

2.  It  is  requested  that  information  as  to  the  supply  of  various  forms  of  uranium 
and  your  recommendations  as  to  the  policy  involved  be  submitted  to  this  office 
not  later  than  April  12,  1944,  in  order  that  materials  involved  can  be  made 
available. 

Beneath  this  memorandum  of  request  for  information,  there  appears 
a  memorandum  for  the  record  only.  This  memorandum  for  the  record 
only  reads  as  follows : 

For  record  only : 

1.  A  conference  of  representatives  of  this  Division  and  of  the  Production  Divi- 
sion with  Major  General  Groves  on  April  7  revealed  that  General  Groves  wishes 
to  handle  this  matter  in  its  entirety  from  here  on,  since  the  material  requested 
is  involved  in  the  Manhattan  project.     Information  on  supply  could  not  be  ob- 


^  See  appendix. 


1046  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

tained  from  the  Chemical  Warfare  Service  of  the  War  Production  Board  be- 
cause all  details  are  in  the  hands  of  the  Chief  of  Engineers. 

2.  It  is  believed  that  if  supply  is  available  a  careful  study  be  made  of  the- 
advisability  of  making  a  small  allocation,  instead  of  training  down  the  request  in 
toto,  as  was  done  last  year.  Since  the  material  itself  is  apparently  not  secret, 
such  a  policy  might  better  serve  United  States  interests  and  might  develop  the 
possibility  of  collaboration  or  receipt  of  information  which  are  now  ruled  out. 
This  Division  will  seek  to  determine  more  about  the  intended  use  by  the  Soviets, 
which  last  j^ear  was  indicated  as  "the  preparation  of  ferro-uranium  compounds 
which  in  turn  will  be  used  in  the  production  of  high  quality  steel  for  armaments." 

Mr.  Walter.  Does  the  memorandum  disclose  who  were  present  at 
that  conference? 

Mr.  Owens.  No.  The  memorandum  is  addressed  to  the  Chief  of 
Engineers,  attention  General  Groves.  It  implies  General  Groves  was 
there,  and  that  is  the  only  name  positively  identified  as  having  been 
there. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  the  memorandum  just  read,  bear- 
ing date  April  7,  1944,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Exhibit  Owens  7." 

ilr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 

(The  photostat  of  memorandum  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit 
Owens  7,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  final  action  taken  by  the  Secretary 
of  War,  as  far  as  the  records  disclose  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  On  April  17,  1944,  the  Secretary  of  War  addressed  a 
letter  to  Lt.  Gen.  L.  G.  Rudenko,  chairman  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union  in  the  United  States  of  America, 
which  reads  as  follows : 

The  letter  is  on  the  stationery  of  the  War  Department,  Washington, 
April  17, 1944,  addressed  to  Lt.  Gen.  L.  G.  Rudenko : 

Dear  General  Kudenko.  I  regret  that  we  find  ourselves  unable  to  comply  with 
the  request  contained  in  your  letter  of  March  31  for  certain  uranium  compounds. 

We  have  made  a  careful  review  of  the  situation  and  this  review  indicates 
that  our  supply  of  this  material  is  not  sufficient  for  us  to  comply  with  your 
request. 

I  assure  you  that  I  will  remember  your  need  and  will  inform  you  of  any 
change  in  the  situation. 
Sincerely  yours, 


Secretary  of  War. 

Mr.  Taa^nner.  I  offer  that  letter  in  evidence  and  ask  that  it  be 
marked  "Exhibit  Owens  8." 

My.  Wood.  Let  it  be  admitted. 

(The  photostat  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Exhibit  Owens 
8,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Mr.  Owens,  in  the  course  of  your  investigation  of  the 
shipments  of  uranium  and  heavy  water  to  Russia  during  the  war  years, 
did  you  find  that  the  United  States  Air  Force  had  conducted  an  in- 
vestigation in  December  of  1949,  and  January  1950,  and  made  a  re- 
port of  its  findings  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes,  sir.  Such  a  rej^ort  of  their  investigation  was 
made,  and  the  committee  has  been  given  access  to  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  propose,  Mr.  Chairman,  at  a  later  date  during  the 
hearings,  to  file  this  report  as  an  exhibit,  but  for  the  present  I  would 
like  to  ask  the  witness  several  specific  questions  relating  to  the  ship- 
ments of  uranium  and  heavy  water. 

^  See  appendix. 
2«  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1047 

Mr.  Wood.  As  revealed  by  the  report  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  As  revealed  by  the  report. 

Mr.  Wood.  Very  well. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  facts,  Mr.  Owens,  were  ascertained  relating 
to  the  record  of  shipment  of  uraninm  from  Denver,  Colo.,  to  Russia? 

Mr.  Owens.  I  might  state  that  this  information  is  the  result  of  an 
exhaustive  search  on  the  part  of  the  Air  Force  of  its  available  files  in 
Kansas  City,  Mo.,  which  are  the  so-called  dead  files.  This  search  was 
made  by  them.  In  this  search  there  was  disclosed  a  report  of  Russian 
freight  shipments  for  the  year  ending  December  31, 1943,  which  reflects 
that  there  was  attached  to  UN  shipping  ticket  1056,  elated  April  3, 
1943,  freight  bill  dated  April  2,  1943,  consigning  four  boxes  of  chem- 
icals, weighing  691  pounds,  to  Col.  A.'N.  Kotikov,  resident  represent- 
ative of  the  Soviet  Government  Purchasing  Commission  of  the  Soviet 
Union  in  the  United  States,  Air  Service  Department  of  the  Air  Trans- 
port Command,  Gore  Field,  Great  Falls,  Mont.  The  freight  bill  num- 
bered 201 10  J  was  made  out  in  the  name  of  the  Great  Northern  Railway 
Co.,  and  indicated  that  the  chemicals  were  waybilled  from  Denver, 
Colo.,  on  March  23,  1943,  and  that  the  name  of  the  shipper  was  Chem- 
atar.  Inc.,  40  Highland  Place,  New  York  City.  Attached  to  the  freight 
bill  was  a  letter  dated  March  29,  1943,  from  Hermann  Rosenberg  of 
Chematar,  Inc.,  addressed  to  Colonel  Kotikov,  enclosing  the  original 
railway  bill  of  lading,  covering  200  pounds  of  urano-uranic  oxide  and 
220  pounds  of  nitrouranyl  shipped  from  Denver,  Colo. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  read  the  letter  written  by  Mr.  Rosenberg 
just  referred  to  by  you  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  That  is  in  the  report,  Mr.  Tavenner. 

Mr.  Walter.  As  I  understand  it,  the  letter  of  Mr.  Rosenberg  was 
attached  to  the  documents  that  went  to  Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Owens.  Attached  to  the  freight  bill. 

Mr.  Walter.  That  letter  disclosed  what  the  contents  of  these  boxes 
were  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Walter.  That  letter  went  to  the  military  at  Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes,  sir.  It  was  attached  to  the  freight  bill  as  a  part 
of  the  shipment. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  the  records  disclose  that  the  Russians  received 
this  shipment  of  uranium? 

Mr.  Oa^t:ns.  Yes,  sir.  A  tally  sheet  bearing  date  April  5, 1943,  was 
located,  upon  which  is  endorsed  in  Russian  tlie  letters  "VS"  acknowl- 
edging the  receipt  of  several  items,  including  four  boxes  of  chemicals, 
bearing  shipping  ticket  No.  US-1056 ;  total  weight,  691  pounds.  The 
signed  receipt  bore  on  the  bottom  the  signature  of  Phillip  Silver,  first 
lieutenant.  Air  Corps,  who  has  been  identified  as  a  supply  officer,  sta- 
tioned at  Ladd  Field,  Fairbanks,  Alaska.  Lieutenant  Silver's  signa- 
ture appeared  beneath  the  Russian  initials. 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  the  invoices  always  disclose  what  the  contents  of 
these  cases  were  ? 

Mv.  Owens.  To  my  recollection  this  is  the  only  case  where  a 
letter  accompanied  the  shipment.  I  may  be  wrong,  but  that  is  my 
recollection. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  the  investigation  disclose  that  records  exist  of 
a  shipment  of  uranium  originating  at  Port  Hope,  Ontario,  and,  if  so, 
will  you  please  give  the  pertinent  facts  relating  thereto  ? 


1048  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Harrison.  This  is  the  shipment  of  1,000  pounds  that  Mr.  Rosen- 
berg described  yesterday  as  the  Shattuck  shipment? 

Mr,  Tavenner.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Owens.  An  examination  of  the  report  of  Russian  air  freight 
shipments  for  19-13  reflects  that  on  June  10,  1943,  15  boxes  of  black 
uranium  oxide  and  uranium  nitrate,  being  shipping  ticket  No.  UN- 
1369,  were  received  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  and  dispatched  on  the  same 
day.  This  was  an  in-transit  shipment.  The  shipping  ticket  reflected 
an  order  No.  21-73/C43058,  and  the  words  "Rasnoimport,  soli  urano, 
U.  S.  S.  R.,  trans.  No.  66739."  The  words  "soli  urano"  have  been 
ascertained  to  mean  uranium  salts.  The  total  weight  of  the  shipment 
was  1,585  pounds.  Airway  bills  465685  and  465686  dated  as  received 
June  10, 1943,  consisted  of  five  boxes  of  uranium  nitrate,  weighing  500 
pounds  each.  Airway  bill  465687,  dated  as  received  June  10,  1943, 
consisted  of  four  boxes  of  uranium  oxide,  weighing  468  pounds.  Air- 
way bill  465688,  dated  as  received  June  10,  1943,  was  for  one  box  black 
uranium  oxide,  total  weight,  117  pounds.  All  of  the  airway  bills  re- 
ferred to  contained  reference  to  shipping  ticket  UN-1369,  order  No. 
21-73/C43058.  Attached  to  the  above-described  documents  was  a 
freight  bill  of  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee,  St.  Paul  &  Pacific  Railway,  No. 
5223,  which  consigned  to  Col.  A.  N.  Kotikoy,  resident  representative  of 
the  Soviet  Government  Purchasing  Commission,  Air  Service  Depot  of 
the  Air  Service  Command,  Gore  Field,  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  5  cases  of 
black  uranium  oxide,  and  10  cases  of  uranium  nitrate,  for  a  total 
weight  of  1,585  pounds,  waybilled  from  4558  Port  Hope,  Ontario,  on 
May  21,  1943,  by  means  of  waybill  1864  and  shipped  from  El  Dorado 
Mines,  Ltd.,  under  arms  export  permit  No.  OF1666. 

Mr.  Walter.  So  that  each  of  these  shipments  was  identified  as  con- 
taining uranium.    There  was  no  attempt  to  conceal  the  contents  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  The  airway  bills  which  accompanied  them  identified 
them  as  containing  uranium  nitrate  and  oxide ;  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  your  investigation  disclose  the  existence  of  a 
record  acknowledging  receipt  of  this  shipment  by  a  Russian  repre- 
sentative ? 

Mr.  Owens.  The  Air  Force  states  that  an  examination  of  the  retired 
files  from  Great  Falls  failed  to  reflect  any  signed  receipts  disclosing 
positive  acknowledgement  of  these  shipments  by  the  Russians. 

Mr.  Walter.  All  of  these  shipments  were  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  None  were  in  1944? 

Mr.  O^VENS.  Only  the  two  we  have  covered  so  far. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  the  investigation  disclose  that  records  exist  of  a 
shipment  of  heavy  water  to  the  Russians  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes,  sir.  An  examination  of  Russian  air  freight  ship- 
ments for  1943  reflects  the  existence  of  shipping  ticket  UN  3199, 
dated  November  29,  1943,  for  one  case  of  1,000  grams  of  heavy  water, 
weighing  41  pounds,  marked  for  "Rasnoimport,  U.  S.  S.  R.,  Moscow, 
U-1,  Ruybjshova-22,  order  No.  21-73/C43090,  transportation  66771, 
heavy  water,  handle  with  care.  Department  of  Commerce,  No.  8398.98, 
case  No.  W-50-308." 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  your  investigation  disclose  the  shipment  of  any 
large  bottles  of  heavy  water  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  No,  sir. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1049 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  your  inrestigation  disclose  the  shipment  of  any 
large  bottles  of  other  substances? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  were  they? 

INIr.  Owens.  Carboys  of  sulfuric  acid  were  shipped  from  Great 
Falls,  Mont. 

Mr,  Walter.  Were  they  labeled  "Sulphuric  acid"? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Have  you  been  able  to  determine  yet  the  significance 
of  the  appearance  of  the  Department  of  Commerce  No.  8398.98 
endorsement  on  the  shipping  instructions  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  No,  sir.  We  have  made  several  inquiries  in  Washing- 
ton and  have  been  unable  to  ascertain  the  meaning  of  the  Department 
of  Conunerce  number  appearing  on  this  shipment. 

Mr.  Harrison.  That  was  on  the  heavy  water  shipment? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes. 

I\Ir.  Harrison.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  ask  a  question  at  this  point 
about  this  shipment  of  1,000  pounds  of  uranium  that  we  were  on 
a  minute  ago? 

Mr.  Wood.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Have  you  got  any  information  from  your  investi- 
gation as  to  how  the  shippers,  Canadian  Radium  &  Uranium  Corp., 
were  able  to  get  an  amendment  of  that  shipping  authorization,  be- 
cause as  I  understand.  General  Groves  testified  that  he  issued  an  order 
allowing  them  to  purchase  this,  for  the  purpose  of  discovering  whether 
or  not  they  could  find  it  in  this  country;  then  I  understood  from  Mr, 
Rosenberg  yesterday  that  that  paper  was  amended  so  as  to  enable 
them  to  ship  this  1,000  pounds  out  that  they  got  from  the  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp.,  and  I  would  like  to  know  if  you  know 
how  that  was  done  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Here  is  what  we  know  on  the  issuance  of  the  export 
license :  We  know  it  was  turned  down  on  xlpril  14,  1943.  We  know 
another  request  was  made  and,  as  General  Groves  stated,  they  sub- 
sequently agreed  to  the  issuance  of  the  license  to  see  if  the  material 
could  be  found  in  this  country.  That  license  was  issued  April  23, 
1943,  and  delivered  on  April  20,  1943,  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Com- 
mission in  Washington.  Mr.  Fomichev  called  Mr.  Rosenberg  and  told 
him  he  had  the  license,  and  Mr.  Rosenberg  advised  him  Shattuck  had 
withdrawn  the  offer,  and  he  had  another  supplier,  but  the  license 
would  have  to  be  amended.  On  April  29,  1943,  he  got  back  the  license, 
amended  as  to  commodity  and  price. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  got  it  back  ? 

Mr.  Owens,  Mr.  Fomichev,  Mr,  Rosenberg  called  Canadian 
Radium  &  Uranium  Corp,  and  said  that  license  1643180  had  been 
amended. 

Mr,  Harrison,  You  don't  know  who  amended  it  ? 

Mr,  O^VENS,  We  know  it  was  amended  by  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare. 

Mr,  Harrison,  You  don't  know  what  official  or  officials  did  it? 

Mr.  Owens.  No.  The  files  of  Lend-Lease  and  the  Board  of  Eco- 
nomic Warfare  have  not  been  made  available  to  us.  We  have  made  a 
request  for  them, 

Mr,  Harrison,  To  whom  did  you  make  the  request  ? 


1050  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Owens.  To  State  Department  to  examine  the  files  of  the  Proto- 
col Committee,  Lend-Lease,  and  State  Department  files. 

Mr.  Harrison.  For  the  purpose  of  getting  this  information? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes;  and  we  have  had  no  reply  affirming  or  denying 
the  request. 

Mr.  Walter.  Wlio  has  custody  of  the  Lend-Lease  files? 

Mr.  Owens.  Lend-Lease  was  absorbed  by  the  Foreign  Economic 
Administration,  and  as  we  understand  the  State  Department  has  the 
files. 

Mr.  Harrison.  To  whom  was  your  request  directed  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  As  I  recall,  to  Mr.  Peurifoy  at  the  State  Department 
in  late  December. 

Mr.  Harrison.  And  you  got  no  answer  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  No  answer  as  yet. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Nobody  expects  a  reply  from  the  State  Department 
in  3  weeks,  but  it  looks  like  you  should  get  one  in  2  months. 

Mr.  Walter.  Is  that  the  shipment  General  Groves  said  he  felt 
should  be  made  in  order  not  to  arouse  suspicion  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  The  1,000  pounds? 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes. 

Mr.  Owens.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Continue. 

Mr.  Owens.  The  shipping  ticket  disclosed  that  the  1,000  grams  of 
heavy  water  were  consigned  to  Mr.  Anisimov,  in  care  of  the  com- 
manding officer,  Ladd  Field,  Fairbanks,  Alaska.  Airway  bill  No. 
350,199  indicated  shipment  of  the  heavy  water  from  Gore  Field,  Great 
Falls,  Mont.,  to  Mr.  Anisimov.  Attached  to  these  documents  was  a 
Government  Purchasing  Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union  in  the  United 
States  release  certificate  No.  366,  approving  for  export  to  the 
U.  S.  S.  R.  on  November  15,  by  William  C.  Moore,  Division  for  Soviet 
Supply,  Office  of  Lend-Lease  Administration,  1,000  grams  of  heavy 
water,  consigned  by  the  Government  Purchasing  Commission  of  the 
Soviet  Union  in  the  United  States,  to  Rasnoimport,  U.  S.  S.  K. 

Mr.  Ta^^nner.  Will  you  examine  the  release  certificate  signed  by 
Mr.  W.  C,  Moore,  and  state  what  the  certificate  purports  to  be? 

Mr.  Owens.  That  release  certificate  is  in  the  report. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  your  investigation  disclose  the  existence  of  a 
record  acknowledging  receipt  of  this  shipment  of  heavy  water  by  a 
Russian  representative? 

Mr.  Owens.  An  examination  to  determine  if  the  Russians  had  in 
fact  received  the  heavy  water  disclosed  a  tally  sheet  dated  December 
13,  1943,  receipting  for  various  shipments,  including  one  of  heavy 
water,  bearing  shipping  ticket  No.  UN-3199.  The  signature  on  this 
document  was  identified  as  being  in  Russian  handwriting. 

INIr.  Walter.  Where  did  that  come  from  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  This  tally  sheet  ? 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes. 

Mr.  Owens.  From  Ladd  Field. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  an  examination  made  to  determine  whether  a 
record  exists  of  the  shipment  of  uranium,  uranium  metal,  uranium  ore, 
or  heavy  water,  during  the  year  1944  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  Yes.  Such  an  examination  was  made  and  no  record  of 
such  a  shipment  was  found  by  the  Air  Force. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1051 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  Does  the  report  made  by  the  Air  Force  indicate  that 
an  examination  of  shipments  was  made  for  the  year  1945,  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Oavens.  No,  it  does  not,  but  I  have  been  advised  by  the  Air 
Force  that  their  examination  of  these  files  was  for  the  entire  period  of 
1941  through  1945.    That  was  a  telephone  message. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Rosenberg  of  Chematar,  Inc.,  has  testified  that 
an  additional  shipment  of  100  grams  of  heavy  water  was  made  to  the 
Purchasing  Commission  of  the  Soviet  Union  at  Washington  on  the 
14th  day  of  February  1945.  Has  an  investigation  been  made  regard- 
ing the  export  to  Russia  of  this  shipment  ? 

Mr.  Owens.  The  investigation  is  still  being  conducted.  We  have 
not  traced  that  shipment  of  100  grams  of  heavy  water  from  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission  here  in  Washington. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Have  you  conducted  an  investigation  relating  to 
the  sale  to  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  of  45  pounds  of  ura- 
nium in  June  1944? 

Mr,  Owens.  Yes,  sir.  The  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  on  March 
ii,  1944,  under  requisition  8694,  requested  63.53  long  tons  of  various 
chemicals  as  specified  in  Form  1-A.  Form  1-A  lists  the  various  chem- 
icals tliey  requested,  and  item  9  is  0.02  long  tons  of  uranium  nitrate. 
This  is  a  straight  lend-lease  transaction. 

Lend-Lease  then  asked  the  Procurement  Division  of  the  Treasury 
Department  to  contract  to  buy  this  uranium  nitrate.  The  Treasury 
Department  then  sent  out  bids  to  various  companies  to  bid  on  this 
uranium  nitrate.  Our  information  is  that  they  sent  notices  to  about 
a  dozen  companies.  When  the  bids  were  received,  the  Treasury  bought 
from  the  lowest  bidder,  being  the  Eastman  Kodak  Co.  of  Rochester, 
N.  Y. 

The  Treasury  Department  inspected  this  uranium  at  the  Eastman 
Kodak  Co.  in  Rochester  on  July  19,  1944.  It  met  with  Government 
ppecifications,  and  left  Rochester  on  July  19,  1944,  via  McDaniel's 
Trucking  Co.,  bound  for  Terre  Haute,  Inch,  and  it  arrived  at  the 
Army  Ordnance  Depot  at  Terre  Haute  on  July  24, 1944. 

It  was  shipped  out  from  Terre  Haute  on  July  27,  1944,  in  Erie 
freight  car  No.  97352.  It  was  not  the  Erie  line,  but  an  Erie  freight 
car  by  that  number.  It  was  bound  for  North  Portland,  Oreg.,  and 
arrived  at  North  Portland,  Oreg.,  on  August  11,  1944.  It  was  loaded 
aboard  the  steamship  Kashirstroi  on  October  3,  1944,  bound  for  Vladi- 
vostok. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  No  further  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Walter? 

Mr.  Walter.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Harrison? 

Mr.  Harrison.  No. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Velde? 

Mr.  Velde.  No. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Kearney? 

Mr.  Kearney.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Owens. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  to  call  Colonel  Crenshaw. 

Mr.  Wood.  Colonel  Crenshaw,  will  you  hold  up  your  right  hand, 
please.     Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  give  this  com- 


1052  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

mittee  shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
so  help  you  God  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  COL.  THOMAS  T.  CRENSHAW 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  your  full  name,  please  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Thomas  T.  Crenshaw. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Where  do  you  live? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Watertown,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Where  were  you  born  and  what  is  your  age? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Unionville,  Mo.;  age  40. 

]\Ir.  Tavenner.  Will  you  give  the  committee  a  brief  resume  of  your 
educational  and  employment  background? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  am  a  graduate  of  Culver  Military  Academy, 
Princeton  University,  graduate  study  at  New  York  University.  I 
was  employed  at  the  time  of  my  graduation  from  college  as  an  archi- 
tect. Various  concurrent  active  tours  of  duty  in  the  Army  as  a  Re- 
serve officer.  Called  to  active  duty  in  August  1940,  continuing  until 
April  1946.     Employed  thereafter  as  an  architect. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Have  you  given  the  course  of  your  employment  up 
until  the  time  you  became  connected  with  Manhattan  Engineering 
District? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Beyond  that  point.  That  was  included  in  that 
period. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  long  were  you  with  the  Manhattan  Engineer- 
ing District  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Approximately  2^/4  years. 

Mr.  Wood.  Between  what  dates? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  From  June  or  July  1942  until  June  1944. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Colonel  Crenshaw,  what  position  did  you  hold 
within  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Initially  I  was  area  engineer  at  the  University 
of  California  in  the  construction  of  a  pilot  plant,  and  in  October  of 
1942  I  came  to  New  York  to  start  the  so-called  Special  Materials 
Section  of  the  Manhattan  District,  which  was  in  charge  of  the  pro- 
curement and  processing  of  uranium  and  allied  special  materials. 

In  June  1943  I  was  transferred  to  Oak  Ridge  as  deputy  district 
engineer,  and  continued  at  Oak  Ridge  until  1944  in  various  capacities, 
executive  officer,  and  several  other  capacities. 

Mr.  TA\rENNER.  To  what  extent  did  you  deal  with  questions  arising 
in  regard  to  the  approval  or  consideration  by  Manhattan  Engineering 
District  of  shipments  of  uranium  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  was  in  charge  of  that  particular  division  and 
had  full  knowledge  of  virtually  everything  that  went  on,  subject  to 
Colonel  Nichols'  and  "General  Groves'  approval. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  Captain  Merritt  in  your  division  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  He  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  he  a  subordinate  of  yours  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  you  his  immediate  superior  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Mr.  Burman  was  connected  with  your  office  also, 
was  he  not  ? 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1053 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  there  any  other  persons  who  occupied  a  position 
where  they  would  know  of  the  transactions  relating  to  uranium  in 
your  office  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  There  were  a  great  many  others  who  had  knowl- 
edge of  specific  details  regarding  various  transactions.  The  one  next 
to  myself  who  had  authority  was  Lt.  Col.  John  Ruhoff,  and  he  suc- 
ceeded me  in  charge  of  that  section  when  I  went  to  Oak  Eidge. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Which  was  in  June  1943  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  his  present  address  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Mallinkrodt  Chemical  Co.,  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  are  familiar  with  the  transaction  relating  to 
the  purchase  of  420  pounds  of  uranium  compounds  from  the  Shattuck 
Co.  and  their  shipment  for  export,  are  you  not  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes;  to  the  degree  permitted  by  my  memory 
over  several  years. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  After  that  shipment  was  consummated — and  I  will 
not  ask  you  questions  about  that  because  it  has  been  very  fully  covered 
by  other  witnesses— but  after  that  time  the  question  came  up  again 
regarding  another  proposed  export  license,  did  it  not  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  it  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  State  Department  has  furnished  the  committee 
copies  of  letters  from  the  files  of  Lend-Lease,  and  I  have  here  a  letter 
dated  April  17,  1943,  signed  by  Thomas  T.  Crenshaw,  directed  to 
Lend-Lease  Administration,  attention  Mr.  James  Hoopes.  Will  you 
look  at  that  letter  for  the  purpose  of  refreshing  your  recollection  ? 

Mr.  Harrison.  What  date  is  that? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  April  17, 1943.  I  will  read  the  letter  into  the  record 
and  ask  several  questions  about  it. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  I  remember  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  recall  having  written  that  letter  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  do, 

Mr.  Tavenner  (reading)  : 

War  Department, 
United  States  Engineer  Office, 

Manhattan  District, 
'New  York,  N.  Y.,  April  11,  1943. 
Lend-Lease  Administration, 

Washington,  D.  C. 

(Attention  Mr.  James  Hoopes.) 

Gentlemen  :  This  office  has  been  referred  to  you  as  being  familiar  with  the 
status  of  requests  from  the  Russian  Government  for  uranium  compounds  and 
metal.    It  is  understood  that  you  will  act  for  Mr.  Moore  during  his  absence. 

Copy  of  letter  from  the  War  Production  Board,  regarding  available  supplies 
of  ferro-uranium,  is  enclosed.  We  had  previously  advised  tiie  War  Production 
Board  that  we  would  not  be  interested  in  obtaining  this  material  and  therefore 
would  suggest  that  you  contact  Mr.  Punderson  directly  in  order  to  make  sure 
that  the  material  is  still  available.  In  addition  to  the  quantities  indicated  hei'e, 
this  office  is  cognizant  of  another  small  lot  of  ferro-uranium  totaling  approxi- 
mately 65  pounds. 

If  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission  is  interested  in  this  material  from  the 
standpoint  of  experimental  work  on  alloys  as  they  have  previously  stated,  the 
ferro-uranium  should  serve  their  purpose  as  well  or  better  than  uranium  salts. 
It  is  suggested  that  it  might  be  advisable  to  attempt  to  secure  a  commitment 
from  them  as  to  any  particular  specifications  which  must  be  met  if  they  decide 
to  accept  ferro-uranium ;  it  would  be  preferable  to  obtain  this  information  before 
making  the  enclosed  analysis  available  to  them. 


1054  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

It  is  requested  that  we  be  kept  advised  as  to  the  progress  of  the  negotiations 
regarding  this  material.     If  they  refuse  to  accept  the  ferro-urauium,  kindly 
notify  us,  as  we  have  one  alternate  proposition  which  might  perhaps  be  offered 
as  a  solution  to  the  present  difficulty. 
For  the  district  engineer : 
Very  truly  yours, 

(Signed)  Thomas  T.  Crenshaw, 
Lieutenant  Colonel,  Corps  of  Engineers, 

Assistant. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  that  letter  written  during  the  period  that  the 
discussion  was  going  on  regarding  the  advisability  of  approving  the 
issuance  of  an  export  license  for  the  shipment  of  uranium  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  it  was  just  prior  to  discussion  of  actu- 
ally issuing  an  export  license.  As  I  recall  we  considered  issuing  the 
license  only  as  a  last  resort. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliat  was  the  purpose  in  offering  ferro-uranium  to 
the  Russians  instead  of  uranium  salts  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  If  they  wanted  to  do  metallurgical  research,  as 
they  said,  that  should  have  been  just  the  thing  for  tliem. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  the  purpose  of  your  making  this  suggestion 
to  escape  the  decision  of  your  exporting  uranium  by  inducing  them 
to  take  a  substitute  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  TA^^:NNER.  You  spoke  in  the  last  paragraph  of  there  being  an 
alternate  solution  in  the  event  the  substitutes  were  not  accepted.  What 
was  that  alternate  solution? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  know  what  that  might  have  been,  unless 
it  was  the  issuance  of  an  export  license. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Or  you  may  have  wanted  to  know  if  they  would  be 
satisfied  with  the  ferro-uranium  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes.    We  didn't  think  they  would  be,  however. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  is  ferro-uranium  used  for  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Ferro-uranium  is  a  uranium-bearing  steel. 
Uranium  is  used  in  steel  hardening  and  is  used  in  ordnance. 

Mr.  Wood.  Armor  plate? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Woods.  Guns? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  learn  subsequently  whether  the  Russians 
were  interested  in  material  of  this  character  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes.     We  were  advised  they  did  not  want  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  show  you  a  letter  from  Mr.  Hoopes  in  reply  to 
yours  of  the  I7th.  This  letter  is  dated  April  23, 1943.  Do  you  recog- 
nize that  letter  as  having  been  received  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  I  do. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  will  read  this  letter  in  evidence.     (Reading:) 

April  23,  1943. 
Lt.  Col.  Thomas  T.  Crenshaw, 

War  Department,  United  States  Engineer  Office, 

Neio  York,  N.  Y. 
Dear  Colonel  Crenshaw  :  I  wi-sh  to  thank  you  for  your  letter  of  April  lY, 
enclosing  copy  of  a  February  9  letter  from  Mr.  Punderson  of  the  War  Production 
Board,  of  Cleveland,  on  items  of  ferro-uranium  in  stock  with  the  Latrobe  Electric 
Steel  Co. 

Since  the  receipt  of  your  letter,  however,  I  understand  that  General  Groves 
has  advised  General  Wesson  that  the  particular  request  for  500  pounds  of 
urano-uranic  oxide  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  can  be  approved.     The 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1055 

Soviet  Commission  is  being  advised  accordingly.  In  addition,  it  has  been  agreed 
that  an  application  for  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal  will  be  entertained  if  sub- 
mitted. 

I  assume  that  General  Groves  will  post  you  on  any  details  regarding  his 
decision. 

If  there  are  further  inquiries  from  the  Soviets  on  these  or  related  materials,  we 
will  let  you  know. 

Very  truly  yours, 

(Signed)     jAitEs  P.  Hoopes. 

Associate  Liaison  Officer, 
Division  for  Soviet  Supply. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  letter  is  from  Lend-Lease  Administration. 
That  indicates  a  decision  had  been  reached  between  the  date  of  your 
letter  of  April  17  and  April  23  to  approve  an  export  license.  Will 
you  tell  the  committee  all  you  know  about  the  approval  of  the  export 
license  and  the  reasons  for  that  action,  if  you  know  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  testified  in  1948  that  to  the  best  of  my  recol- 
lection a  second  shipment  to  the  Soviets  had  been  approved.  At  that 
time  I  stated  that  I  believed  the  reason  was  that  we  didn't  want  to 
continue  to  arouse  their  curiosity  regarding  a  product  that  had  been 
previously  commercially  available,  and  therefore  decided  to  let  them 
have  the  second  quantity. 

Since  the  time  of  that  testimony  I  have  been  able  to  refresh  my 
memory  a  bit  and  to  talk  to  several  of  the  other  people  involved,  and 
I  would  like  to  enter  a  second  possibility  for  that  decision,  and  that  is 
the  possibility  that  we  intended  to  issue  the  license  and  then  perhaps 
prevent  them  from  actually  getting  the  material.  \'Vliich  of  those 
possibilities  it  was  at  the  time,  I  can't  recall. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  recall  whether  steps  were  taken  after  the 
first  shipment  to  block  further  shipments  from  suppliers  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes.  We  knew  that  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission  had  contacted  the  Shattuck  Chemical  Co.,  in  Denver,  re- 
garding procuring  a  second  quantity  in  addition  to  the  first  420  pounds. 

Mr.  Walter.  How  did  you  laiow  that  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Through  our  Intelligence  Service,  which  kept 
us  posted  on  all  requests ;  and  also  through  arrangements  we  had  with 
the  War  Production  Board  or  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  which 
turned  over  to  us  any  requests  that  came  in  for  uranium,  and  we  were 
able  to  block  most  transactions  in  that  way.  The  only  way  we  could 
block  them  was  under  the  controls  set  up  in  January  1943  prohibiting 
the  use  of  uranium  compounds  in  the  ceramics  industry.  Other  than 
that,  we  were  powerless  to  take  action. 

I  believe  one  of  our  men  went  to  Denver  and  talked  to  officials  of  the 
Shattuck  Co.  and  asked  them  not  to  make  the  second  shipment  to  the 
Soviets. 

Mr.  Walter.  The  Shattuck  Co.  informed  officials  of  our  Govern- 
ment that  the  request  had  been  made  to  them  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  That  is  quite  possible.  I  don't  recall.  Shat- 
tuck at  first,  I  believe,  said  they  were  obligated  to  make  the  shipment, 
that  they  had  accepted  the  purchase  order.  I  believe  we  stalled  that 
off  for  quite  a  while,  with  their  cooperation,  and  finally  the  matter 
dragged  out  so  long  that  Shattuck  finally  agreed  not  to  fill  the  order. 
In  the  meantime,  I  understand  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  had 
become  impatient  and  had  gone  to  another  source. 


1056  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  the  time  the  agreement  was  reached  to  issue  the 
license,  or  to  approve  the  license,  was  it  known  or  suspected  that  any 
other  source  had  been  found  by  the  Kussians  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  There  were  many  possible  sources  throughout 
the  country,  a  great  many  firms.  The  ceramic  and  other  industries 
had  small  quantities,  and  some  had  large  quantities.  We  were  at- 
tempting to  secure  complete  listings  of  those  stocks,  but  it  took  some 
time  to  trace  down  all  those  small  stocks  that  existed  over  the  entire 
country. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  The  evidence  introduced  here  shows  that  ISIr.  Rosen- 
berg, of  Chematar,  Inc.,  received  a  letter  dated  April  22,  1943,  cancel- 
ing the  order  by  Shattuck.  The  license  that  was  issued  is  dated  April 
23.  Can  you  tell  us  an3^thing  to  enlighten  the  committee  on  any  nego- 
tiations that  were  made  on  or  about  that  date  between  your  office  and 
Lend-Lease  or  any  other  agencies  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No,  I  am  afraid  I  can't  clarify  that  point. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  learn  that  Shattuck  Co.  had  actually  re- 
fused to  make  the  shipment  and  had  so  notified  the  broker  or  agent? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  know  that  we  were  ever  actually  advised 
that  they  had  notified  the  agent.  We  were  advised  that  they  had 
decided  not  to  fill  the  order. 

]Mr.  Harrison.  And  thereafter  jou  issued  a  shipping  permit? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No.  I  think  the  shipping  permit  was  dated 
prior  to  that  date. 

Mr.  Haiujison.  I  undei-stood  you  to  say  the  shipping  point  was 
dated  January  23,  Mr.  Tavenner,  and  Shattuck  said  they  would  not 
ship  it  on  the  22d,  so  the  paper  issued  to  them  was  a  worthless  piece 
of  paper.     Is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Ta\^enner.  I  think  we  will  show  the  action  taken  was  on  the 
22d,  though  the  paper  was  dated  the  23d. 

Mr.  Harrison.  But  it  was  a  worthless  piece  of  paper  when  issued  ? 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  I  am  not  too  certain.  The  time  element  is  too  clot^e 
to  be  certain.     There  is  a  possibility  of  its  being  too  close. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  have  a  vague  recollection — and  this  is  entirely 
recollection — to  my  belief  we  had  about  decided  to  let  Shattuck  ship 
the  material  before  they  advised  us  they  would  comply  with  our  wishes 
and  not  ship  it. 

Mr.  Walter.  Wliy  did  you  decide  to  let  Shattuck  ship  it  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw\  Again  to  alla}^  Russian  suspicions  as  to  the 
sudden  disappearance  of  all  this  material  from  the  market.  Previ- 
ously it  had  been  a  commercial  product,  and  if  all  the  sources  of  supply 
suddenly  dry  up,  somebody  is  going  to  wonder  why  they  dried  up. 

(Representative  Kearney  leaves  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  purpose  of  trying  to  block  the  ship- 
ments if  you  were  going  to  turn  around  and  h  t  them  go  through? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  We  were  using  delaying  tactics  in  the  hope  that 
sooner  or  later  they  would  let  the  whole  matt'-r  drop,  but  they  did  not; 
they  continually  kept  trying  to  get  the  supplies,  and  we  could  not  stop 
Shattuck  legally  from  making  the  sale.  The  only  thing  we  could  do 
was  to  prevail  on  Lend-Lease  to  refuse  to  issue  an  export  license. 

Mr.  Wood.  In  that  connection,  you  stated  awhile  ago  that  prior  to 
that  time  they  had  been  offered  tliis  ferro-uranium  and  that  they 
advised  you  they  did  not  want  it.     Did  that  indicate  to  you  that  they 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1057 

had  some  purpose  other  than  armaments  that  they  wanted  this  mate- 
rial for? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes.  It  indicated  three  possibilities  to  me. 
They  were  asking  for  uranium  oxide  and  uranium  nitrate.  The  rea- 
sons they  gave  were  for  research  in  armaments  and  research  in  medi- 
cine, which  the  nitrate  would  have  been  used  for.  They  might  have 
wanted  the  material  for  either  of  those  purposes;  they  might  have 
suspected  we  were  doing  something  in  atomic  research  and  might  have 
wanted  to  know  how  much  we  had  on  hand ;  and  there  was  a  fourth 
possibility  that  they  were  actually  getting  into  atomic  research  them- 
selves. 

Mr.  Wood.  But  they  had  asked  for  material  indicating  they  wanted 
it  only  for  armament  purposes  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  they  indicated  medicine  in  addition  to 
armaments. 

Mr.  Walter.  At  that  time  it  was  pretty  generally  known  through- 
out the  world  that  uranium  could  be  used  to  make  an  atomic  bomb? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes ;  it  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  for  you  to  state  more  clearly  what  you 
know  about  the  reasons  which  were  the  basis  for  the  issuance  of  the 
license  on  April  23.  Can  you  recall  discussions  that  you  had  with 
any  officials  of  MED,  including  General  Groves,  that  would  throw 
any  light  on  that  decision  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No;  I  cannot.  I  did  not  have  an  opportunity 
to  discuss  it  with  General  Groves  at  the  time.  He  was  in  AVashington, 
and  the  information  was  furnished  him  there,  and  he  made  the  decision 
there,  and  I  am  sure  his  testimony  on  this  matter  would  be  clearer 
than  that  of  anybody  else  and  would  furnish  the  actual  reason  behind 
the  issuance  of  that  license,  and  it  would  be  better  than  the  series  of 
guesses  I  might  make  on  the  subject. 

Mr.  Wood.  Did  you  approve  in  your  official  capacity  the  issuance 
of  that  license  you'-self  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  recall  whether  I  did  or  not.  It  was  not 
necessary  for  me  to  approve  the  issuance  of  those  licenses,  provided 
General  Groves'  office  in  Washington  concurred.  Many  of  these  trans- 
actions were  handled  by  Maj.  Allen  Johnson. 

Mr.  Wood.  Wouldn't  it  have  been  irregular  for  the  license  to  have 
been  issued  and  approved  without  consulting  with  you? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Not  necessarily.  I  would  have  been  advised 
after  the  fact,  however. 

Mr.  Walter.  As  I  understand  it,  your  purpose  in  resorting  to  these 
delaying  tactics,  as  you  put  it,  was  solely  to  prevent  the  Russians  from 
knowing  that  we  were  engaged  in  an  atomic  bomb  project  with  the  use 
of  materials  everybody  knew  could  be  used  for  that  purpose? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.'  Ytjs;  and  there  was  a  secondary  reason  which 
did  not  apply  at  that  time.  If  the  Russians  were  actually  engaged 
in  atomic  research,  it  mig^t  do  no  harm  to  give  them  small  quantities 
of  material  that  was  imperfect. 

Mr.  Walter.  So  that  for  the  purpose  of  preventing  them  from 
knowing  what  the  United  States  was  doing,  it  was  to  the  best  interest 
to  make  shipments  to  them  from  time  to  time,  was  it  not? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  It  might  well  have  been. 


99334—50 11 


1058  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  it  was  generally  known 
throughout  the  world  that  uranium  could  be  used  to  make  the  atomic 
bomb  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes ;  by  all  competent  scientists. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  don't  refer  to  the  average  citizen  ? 
Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  think  it  was  known  to  the  average 
citizen,  although  there  had  been  many  tabloid  stories  in  1940.     I  would 
say  people  generally  engaged  in  scientific  work  would  know,  not 
necessarily  physicists. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliat  was  General  Groves'  attitude,  so  far  as 
you  knew  it,  in  regard  to  permitting  the  exporting  of  uranium  to 
Russia  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  General  Groves'  underlying  philosophy  was 
that  the  last  thing  in  the  world  he  wanted  to  do  was  to  help  the 
Russians  in  any  way. 

Mr.  Walter.  Was  he  of  that  opinion,  and  did  he  take  that  attitude, 
during  the  period  when  they  were  doing  most  of  the  fighting  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Frankly,  yes;  I  think  he  did.  The  Russians 
were  our  allies,  and  as  to  normal  raw  materials  it  was  the  policy  to 
give  them  all  assistance  we  could,  but  I  think  General  Groves 
felt  our  work  on  atomic  research  did  not  fall  in  that  category  and  we 
were  not  obligated  to  help  them  along  that  line. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  share  that  philosophy  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  possibly  to  a  stronger  degree  than  General 
Groves  and  Colonel  Nichols  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  don't  want  to  ask  you  to  speculate  on  what  hap- 
pended  at  that  time,  but  do  you  know  of  any  fact  that  would  indicate 
that  a  decision  had  been  reached  to  let  Shattuck  ship  this  second  ship- 
ment ?     If  so,  we  would  like  to  know  it. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  That  is  pure  guessing  on  my  part.  I  am  not 
even  certain  that  it  can  be  verified  in  the  records. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  it  could  be  verified  it  could  be  proven  as  a  fact. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  do  you  recall  any  fact,  whether  in  the  record 
or  not,  which  would  throw  light  one  way  or  another  on  that  point  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No.  We  discussed  it  many  times,  "usually  in- 
formally, as  to  the  Russian  situation.  The  ideas  changed  from  time 
to  time.  For  example,  when  the  first  shipment  was  authorized  there 
was  no  question  in  my  mind  what  the  purpose  was.  We  felt  it  was 
better  to  let  them  have  that  small  quantity  than  raise  a  hue  and  cry. 

Mr.  Wood.  You  say  there  was  no  ciuestion  in  your  mind  what  they 
wanted  it  for'? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  sir.  They  may  have  wanted  it  for  any  of 
the  four  reasons  I  have  stated  or  some  other  reason.  I  don't  know 
what  their  reason  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  knew  by  the  letter  of  April  23  that  the  license 
had  been  granted  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  any  action  taken  from  that  time  on  to  see 
whether  or  not  the  Russians  were  going  to  procure  the  uranium  under 
that  license  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  about  that. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1059  -y. 


>.-i 


Colonel  Crenshaw.  My  first  indication  that  t'he  Russians  had  suc- 
ceeded in  obtaining  a  second  quantity  was,  I  believe,  a  question  from 
Colonel  Xichols  as  to  whether  I  knew  anything  about  procurement  of  a 
second  quantity  from  any  one  whatsoever,  and  I  told  him  that  I  did 
not.  Pie  said  that  he  had  received  an  indication,  of  which  he  had 
no  proof  or  other  detailed  knowledge,  that  the  Russians  had  succeeded 
in  having  the  second  order  filled.  We  didn't  know  the  quantities,  and 
I  don't  believe  we  were  even  sure  where  they  had  gotten  it.  It  was 
more  of  a  rumor  than  fact  at  that  time. 

Colonel  Ruhoff  and  myself  did  have  a  talk  with  Mr.  Pregel  of  the 
Canadian  Radium  and  Uranium  Corp.,  and  the  results  of  that  conver- 
sation are,  again,  purely  from  long-distance  memory  and  pretty  much 
guesswork.  As  I  recall  it,  we  said  to  Mr.  Pregel :  "Have  you  or  have 
you.  not  filled  any  orders  for  the  Russians?"  I  believe  he  replied  that 
he  had. 

Mr.  Wood.  On  that  point.  Colonel,  I  grant  it  has  been  a  long  while, 
but  that  was  a  pretty  important  question,  was  it  not  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  sir. 

ISIr.  Wood.  Can  you  be  positive  that  such  a  conversation  as  that  did 
take  place  and  that  you  were  informed  it  had  been  done  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  can  be  positive  the  conversation  took  places 
As  to  exactly  what  transpired  in  that  conversation,  I  cannot  be  posi- 
tive, but  I  think  it  can  be  found  in  the  records. 

]Mr.  Wood.  Did  you  obtain  from  that  conversation  the  information 
that  the  order  had  been  filled  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  that  conversation  take  place  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  believe  May  or  June  1943.  It  was  just  at  the 
time  I  was  getting  ready  to  go  to  Oak  Ridge  and  was  turning  my  job 
over  to  Colonel  Ruhoff. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  According  to  your  best  recollection  at  this  time 
that  conversation  took  place  and  you  gained  information  that  a  ship- 
ment had  been  made  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  believe  we  gained  the  information  that  a  ship- 
ment had  been  made. 

INIr.  Tavenner.  How  long  before  that  conference  was  it  that  Colonel 
Nichols  asked  you  if  you  knew  of  any  source  of  supply  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  As  soon  as  he  asked  about  it  we  immediately  got 
in  touch  with  Mr.  Pregel,  and  he  came  down  to  our  office  on  Twenty- 
seventh  Street  and  we  went  over  the  whole  matter  with  him. 

Mr.  Wood.  For  the  purpose  of  the  record,  which  Pregel  was  that  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Boris. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  were  present  in  that  conference  besides 
yourself  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Major  Ruhoff  and  Mr.  Pregel. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  Mr.  Boris  Pregel  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  do  you  consider  is  the  value  to  the  Russians 
of  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  would  say  the  value  would  be  very,  very 
slight,  if  any.  It  might  have  been  useful  for  experimental  purposes ; 
that  is  about  all. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wouldn't  experimental  purposes  have  to  be  the 
start  of  an  atomic  enterprise  ? 


1060  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes;  that  is  correct;  but  they  could  have 
obtained  that  from  other  sources.  Going  to  sources  all  over  the  world 
and  getting  500  pounds  here  and  there,  conceivably  they  may  have 
obtained  a  stock  pile,  but  that  is  doubtful. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  it  would  have  been  of  value  for  experimental 
purposes  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Where  else  was  this  material  available? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  understand  that  the  Russians  have  rather 
extensive  deposits  themselves.  I  don't  know  to  what  extent  those 
deposits  have  been  developed.  There  are  deposits  in  Tibet  and  Mada- 
gascar and  South  America;  and  there  were  extensive  deposits  in 
Czechoslovakia,  which  were  in  the  hands  of  the  Germans  at  that  time; 
and  there  Avas  a  large  stock  pile  in  Antwerp  which  was  in  German 
hands  at  that  time  and  not  available  to  the  Russians. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  or  any  person  on  the  staif  of  the  Man- 
hattan Engineering  District  know  that  Mr.  Pregel  was  going  to  fill 
tliat  order  before  it  was  filled  and  shipped? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Tam^nner.  The  evidence  is  tliat  some  left  the  country  on 
May — I  do  not  have  the  exact  date  before  me — but  was  any  effort 
made  to  stop  the  shipment? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  The  shipment  had  already  gone,  as  I  recall  it, 
by  the  time  we  even  knew  about  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Had  there  been  anv  discussion,  to  vour  knowledtje, 
with  Mr.  Pregel,  prior  to  the  filling  of  that  order  by  him,  relating  to 
the  filling  of  an  order  for  any  government  other  than  the  United 
States  or  Canada  ? 

Colonel  C'RENshav/.  Yes ;  there  had  been.  I  specifically  remember 
a  discussion  of  sales  to  the  British  Government,  and  I  believe  that 
discussion  was  prior  to  this  shipment.  I  can't  be  positive  of  that 
without  the  records,  but  that,  again,  would  be  in  the  records.  In 
addition,  we  didn't  feel  that  it  was  particidarly  necessary  to  discuss 
the  matter,  because  we  had  been  oflfered  voluntarily  on  the  part  of 
Mr.  Pregel  all  stocks  of  uranium  and  nitrate  that  they  had  in  the 
Eldorado  mines  or  elsewhere. 

]Mr.  Woon.  Prior  to  that  shipment  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Prior  to  that  shipment ;  yes. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  When  was  that  agreement  reached? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  can't  be  positive  of  that.  It  might  have  been 
as  early  as  January  or  February  1943. 

Mr.  Wood.  Was  that  commitment  in  writing  or  oral? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  it  was  in  writing. 

Mr.  Tav'enner.  You  think  it  was  in  writing? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  As  early  as  January  or  February? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  It  could  have  been  any  time  between  January 
and  April. 

]VIr.  Wood.  At  the  time  you  had  your  conversation  with  Mr.  Pregel 
which  you  have  detailed,  in  the  presence  of  the  officer  next  in  command 
to  you,  did  you  have  at  that  time  the  written  commitment  from  Mr. 
Pregel  giving  the  Manhattan  District  first  option  to  any  material  on 
hand  or  that  it  might  acquire  ? 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1061 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  believe  it  was  in  our  files ;  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  you  referring  to  an  agreement  of  March  27  De- 
tween  Manhattan  District  and  Canadian  Radium  and  Uranium  Corp., 
which  specified  certain  materials  should  be  delivered,  and  giving  the 
code  numbers  in  the  agreement? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No.  I  am  referring  to  an  earlier  informal 
agreement  that  was  later  expressed  by  that  contract  or  by  a  contract 
of  a  later  date. 

Mr,  TA^"ENNER.  And  that  earlier  understanding  was  reduced  to  a 
written  agreement? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  it  was.  I  think  Mr.  Pregel  wrote  us 
a  letter  offering  the  stock  and  I  believe  stating  a  time  limit  on  it. 

Mr.  Wood.  Categorically,  can  you  state  that  there  was  such  an 
agreement  and  understanding  with  Mr.  Pregel  that  you  should  have 
the  first  option  to  purchase  uranium  material  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes ;  I  can. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Regarding  the  contract  of  March  27,  do  you  have 
any  independent  recollection  of  when  it  was  actually  executed  and 
delivered? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No;  I  do  not.  It  probably  would  have  been 
negotiated  at  a  considerably  earlier  date  than  the  actual  date  of  the 
contract,  because  those  contracts  were  very  complicated  and  normally 
they  took  a  long  period  of  time  to  negotiate. 

Mr.  Ta\t.nner.  In  the  earlier  part  of  your  testimony  you  referred 
to  the  fact  that  after  this  first  shipment  arrangements  were  made  with 
other  agencies  to  notify  you  of  interests  shown  by  other  governments 
in  uranium? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Tell  us  about  that,  what  arrangements  were  made 
and  with  whom. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  we  had  arranged  with  both  the  Bmrd 
of  Economic  Warfare  and  the  War  Production  Board  to  advise  us  of 
any  interest  in  uranium  compounds  or  uranium  metal. 

Mr.  Ta\t5nner.  By  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Agency  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  By  anyone. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  By  anyone? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr,  Ta\^nner.  With  whom  were  those  arrangements  made  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw,  I  cannot  answer  that  question.  Mr,  Burman 
handled  those  transactions  and  I  believe  his  memory  or  his  records 
would  be  rather  complete  on  that  subject. 

Mr.  Ta^'enner.  When  the  time  came  to  consider  the  advisability  of 
the  approval  of  the  second  license,  with  whom  did  you  deal  in  Lend- 
Lease?  Who  conferred  with  you  from  Lend-Lease,  by  telephone  or 
personally  or  by  letter? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Mr,  Hoopes,  and  I  think  Mr,  Moore. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Any  other  persons? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Those  were  the  only  two  at  that  time, 

Mr.  Ta^^nner.  The  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  was  the  issuing 
agency.  Did  you  have  a  conference  with  anyone  from  the  Bureau  of 
Economic  Warfare  regarding  this  license? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  did  not  personally,  so  far  as  I  can  recollect. 
Lieutenant  Burman  handled  all  the  details  of  those  transactions. 


1062  .  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

JNIr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  at  any  time  confer  with  anyone  from  the 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  or  did  any  other  person  in  your  organiza- 
tion, to  your  knowledge,  with  regard  to  this  particular  license? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  am  sure  that  Mr.  Burman  must  have  con- 
ferred with  them.  It  may  or  may  not  have  been  after  the  license  was 
issued.  I  know  that  Maj.  Allen  Johnson  in  General  Groves'  office 
would  have  been  the  logical  one  to  handle  that  particular  transaction. 

Mr.  Wood.  This  is  the  second  quorum  call.  The  committee  will 
have  to  stand  in  adjournment  until  2  o'clock. 

(Thereupon,  a  recess  was  taken  until  '2  p.  m.  of  the  same  day.) 

AFTERNOON  SESSION 

(The  hearing  was  resumed  at  2 :  30  p.  m.) 
Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  be  in  order. 

TESTIMONY  OF  COL.  THOMAS  T.  CRENSHAW— Resumed 

INIr.  Tavenner.  I  was  asking  you  at  the  close  of  the  morning  session 
about  the  names  of  officials  of  the  Bureau  of  Economic  Warft\re  who 
conferred  with  you  or  other  members  of  your  staff  relating  to  the  sec- 
ond export  license.     Can  you  recall  the  names  of  any? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  IMr.  Hoopes  and  Mr.  Moore. 

IVIr.  Tavenner.  ]Mr.  Hoopes  and  Mr.  Moore  were  in  Lend-Lease. 
My  question  related  to  the  Bureau  of  Economic  Warfare. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  do  not  recall  having  any  direct  connection 
with  anyone  in  BEW.  That  was  all  handled  through  Burman,  and 
I  probably  talked  to  various  individuals  in  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare  at  some  time,  but  I  do  not  recall  their  names. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  persons  in  that  organization,  regardless  of  what 
their  names  may  be,  confer  with  you  regarding  the  issuance  of  this  par- 
ticular license  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Not  to  my  recollection ;  not  directly  with  me, 
but  they  did  with  my  particular  group  in  Manhattan  District. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  members  of  your  group  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Lieutenant  Burman,  I  am  quite  sure. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Any  other  persons  whose  names  you  can  give? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Possibly  Captain  Merritt. 

Mr.  Taa-enner.  Any  others  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  that  would  be  all ;  and  General  Groves. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  And  General  Groves  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  have  any  knowledge  of  the  purpose  of  their 
interviews  and  what  took  place? 

Colonel  Crenshaav.  There  were  general  discussions  regarding  the 
issuance  of  the  license,  and  it  would  have  been  in  regard  to  that.  Spe- 
cifically, I  don't  have  any  knowledge  of  what  transpired. 

Mr.  Taat:nner.  Do  you  know  what  attitude  or  position  the  officials 
of  the  Bureau  of  Economic  Warfare  took  with  regard  to  the  question 
of  whether  this  license  should  be  issued  or  not? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Not  directly,  but  during  the  recess  I  was  search- 
ing my  memory  a  bit,  and  something  occurred  to  my  mind  that  has  a 
bearing  on  this  question,  as  well  as  the  question  you  asked  earlier  as  to 
the  motive  for  issuing  the  license  for  the  secon(i  shipment.  I  believe 
that  somewhere  in  the  files  of  the  district  there  will  be  found  a  memo- 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1063 

raiidum  with  my  signature  which  indicated  that  General  Groves  had 
decided  to  issue' the  export  license  because  of  pressure  that  was  being 
brought  to  bear.  That  word  "pressure"  may  have  been  my  own  word 
or  it  may  have  been  General  Groves'  word.  I  don't  know  the  implica- 
tion of  it.     But  I  am  sure  there  is  such  a  memorandum. 

Mr.  Wood.  Did  you  say  that  in  your  memorandum  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  sir.  I  believe  that  will  be  found  in  the 
files.     I  can't  be  positive  about  that. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Pressure  from  whom  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  recall.  It  might  have  been  from  Lend- 
Lease;  it  might  have  been  the  pressure  from  the  Russians  themselves 
tliat  they  were  exerting  on  all  possible  agencies. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  A  matter  of  that  importance,  don't  you  think  you 
could  tell  us  something  about  the  character  of  the  pressure? 

Colonel  Ckenshaw\  No,  sir.  I  don't  recall,  and  I  don't  know 
whether  the  word  "pressure"  was  my  own  word  or  whether  it  occurred 
in  a  conversation  with  General  Groves.  I  didn't  talk  to  him  face  to 
face,  but  did  have  telephone  conversations  with  him. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  there  an  indication  of  where  pressure  came 
from,  if  it  existed  ? 

Colonel  CRENSHA^v.  No,  sir.     I  can't  clarify  it  further  than  that. 

]\Ir.  Wood.  You  state  as  a  fact  that  the  term  "pressure"  was  used  in 
some  connection? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  That  is  my  recollection,  and  I  believe  such  a 
memorandum  could  be  found. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  staff  of  the  committee  has  been  informed  that 
there  was  a  telephone  conversation  between  Captain  Merritt  of  your 
office  and  Mr.  Hoopes  of  Lend-Lease,  which  conversation  Captain  Mer- 
ritt could  not  recall,  in  which  Captain  Merritt  is  alleged  to  have  stated 
that  pressure  had  just  been  brought  upon  General  Groves  to  change 
his  mind  with  regard  to  the  approval  of  the  license.  Does  that  refresh 
your  recollection  in  any  way  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No ;  except  to  the  extent  that  it  might  be  tied 
in  with  the  other  memorandum  which  I  just  mentioned. 

Mr.  Taat.nner.  In  other  words,  the  two  things  may  be  the  same  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  It  is  quite  possible,  yes. 

]Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  recall  discussing  the  subject  of  pressure 
with  any  member  of  the  staff  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  have  no  specific  recollection  of  it  except  that 
that  term  does  linger  in  my  mind. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  General  Groves  ever  tell  you  that  pressure  had 
been  applied  or  exercised  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw\  I  cannot  specifically  remember.  It  is  quite 
possible  that  he  used  the  term  himself. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  Captain  Merritt  or  Lieutenant  Burman  ever 
refer  to  pressure  being  exercised  in  connection  with  their  discussion 
of  the  matter  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw^  No.  I  have  no  recollection  of  that,  and  I  don't 
believe  pressure  would  have  been  placed  on  them,  anyway.  It  would 
come  at  the  top, 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  recall  whether  or  not  the  pressure  you  are 
speaking  of  came  from  within  some  Government  agency,  or  without? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  mean  you  have  no  recollection  ? 


1064  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  have  no  recollection. 

Mr.  TAi'ENNER,  As  you  look  back  upon  that  occasion  now,  are  you 
aware  of  anything  that  you  would  now  call  pressure  having  been 
brought  to  bear  upon  you  by  any  member  of  Lend-Lease  Administra- 
tion, directly  or  indirectly? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No.  I  don't  think  pressure  would  be  a  proper 
term  to  use.  Lend-Lease  was  anxious  to  cooperate  with  the  Russians. 
They  were  our  allies.  I  think  that  was  policy.  Naturally,  Lend- 
Lease  was  doing  everything  possible  to  get  material  for  our  allies. 
But  I  don't  know  of  any  instance  when  anybody  attempted  to  exercise 
undue  pressure  on  me. 

(Representative  McSweeney  enters  the  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Or  on  any  member  of  your  staff  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Or  on  any  member  of  my  staff. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Does  that  apply  to  BEW? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes ;  the  same  there. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  what  about  the  War  Production  Board? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  The  same. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  Did  you  learn  during  the  course  of  your  employment 
that  the  export  license  which  had  been  issued  for  the  500  pounds  of 
uranium  nitrate  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide  on  April  23,  1943, 
was  amended  on  April  29, 1943  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Was  the  question  of  amendment  of  the  license  ever 
brought  to  your  attention  by  an  official  of  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare,  which  was  the  licensing  agency,  or  the  Lend-Lease  Admin- 
istration ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  remember  that.  If  an  amendment  was 
made  it  probably  would  have  been  brought  to  my  attention,  directly 
or  indirectly,  however. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  the  time  when  you  were  concerned  with  the  source 
of  all  material  of  this  character  in  the  United  States,  and  when  you 
were  actively  engaged  in  protecting  it,  was  the  question  of  amendment, 
which  would  indicate  a  new  source  of  supply  had  been  located,  a  very 
important  matter  to  your  group  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  It  would  not  necessarily  have  been,  in  that  there 
could  have  been  manj^  reasons  for  amendment.  As  I  recall  the  prac- 
tice on  export  licensing,  it  seems  to  me  an  amendment  was  required 
even  if  it  was  a  price  change,  so  it  might  or  might  not  have  been  im- 
portant. 

Mr.  TA^^:NNER.  But  if  on  the  22d  of  April  you  had  succeeded  in 
stopping  or  barricading  compliance  by  Shattuck,  then  the  amendment 
at  a  later  date  for  any  reason  would  show  a  reactivation  of  intei-est 
in  that  license,  wouldn't  it? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes.  Well,  not  necessarily,  because  it  may  have 
been  the  intent  to  allow  that  license  to  stand  as  a  blanket  license,  giv- 
ing the  Russians  what  we  might  term  a  fishing  license  to  get  the  mate- 
rial if  they  could,  therefore  we  were  cooperating  with  them. 

Mr.  Ta^-enner.  When  that  license  was  prepared  in  the  terms  of  the 
original  contract  with  Shattuck  Co.,  that  was  true,  but  when  a  few 
days  later  they  changed  its  terms,  wouldn't  that  indicate  they  had 
found  a  new  source  of  supply,  otherwise  there  woidd  be  no  reason  for  a 
change  ? 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1065 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  In  the  licensing  procedure  I  assume  that  the 
exact  quantity  must  be  shown  before  the  license  could  be  issued.  I 
don't  remember  that  point. 

Mr.  Taat:nner.  It  showed  the  description  of  the  material  and  the 
price  and  the  supplier. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Well,  then,  presumably  that  should  have  been 
an  indication  that  something  was  going  on. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Would  an  amendment  be  made  to  an  export  license 
without  conferring  again  with  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District 
where  the  original  license  had  been  approved  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Not  unless  someone  in  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare  did  a  lot  of  assuming. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  What  do  you  mean  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  That  is,  unless  they  had  assumed,  because  we 
once  had  authorized  the  license  to  be  issued,  we  wanted  it  to  stand  in 
the  case  of  changes.     That  seems  unlikely. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  know  of  the 
general  opposition  of  the  Manhattan  District  to  the  sale  of  uranium 
for  export  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  They  must  have  inferred  that  from  the  diffi- 
culty in  getting  export  licenses  for  the  material.  I  don't  think  we 
ever  stated  to  them  specifically  that  we  did  not  want  to  ship  it  to  the 
Russians.  I  think  that  would  have  been  an  unwise  statement  to  have 
made  at  the  time  to  another  Government  agency. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  As  far  as  you  know,  there  was  no  reference  of  the 
matter  back  to  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  on  the  question 
of  amendment  of  the  license  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Not  to  my  recollection. 

(Representative  Velde  leaves  the  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Wood.  If  the  fact  that  this  particular  export  license  was 
amended  so  as  to  include  a  different  source  of  supply  had  come  to 
your  attention  before  the  shipment  was  made  and  the  deal  closed,  what 
would  have  been  your  attitude  about  it  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  we  immediately  would  have  tried  to 
find  out  what  this  other  source  was,  and  immediately  taken  steps  to 
block  that  also. 

Mr.  Wood.  To  block  it? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  we  would  have ;  yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  That  had  been  your  policy  before  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  And  wouldn't  it  particularly  have  been  your  policy  if 
you  found  that  supplier  was  under  contract  to  you  to  give  the  Govern- 
ment first  option  on  all  material  it  was  within  its  power  to  control? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes.  I  think  the  answer  to  that  is  "Yes," 
although  it  needs  some  amplification. 

Mr.  Wood.  Let's  see  if  it  does.  You  say  the  source  of  supply  that 
finally  furnished  this  material  under  an  amended  license  was  under 
an  agreement  to  you  prior  to  the  date  of  shipment.  If  it  had  come 
to  your  attention  that  this  source  of  supply  was  seeking  to  sell  this 
material  that  was  under  option  to  you  to  the  Russians  or  any  other 
country  on  which  there  was  a  ban,  would  you  have  taken  any  action? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  We  would  have  attempted  to  do  so,  but  I  don't 
know  that  we  could  have  done  so  legally,  even  under  the  terms  of  the 


1066  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

contract.     There  are  several  ramifications  on  that  which  I  can  explain, 
if  you  wish. 

Mr.  Wood.  My  purpose  in  asking  the  question  was  to  find  out  what 
your  attitude  would  have  been. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  We  would  have  attempted  to  block  it.  I  am 
sure  of  that. 

Mr.  Ta\t3XNER.  Assuming  Chematar  was  the  supplier  through 
which  both  Shattuck  Co.  and  the  Canadian  Eadimn  &  Uranium  Corp. 
furnished  the  material,  do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  license  would 
have  been  in  the  name  of  the  agent  rather  than  in  the  name  of  the 
actual  supplier  ?     Do  you  know  what  the  practice  was  ? 

Colonel  Crensiix\w.  No. 

Mr.  Taa'enner.  You  don't  know  if  it  was  the  practice  to  have  the 
license  in  the  name  of  the  agent  rather  than  the  supplier  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  recall  that. 

(Eepresentative  Kearney  leaves  the  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  you  familiar  with  the  handling  of  heavy- 
water  transactions  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No.    That  was  outside  my  department  entirely. 

Mr.  Ta\"enner.  Whose  department  was  that  in  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Colonel  Nichols  himself  handled  most  of  that 
directly. 

Mr.  Taat.nner.  Do  you  know  whether  any  requests  were  submitted 
to  the  INIanhattan  Engineering  project  with  regard  to  the  approval  of 
sales  of  heavy  water? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  have  no  knowledge  of  any  request. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  heavy  water  considered  at  that  time  a  strategic 
material,  that  is,  during  1943,  1944,  and  1945,  by  Manhattan  Engi- 
neering District? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  It  was  by  Manhattan  District. 

]\Ir.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  if  the  other  Government  agencies 
knew  of  that  appraisal  that  Manhattan  Engineering  District  placed 
on  the  material? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  very  much  doubt  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  that  information  was  solely  the  information  of 
Manhattan  Engineering  District,  what  safeguard  could  be  placed  upon 
the  sale  for  export  of  heavy  water  by  the  action  of  other  Govern- 
ment agencies,  if  no  agency  but  your  own  knew  about  the  importance 
of  it? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  It  would  have  been  possible  to  do  the  same  thing 
we  did  with  uranium,  that  is,  to  require  approval  of  export  licenses, 
but  that  would  have  called  attention  to  heavy  water. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  All  materials  the  Russians  asked  for  were  not  sub- 
mitted to  you  to  see  whether  you  were  interested  in  them,  were  they  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  No.  But  had  we  gone  to  BEW  and  requested 
them  to  advise  us  of  any  requests  for  licenses  for  heavy  water,  that 
would  have  been  an  indication  we  were  interested  in  heavy  water. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Does  that  mean  that  the  matter  was  of  such  a  secret 
character  that  you  would  not  even  want  to  inform  the  responsible 
heads  of  other  Government  agencies  of  the  importance  of  the  material  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  That  is  correct,  unless  it  was  considered  very 
important  to  control  it.  There,  again,  heavy  water  was  being  pro- 
duced commercially,  but  it  was  almost  a  laboratory  curiosity. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1067 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  how  it  occurred  that  the  matter  of 
uranium  was  first  taken  up  with  the  Manhattan  Engineering  Dis- 
trict at  the  time  the  export  license  for  the  first  shipment  had  been 
issued  ?  Was  it  the  result  of  initiative  on  the  part  of  the  Manhattan 
Engineering  District,  or  on  the  part  of  some  other  Government 
agency  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  recall  how  that  matter  came  to  our  at- 
tention. I  think  we  got  a  routine  list  of  all  requests  for  uranium 
compounds. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  character  of  that  list?  I  haven  t 
heard  of  it  before. 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Periodically — I  don't  remember  how  often — 
it  is  my  recollection  that  either  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  or 
Lend-Lease  or  both  submitted  to  us  a  list  of  all  requests  for  uranium 
compounds.  In  addition,  after  the  controls  were  put  on  the  use  of 
uranium  in  the  ceramics  industry,  we  got  a  list  showing  all  uranium 
transactions  in  the  ceramics  industry,  which  had  to  be  approved  by 
BEW,  I  believe,  and  indirectly  by  us. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  have  located  one  list  furnished  by  Lend-Lease 
in  July  1943,  or  it  may  have  been  1944,  of  transactions  which  had  pre- 
viously occurred  with  regard  to  uranium,  but  was  any  list  furnished 
at  an  earlier  date  than  that  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes,  sir ;  I  am  sure  that  it  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  that  list  relate  solely  to  the  uranium  com- 
pounds, or  did  it  relate  to  chemicals  generally  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  To  the  best  of  my  recollection  it  related  to 
uranium  compounds  only. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  was  a  report  of  that  character  first  sub- 
mitted? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  It  must  have  been  certainly  as  early  as  March 
1943,  and  undoubtedly  prior  to  that  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  whose  instance  was  that  report  filed  and 
prepared  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  that  was  an  arrangement  which  Mr. 
Burman  was  able  to  negotiate  with  Lend-Lease  and/or  BEW. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  from  the  time  that  request  was  made,  those 
organizations  would  have  known  of  the  importance  of  that  material  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  have  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Case. 

Mr.  Case.  In  all,  how  many  requests  for  uranium  compounds  from 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  came  to  the  attention  of  the 
Chemical  Warfare  Service  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  can't  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Case.  How  many  came  to  your  attention? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  recall  only  one.    There  may  have  been  others. 

Mr.  Case.  That  one  was  for  how  much  and  what? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  believe  the  exact  quantities  were  covered  in  a 
letter  which  you  showed  me  earlier,  Mr.  Tavenner.  I  don't  recall  the 
exact  quantities. 

Mr.  Case.  Were  you  aware  of  a  request  for  uranium  materials  in 
the  summer  of  1943  ? 


c-r 


1068  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  If  it  was  prior  to  the  1st  of  July,  I  was  no 
longer  in  that  particular  department  of  the  district. 

Mr.  Case.  Prior  to  July  1, 1943? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  either  hear  or  know  of  a  renewal  of  that  request 
hi  1944? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  think  I  have  heard  of  it  indirectly,  but  not  in 
an  official  capacity. 

Mr.  Case.  When  did  you  hear  of  it  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  couldn't  answer  that,  sir.  It  must  have  been 
during  my  service  with  Manhattan  District.  It  could  even  have  been 
after  that  time. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  any  request  for  uranium  compounds  from  any  com- 
pany or  any  purchasing  commission  other  than  that  of  the  Soviet 
Union  come  to  your  attention  when  you  were  connected  with  the 
Chemical  Warfare  Service  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  was  not  connected  with  the  Chemical  War- 
fare Service,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  Well,  in  your  capacity  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Will  you  repeat  that  question  ? 

Mr.  Case.  Did  any  request  for  uranium  compounds  from  any  pur- 
chasing commission  other  than  that  of  the  Soviet  Union  come  to  your 
attention  while  you  were  engaged  in  this  work? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  don't  recall  any  that  came  to  the  attention  of 
the  Manhattan  District.  The  British,  of  course,  were  interested  in  this 
material,  and  while  we  had  no  control,  all  the  shipments  to  Great 
Britain  were  taken  up  with  us  informally. 

Mr.  Case.  Shipments  of  uranium  to  Great  Britain  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Yes.  May  I  modify  that  "shipments"  to 
"shipment."    I  know  of  only  one. 

Mr.  Case.  Which  one  was  that  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  believe  it  was  made  in  the  spring  of  1943. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  know  how  much  and  what  it  was  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  Approximately  15  tons  of  uranium  oxide. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  about  sales  to  the  French  Government  ? 

Colonel  Crenshaw.  I  know  of  none,  sir.  France  was  occupied 
at  that  time,  and  we  normally  would  have  had  no  transactions  with 
them. 

Mr.  Wood.  In  view  of  the  continued  persistence  of  the  quorum  bells, 
I  will  adjourn  the  committee  until  10  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

(Thereupon,  at  3  p.  m.  on  Wednesday,  January  25, 1950,  an  adjourn- 
ment was  taken  until  Thursday,  January  26,  1950,  at  10  a.  m.) 


H BAKINGS  EEGARDING  SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATEEIAL 
TO  THE  SOVIET  UNION  DUKING  WOKLD  WAR  II 


THURSDAY,  JANUARY  26,   1950 

United  States  House  of  RErRESENTATiVES, 

Committee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

Washington^  D.  C. 

PUBLIC    HEARINGS 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  adjournment,  at  10 :  30  a.  m.,  in 
room  226,  Old  House  Office  Building,  Hon.  John  S.  Wood  (chairman) 
presiding. 

Committee  members  present :  Eepresentatives  John  S.  Wood  (chair- 
man). Francis  E.  Walter,  Morgan  M.  Moulder,  Richard  M.  Nixon, 
Francis  Case,  Harold  H.  Velde,  and  Bernard  W.  Kearney. 

Staff  members  present:  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  counsel;  Louis  J. 
Russell,  senior  investigator;  Donald  T.  Appell  and  Courtney  Owens, 
investigators;  John  W.  Carrington,  clerk;  Benjamin  Mandel,  direc- 
tor of  research ;  and  A.  S.  Poore,  editor. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  be  in  order. 

If  there  are  any  Members  of  Congress  present  in  the  audience,  they 
are  invited  to  come  up  and  sit  W' ith  the  committee. 

Mr.  Counsel,  are  you  ready  to  proceed  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes,  sir.  Mr.  Chairman,  as  you  are  aware,  soon 
after  the  appearance  of  Gen.  Leslie  R.  Groves  before  this  committee 
on  December  7,  1949,  Mr.  Henry  A.  Wallace  expressed  a  desire  to 
appear  before  this  committee.  The  committee,  at  its  first  meeting 
after  that,  unanimously  agreed  to  his  appearance,  and  Mr.  Wallace  is 
now  here  as  a  volunteer  witness.    May  he  be  called  at  this  time? 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection  on  the  part  of  the  committee,  yes. 

Mr.  Wallace,  it  is  noted  that  there  are  several  photographers  here 
from  the  press.  It  is  a  rule  of  this  committee  that  a  witness  brought 
before  it  shall  not  be  photographed  without  his  permission.  Do  you 
object  to  having  your  picture  made  by  the  photographers? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No ;  I  have  no  objection,  although  I  would  prefer  if 
they  get  them  out  of  the  way  soon,  because  if  they  continue  to  wait 
for  some  abnormal  posture,  they  create  some  confusion.  If  we  could 
just  get  it  out  of  the  way  now  I  would  appreciate  it.  If  they  want  me 
to  make  certain  kinds  of  gestures,  I  don't  mind. 

(Photographs  were  taken.) 

Mr.  Wallace.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  understand  that  the  stenographer 
is  going  to  make  a  special  effort  to  get  the  transcript  of  questions  and 
answers  ready  as  soon  as  possible,  and  would  it  be  all  right  to  circu- 
late it  among  the  press  that  they  can,  at  a  certain  place,  get  the  tran- 
script of  questions  and  answers? 

^  1069 


1070  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  certain  those  arrangements  can  be  made  with 
the  reporter.    She  is  very  accommodating  about  matters  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Wallace,  Certain  members  of  the  press  approached  me  as  to 
whether  I  would  be  so  kind  to  provide  that  service  myself,  and  I  said 
I  would  in  case  the  committee  was  not  in  position  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Wood.  We  must  have  order  in  the  committee  room,  ladies  and 
gentlemen,  at  all  times. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr,  Chairman,  may  I  suggest  for  the  sake  of  orderly 
procedure  that  the  witness  be  sworn  and  I  be  permitted  to  make  certain 
inquiries  relating  to  the  subject  under  investigation,  after  which  the 
witness  be  given  an  opportunity  to  explain  any  matter  relevant  to  the 
investigation  which  is  not  covered  by  my  examination. 

Mr,  Wood,  If  you  will  stand,  Mr.  Wallace,  and  be  sworn,  please,  sir. 
Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  evidence  you  give  this  committee  shall  be 
the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mr.  Wallace,  I  do  so  solemnly  swear, 

TESTIMONY  OF  HENRY  A.  WALLACE 

Mr,  Tavenner,  Mr.  Wallace,  were  you  a  member  of  the  War  Pro- 
duction Board,  and,  if  so,  over  what  period  of  time  did  you  serve  as 
a  member? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  was  a  member  of  the  War  Production  Board  and 
the  predecessor  group,  the  Supply,  Priorities,  and  Allocation  Board, 
which  was  set  up  in  late  August  or  early  September  19-11.  I  was  Chair- 
man of  that  Board,  and  if  it  met  with  the  desire  of  the  committee  would 
go  into  considerable  details  as  to  why  I  was  made  Chairman. 

That  Board  was  replaced  about  January  15,  191:2,  by  the  War  Pro- 
duction Board.  I  remained  as  a  member  of  the  War  Production 
Board  in  my  capacity  as  head  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  and 
continued  as  a  member  until  July  19  or  20,  1943,  at  which  time  I  wrote 
a  letter  to  Mr,  Donald  Nelson  resigning  from  the  Board,  and  on  July  21 
I  find  in  my  records  a  letter  to  the  President  of  the  United  States  in- 
dicating why  I  resigned  from  the  Board  at  that  time, 

JNIr.  Tavenner.  ^^^lo  was  Chairman  of  the  Board  during  the  year 
1943  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Of  the  War  Production  Board  ? 

Mr.  Ta"\^nner.  Yes;  of  the  War  Production  Board. 

Mr,  Wallace.  Mr.  Donald  Nelson. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  Who  were  the  members  of  the  Board  at  that  time 
beside  yourself? 

Mr,  Wallace,  That  is  a  matter  of  record.  They  were  the  heads 
of  the  armed  services,  the  Secretary  of  Commerce,  the  Secretary  of 
State — it  is  a  matter  of  the  public  record.  There  were  quite  a  number. 
I  think  War  Manpower  was  represented.  I  think  you  must  have  that 
■iilready  in  your  records. 

Mr,  Ta\^nner.  Yes.  I  will  just  ask  you  this :  Was  there  representa- 
tion on  that  Board  of  other  Government  agencies,  such  as  the  Office 
of  Lend-Lease? 

Mr,  Wallace,  Yes;  I  am  quite  sure  the  Office  of  Lend-Lease  was 
there,  Harry  Hopkins,  so  far  as  I  recollect,  did  not  sit  in  on  the  War 
Production  Board  meetings. 

Mr,  Ta\'enner.  Incidentally,  I  see  you  are  accompanied  by  a  gentle- 
man here.    Are  you  represented  by  counsel  ? 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1071 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes.  This  is  Mr.  Walter  Freedman,  who  used  to  be 
an  attorney  with  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  dealing  especially 
with  the  export  licenses,  and  I  have  asked  him  to  come  both  in  that  ca- 
pacity and  as  counsel.    Freedman  is  spelled  F-r-e-e-d-m-a-n. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  what  is  his  first  name  and  middle  initial  ? 

Mr.  Freedman.  Walter.    There  is  no  middle  initial. 

Mr.  TA^^ENNER.  And  your  address?     [Addressing  Mr.  Freedman.] 

Mr.  Freedman.  Washington  Building,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Briefly,  what  were  your  duties  as  a  member  of  the 
War  Production  Board  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  When  Mr.  Samuel  Rosenman  approached  me,  at  the 
suggestion  of  President  Roosevelt,  that  I  sit  on  SPAB — Supply,  Prior- 
ities, and  Allocation  Board — it  was  suggested  that  my  place  on  SPAB 
was  particularly  to  represent  those  foreign  countries  that  were  not 
under  lend-lease.  The  Supply,  Priorities,  and  Allocation  Board  had 
to  do  with  the  allotment  of  the  production  of  the  United  States.  The 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare  was  particularly  concerned  with  Latin 
America,  Therefore  it  was  felt  that  there  should  be  representation  on 
the  War  Production  Board  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare. 

There  was  also  another  reason  why  I  was  on  the  SPAB  which  is 
not  particularly  germane  to  the  subject  under  discussion  today,  and 
that  is  because  there  was  a  serious  disagreement  among  the  predeces- 
sor agency — I  believe  it  was  0PM — between  certain  groups.  One 
group  thought  we  ought  to  stop  all  production  of  automobiles,  for 
example,  so  that  we  could  produce  more  tanks.  We  .were  not  in  the 
war  yet.  Another  group  thought  we  should  go  ahead  producing 
automobiles. 

The  President  and  Samuel  Rosenman  came  to  the  conclusion  that  I, 
by  reason  of  my  office,  could  step  in  and  establish  a  chain  of  command 
that  would  stop  the  discord  and  make  a  firm  policy  at  this  time  when 
we  were  not  in  the  war.  In  other  words,  they  invoked  the  prestige 
of  my  office  to  get  a  job  done  they  would  not  get  done  any  other  way. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  devote  quite  a  bit  of  time  and  attention  to 
the  duties  of  your  office  on  that  Board  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  As  chairman  of  SPAB,  I  did.  This  was  in  the  fall 
of  1941.  I  am  very  proud  of  the  work  that  I  did  at  that  time  in 
connection  with  Donald  Nelson.  I  think  we  did  a  remarkable  job 
that  made  a  very  great  difference  in  the  later  war  effort.  But  after 
Donald  Nelson  became  Chairman  of  the  War  Production  Board  my 
activities  were  not  so  great. 

Mr.  TA^nENNER.  But  they  were  great  enough  so  that  you  were  fa- 
miliar with  the  general  procedural  requirements  regarding  the  trans- 
actions of  the  War  Production  Board,  were  they  not  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No.  You  see,  the  President  urged  me,  when  I  took 
on  both  of  these  duties,  which  were  not  customary  for  Vice  Presidents, 
as  you  well  recognize,  that  I  not  get  into  administration  details.  He 
urged  me  not  to  do  that  in  the  first  instance.  I  was,  of  course,  enor- 
mously concerned  with  getting  the  greatest  possible  production,  and 
when  something  came  up  in  connection  with  rubber,  for  instance,  in 
which  I  was  intensely  interested,  I  took  a  definite  interest  because 
I  had  a  competence  in  the  field ;  but  with  regard  to  the  general  run  of 
War  Production  Board  activities,  I  did  not  take  a  detailed  interest. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  War  Production  Board  was,  however,  vitally 


1072  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

concerned  not  only  with  the  production  but  the  control  of  material 
that  had  been  produced.    Isn't  that  correct? 

Mr.  Wallace.  And  the  Supply,  Priorities,  and  Allocation  Bof^rd 
set  up  the  conditions  under  which  the  controls  were  put  in  effect. 

Mr.  Tav^enxer.  And  when  any  matter  of  policy  was  involved  in 
questions  that  would  arise  in  the  functioning  of  the  Board,  you  were 
actJA^e  and  participated  in  those  matters? 

Mr.  Wallace.  When  they  were  brought  up  to  the  Board  level,  and 
there  is  always  a  question  of  what  was. 

Mr.  Taa-exner.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  committee  known  as 
the  ]Military  Policy  Committee  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Not  to  the  best  of  my  recollection.  You  mean  of 
the  War  Production  Board? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Whether  it  was  an  adjunct  of  the  War  Production 
Board  or  not,  I  can't  say. 

Mr.  Wallace.  There  was  a  Military  Policy  Committee  that  had  to 
do  with  the  atom  bomb.  That  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  War  Pro- 
duction Board. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  understand. 

Mr.  Wallace.  No;  I  was  not  connected  with  the  Military  Policy 
Committee. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  Were  you  connected  with  that  Committee  in  any 
way? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No;  I  was  not  connected  with  that  Committee.  If 
you  want  to  go  into  the  entire  atomic-bomb  matter,  I  can  go  into  it 
chronologically. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes ;  we  would  like  to  know  what  your  connection 
was  with  the  atomic-bomb  project. 

Mr.  Wallace.  The  whole  matter  of  atomic  energy  was  first  brought 
to  my  attention  by  matters  in  public  print  in  1939  and  1940.  In  one 
of  the  popular  magazines  there  was  an  article  about  U-235  in  1939 ; 
and  on  May  5.  1940,  there  was  an  article  by  William  E.  Lawrence  of 
the  New  York  Times;  it  was  on  the  front  page,  and  went  into  the 
details  of  U-235. 

Then  it  was  brought  to  my  attention  in  a  strong  way  by  Dr.  Vanne- 
var  Bush  on  June  29, 1940,  when  I  was  Secretary  of  Agriculture.  He 
told  me  about  the  job  that  had  just  been  assigned  to  him  by  President 
Roosevelt.  Dr.  Vannevar  Bush  and  I  had  known  each  other  for  some 
time,  we  had  mutual  acquaintances,  and  I  think  he  had  respect  for  my 
scientific  ability.  So  he  told  me  of  this  job  that  had  been  assigned 
to  him  by  President  Roosevelt  a  short  time  previously. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  that  job  that  was  assigned  to  him? 

Mr.  Wallace.  He  was  assigned  the  job  of  looking  into  the  possibili- 
ties of  using  U-235  to  make  an  atom  bomb. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  serve  on  the  Committee  with  him  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  If  you  will  allow  me  to  go  ahead  with  the  chronology, 
I  will  indicate  just  how  that  worked  out. 

Mr.  Taatenner.  Very  well. 

Mr.  Wallace.  As  I  remember  it,  he  did  not  come  to  see  me  again 
until  July  23  of  1941,  after  I  was  Vice  President.  In  the  former  meet- 
ing he  had  indicated  that  the  Kaiser  Wilhelm  Institute  in  Berlin  was 
working  very  hard  on  this  matter  of  making  an  atomic  bomb.  In  this 
July  23,  1941,  meeting,  he  said  that  it  now  looked  much  more  possible 


SHIPMENT   OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1073 

to  make  a  bomb  than  it  had  when  he  had  seen  me  before,  and  at  this  time 
we  swore  each  other  to  secrecy.  And  then,  I  guess  Pearl  Harbor  came. 
I  have  these  dates  written  down.  I  want  to  be  sure  of  getting  this 
just  right.  I  don't  want  to  do  too  much  from  memory  on  this.  I 
think  I  had  better  read  this  off. 

It  was  in  tlie  fall  of  1941  that  a  Top  Policy  Committee  was  formed 
composed  of  myself,  I  was  the  ranking  member  of  it,  I  would  assume; 
the  Secretary  of  War,  Secretary  Stimson ;  Chief  of  Staff,  General  Mar- 
shall ;  Dr.  Bush ;  and  Dr.  Conant. 

This  Top  Policy  Committee  was  very  important  in  the  early  stage 
of  the  game,  but  had  no  importance  after  the  construction  really 
started.     It  was  very  important  in  1941  and  1942. 

We  held  a  meeting  in  my  office  in  the  Senate  Office  Building  on 
December  16,  1941,  9  days  after  Pearl  Harbor,  w^liich  was  attended 
by  Secretary  Stimson,  by  Dr.  Vannevar  Bush,  myself,  and  Harold 
Smith.  Harold  Smith  was  not  a  member  of  the  committee,  but 
Harold  Smith  attended  in  his  capacity  as  Director  of  the  Budget. 
The  work  hitherto  had  largely  been  of  a  research  nature,  and  it  was 
now  apparent  that  large  sums  of  money  were  going  to  be  involved. 
This  was  an  absolutely  secret  thing,  and  I  think  it  is  one  of  the 
miracles  of  the  war  that  it  was  kept  so  absolutely  secret;  nobody 
talked;  but  the  question  was  how  to  get  large  sums  of  money  and 
yet  maintain  absolute  secrecj'.  That  was  the  problem  before  this 
December  16,  1941,  meeting  of  the  top  policy  committee.  Therefore, 
Harold  Smith  was  present  and  rendered  very  valuable  service  in  find- 
ing some  way  of  getting  the  money.  What  he  did,  I  don't  know,  but 
he  did  get  very  large  sums  of  money. 

At  that  meeting  it  was  decided  that  certain  pilot  plants  should  be 
started.  Dr.  I3ush  came  in  to  see  me  several  times  during  1942  with 
regard  to  signing  reports  to  be  transmitted  to  the  President. 

The  only  two  times  the  Top  Policy  Committee  met  that  I  am  aware 
of  were  on  this  December  16,  1941,  and  on  September  23,  1942.  The 
only  meeting  I  attended  was  the  December  16,  1941,  meeting.  I 
just  returned  from  out  of  town  during  the  day  on  September  23,  and 
did  not  attend  that  meeting.  That  was  the  meeting  which  General 
Groves  attended  for  the  first  time,  as  I  understand  it.  Because  I 
didn't  attend  the  meeting,  I  did  not  meet  General  Groves  at  that  time. 
So  far  as  I  can  determine  from  consulting  my  record,  I  did  not  meet 
General  Groves  until  April  14,  1944. 

I  talked  with  Dr.  Vannevar  Bush  yesterday  to  confirm  my  recollec- 
tion, and  I  asked  him  what  was  his  recollection  of  the  relationship 
between  the  Military  Policy  Committee  which  w^as  set  up  in  the  fall 
of  1942  with  General  Groves  as  the  executive  officer,  what  was  the 
relationship,  the  chain  of  command,  and  his  recollection  was  the 
same  as  mine,  that  General  Groves  was  under  the  Military  Policy 
Committee  and  had  no  business  reporting  to  the  Top  Policy  Committee 
unless  he  was  so  directed  by  the  Military  Policy  Committee.  In  other 
words,  the  Top  Policy  Committee,  after  that  second  meeting  on  Sep- 
tember 23,  1942,  really  ceased  to  have  active  existence.  However,  if 
any  matter  of  unusual,  broad  significance  came  up  outside  the  field  of 
military  competence,  I  have  no  doubt  that  Dr.  Bush  would  have  con- 
sulted me.  The  chain  of  command  was  from  Dr.  Bush  to  me,  rather 
than  General  Groves,  unless  General  Groves  was  delegated  by  Dr. 
Bush  or  Secretary  Stimson  to  consult  me. 

99334 — .50 1 2 


1074  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

The  only  matter  of  broad  policy  that  came  up  after  the  second 
meeting  of  the  Top  Policy  Committee  of  September  23,  1942,  had  to 
do  with  the  sharing  of  certain  construction  details  of  the  atom  bomb 
with  Great  Britain,  That  is  my  recollection  of  it.  And  Dr.  Vannevar 
Bush  came  to  see  me  about  that  on  two  separate  occasions  after  that 
September  23,  1942,  meeting. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Although  there  were  only  two  occasions,  you  state, 
when  meetings  of  the  Top  Policy  Committee  were  held,  there  were  sub- 
sequent occasions,  were  there  not,  when  the  individual  members  of 
that  committee  met  informally  and  discussed  problems  'i 

Mr.  Wallace.  None,  so  far  as  I  know.  There  probably  were  meet- 
ings, I  would  assume,  l3etween  Dr.  Bush  and  Dr.  Conant,  or  between 
Dr.  Bush,  Dr.  Conant,  and  Secretary  Stimson.  You  see,  this  became, 
after  September  1942,  a  military  effort,  and  Dr.  Bush  was  working 
closely  with  the  military,  and  Dr.  Conant,  Dr.  Bush's  assistant,  was 
working  very  closely  with  the  military.  Secretary  Stimson,  of  course, 
was  Secretary  of  War,  and  General  Marshall  was  Chief  of  Staff.  I 
was  the  only  one  not  in  the  military  activity.  They  may  have  had 
frequent  meetings,  but  I  never  sat  on  any  of  them. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Who  was  chairman  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Of  the  Top  Policy  Committee  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wallace.  So  far  as  I  know,  I  was  the  ranking  member.  The 
first  meeting  was  held  in  my  office.  After  that,  actually  the  man  who 
was  at  work  continuously  on  the  problem  was  the  man  who  had  been 
designated  by  President  Roosevelt  on  June  15,  1940,  Dr.  Vannevar 
Bush.  He  was  the  man  who  had  been  delegated  by  President  Roose- 
velt to  work  on  the  problem,  and  he  was  the  man  who  really  determined 
if  a  meeting  was  to  be  held.    He  was  the  man  who  had  all  the  contacts. 

From  what  Dr.  Bush  told  me.  Dr.  Bush  had  frequent  contacts  w^ith 
the  President,  and,  from  what  Dr.  Bush  told  me,  the  President,  during 
these  early  stages,  wanted  these  matters  cleared  with  me,  because  I 
was  second  in  command  in  the  Nation.  Also,  the  President  at  that 
time  had,  I  think,  considerable  confidence  in  my  scientific  judgment. 

I  do  know  I  talked  to  the  President  about  the  importance  of  the 
l^roject  and  why  it  was  important  to  back  it  with  sufficient  money. 
That  was  in  the  early  stages,  when  it  was  getting  off  the  ground.  My 
significance  after  1942, 1  would  say,  in  regard  to  this,  was  practically 
nil.  That  doesn't  reflect  on  me  or  doesn't  reflect  on  anybody  else.  It 
had  passed  out  of  the  scientific  stage  into  the  construction  stage. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  only  asking  for  the  facts. 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  you  the  presiding  officer  at  the  meeting  of  the 
Top  Policy  Committee  which  you  attended  ^ 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  can't  answer  that,  for  the  simple  reason  I  do  not 
have  any  notes  in  my  records  in  regard  to  tliat.  It  was  held  in  my 
office,  and,  knowing  how  I  act  in  situations  of  that  kind,  I  presume  it 
was  an  absolutely  informal  thing.  Secretary  Stimson,  Vannevar 
Bush,  and  myself  talked  it  over.  ''We  just  got  into  a  war,  and  the 
Germans  are  hard  at  work  on  this,  how  are  we  going  to  get  this  job 
done?"  There  was  nobody  there  to  take  any  minutes  of  the  meeting. 
Harold  Smith,  Director  of  the  Budget,  may  have  taken  some.  He  is 
dead.    Secretary  Stimson,  I  understand,  is  not  in  the  best  of  health. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1075 

General  Marshall  was  not  there.    The  only  one  I  think  would  have 
specific  information  about  that  meeting  is  Dr.  Bush. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  British  problem  you  mentioned  a  while  ago, 
what  was  the  general  character  of  that  problem  which  the  Top  Policy 
Committee  had  to  deal  with,  and  when  did  that  problem  arise? 

Mr.  Wallace.  On  December  20,  1942,  Vannevar  Bush  came  to  see 
me  about  it,  and  said  that  there  was  a  disagreement  between  ourselves 
and  the  British  in  regard  to  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  regard  to  what  ? 

Mr.  AVallace.  How  much  information  should  be  given  the  British 
with  regard  to  construction  details.  The  British  had  been  very  help- 
ful to  us  in  regard  to  scientific  matters. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Had  the  work  of  the  Manhattan  Engineering  Dis- 
trict progressed  at  that  time,  in  December  1942,  to  an  advanced  stage 
in  the  making  of  original  plans  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  To  the  best  of  my  knowledge  I  knew  nothing  about 
the  Manliattan  district  until  Harold  Smith  told  me  the  name  of  the 
district  in  May  1945.  I  didn't  know  anything  about  the  work  as  it 
progressed.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  didn't  want  to  know.  This  was 
back  in  1941  and  1942,  and  all  I  wanted  to  know  was  that  the  work 
was  being  pushed  with  vigor.  I  had  great  confidence  in  Dr.  Bush, 
felt  he  was  a  man  of  unique  capacity,  and  wanted  the  President  to  push 
the  work.  I  didn't  know  the  name  of  the  project  or  where  they  had 
the  project,  but  I  assumed  Dr.  Bush  was  doing  his  job. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  As  a  member  of  this  Top  Policy  Committee,  wasn't 
it  your  duty  to  determine  that  work  was  progressing  and  that  some- 
thing was  being  done  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Not  after  September  1942.     Not  after  it  passed  over 

to  the  military. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  After  that,  on  December  20,  1942,  you  were  inter- 
viewed by  Dr.  Bush  regarding  the  extent  to  which  Great  Britain 
was  to  be  informed  on  policy  or  experiment? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes.  Dr.  Bush  came  to  me  on  December  20,  1942. 
I  don't  know  whether  he  came  to  me  to  determine  if  there  was  a  line 
to  be  followed.  This  thing  was  so  secret  I  don't  think  any  definite 
line  was  ever  set  up.  You  couldn't  reduce  things  to  writing.  It  is 
quite  probable,  knowing  the  way  Dr.  Bush  and  the  President  worked, 
that  the  President  said  to  Dr.  Bush:  "Now,  you  had  better  go  see 
Henry  about  this."    That  would  be  my  guess. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  And  your  discussion  at  this  conference  was  the  ex- 
tent to  which  you  would  furnish  materials  or  equipment  needed  in  the 
manufacturing  of  the  atomic  bomb  to  Great  Britain? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  never  came  up.     Nothing  of  that  sort  ever  came 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  was  just  a  question  of  information  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  was  a  question  of  how  far  the  British  would  be 
permitted  to  get  certain  types  of  information. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  discuss  how  far  the  United  States  should 
go  in  giving  tlie  same  information  to  the  Soviet  Union  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  never  came  up,  nothing  of  that  sort. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Never  at  any  time? 

Mr.  Wallu\ce.  Never. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Gen.  Leslie  R.  Groves  testified  before  this  commit- 
tee on  December  7, 1949,  that  you  disassociated  yourself  from  the  Man- 


1076  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATEKIAL 

hattan  Engineering  District  project.  If  you  did  disassociate  yourself 
from  it,  when  did  that  occur  and  what  were  the  reasons  ? 

Mr.  Wallace,  I  think  what  I  said  previously  is  very  clear,  and 
General  Groves  obviously  was  not  familiar  with  the  relationship  be- 
tween the  Military  Policy  Committee  and  the  Top  Policy  Committee. 
You  will  find,  reading  his  testimony,  that  he  said  the  Military  Policy 
Committee  was  probably  under  the  Top  Policy  Committee.  He  really 
didn't  know,  and  there  was  no  reason  why  he  should  know.  Dr.  Bush 
tells  me  there  was  no  reason  why  General  Groves  should  have  ever 
come  to  me.  But  General  Groves  may  have  come  because  he  was  di- 
rected on  a  particular  occasion  by  Dr.  Bush  or  Secretary  Stimson,  or 
he  may  have  come  out  of  general  curiosity,  to  see  this  man  who  was 
connected  with  the  project  in  the  early  days. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  General  Groves  also  testified  that  for  reasons  of  his 
own  he  made  five  different  reports,  copies  of  which  he  gave  to  a  number 
of  the  members  of  this  Top  Policy  Committee,  and  he  further  testified 
he  gave  one  copy  to  you,  in  person.     Is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  is  what  he  testified,  I  believe.  I  am  not  sure 
whether  he  testified  it  or  said  it  to  newspaper  men. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  was  the  testimony  before  this  committee.  Is 
that  correct  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  You  have  the  record. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  think  you  understand,  Mr.  Wallace,  that  I  am  not 
asking  what  our  records  show,  but  I  am  asking  whether  or  not  it  was  a 
true  statement  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  don't  know  whether  General  Groves  gave  you  a 
copy  of  a  report  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  know  General  Groves  either  testified  before  this 
committee  or  stated  to  newspapermen  that  he  gave  me  a  report  in 
August  1943.  He  did  not  give  me  a  report  in  August  1943  so  far  as 
I  can  ascertain. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  the  question  I  asked  you  in  the  first  place. 

Mr.  Wallace.  He  did  not. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  he  call  at  your  office  and  discuss  the  matter  with 
you? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Not  in  August  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  did  he  call  and  discuss  the  matter  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  have  a  very  careful  record  of  that.  He  called  and 
gave  me  a  report  to  sign — and  my  guess  is  it  was  a  report  that  had  been 
signed  by  the  other  members  a  long  time  previously — on  April  14, 
1944,  at  11 :  15  in  the  morning.  On  that  occasion,  you  will  remember, 
General  Groves  stated  that  he  had  been  kept  waiting,  and  he  was  very 
much  annoyed  at  having  been  kept  waiting,  because  he  thought  the 
people  who  came  out  of  my  office  were  not  important  to  the  war  effort. 

I  know  that  the  man  in  my  office  immediately  preceding  General 
Groves  was  a  Latin-American  diplomat.  My  secretary  knew  nothing 
about  the  Manhattan  project,  knew  nothing  about  General  Groves, 
and  she  couldn't  tell  by  looking  at  General  Groves  that  he  was  a  very 
important  figure,  any  more  than  General  Groves  could  tell  by  looking 
at  the  Latin- American  diplomat,  when  he  came  out  of  my  office,  that 
he  was  an  important  figure. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Any  facts  or  circumstances  surrounding  that  meet- 
ing which  you  desire  to  state,  the  committee  will  be  glad  to  hear. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1077 

Mr.  Wallace.  The  two  things  I  have  in  my  record  made  at  the  time 
are  to  this  effect :  First,  that  he  gave  me  a  report  to  sign ;  that  I  read 
the  report ;  that  it  indicated  to  me  the  war  would  be  over  in  18  months ; 
and  that  General  Groves  said  that  he  was  going  to  chase  the  foreigners 
out  of  the  uranium  business. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  he  tell  you  to  whom  he  referred  as  the  foreign- 
ers? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No,  he  did  not. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  else  did  he  discuss  with  you  at  that  time,  or 
you  with  him,  relating  to  uranium? 

Mr.  Wallace.  He  said  nothing,  and  I  may  say  that  nobody  ever  said 
anything  to  me,  about  uranium  shipments,  to  the  best  of  my  recollec- 
tion. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  this  the  only  report,  of  the  five  which  General 
Groves  said  he  made,  that  you  saw  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  can  find  no  record  of  any  contact  with  General 
Groves  except  on  this  occasion.  I  have  looked  through  my  record  and 
can  find  no  other  contact  but  this  one  of  April  14,  1944.-^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Aside  from  your  contact  with  General  Groves,  did 
you  at  any  time  see  any  of  the  five  reports,  other  than  the  one  you 
have  testified  to? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Dr.  Vannevar  Bush  might  possibly  have  brought  me 
in  some  i-eport ;  I  don't  know.  He  brought  me  a  great  many  reports  in 
1942.  There  is  no  reason  why  he  should  have  brought  me  a  report  after 
1942.  There  was  no  reason  why  General  Groves  should  have  brought 
me  a  report  in  1944.  I  would  assume  it  would  have  been  through  Dr. 
Bush  if  I  saw  any  others,  because  I  knew  Vannevar  Bush  very  well. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  According  to  your  best  recollection,  do  you  believe 
you  did  see  other  reports  through  Dr.  Bush  ? 

Mr,  Wallace.  I  just  don't  know. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Did  you  at  any  time  register  a  disagreement,  while  a 
member  of  the  To})  Policy  Committee,  with  the  policies  and  function- 
ing of  tlie  Manhattan  Engineering  District,  which  I  understand  you 
did  not  know  by  name,  but  you  knew  the  work  was  progressing? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No;  never. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  the  time  you  were  a  member  of  the  War  Produc- 
tion Board  and  also  a  member  of  this  Top  Policy  Committee,  were  you 
also  Chairman  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  was  Chairman  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare 
from  August  1941  until  July  15, 1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  Economic  Defense  Board  was  created  by  Execu- 
tive Order  8839,  issued  July  30, 1941,  and  the  name  was  changed  to  the 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare  by  Executive  Order  8982  on  December 
17, 1941.  Did  you  serve  in  the  capacity  of  Chairman  of  this  Board  both 
before  and  after  its  name  was  changed  ? 

Mr.  Wallace,  That  Board,  as  I  remember  it,  was  set  up  in  the  State 
Department  under  General  Maxwell,  and  it  had  to  do  specifically  with 
the  control  of  the  exportation  of  materials  we  thought  we  might  need 
in  the  event  of  possible  war. 

^  Mr.  Wallace,  at  the  time  of  the  hearing,  testified  that  he  could  find  no  record  of 
any  contact  with  fJeneral  Groves  except  the  one  of  April  14,  1944.  In  further  checl^ing 
his  records,  he  finds  that  when  he  was  Secretary  of  Commerce — this  was  long  after  he 
ceased  to  be  head  of  BEW — he  asked  General  Groves  on  September  5,  1945,  to  make  a 
talk  to  the  Advisory  Committee  to  the  Department  of  Commerce  on  the  peacetime  uses  of 
atomic  energy. 


1078  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

There  was  considerable  discord  between  Treasury  and  the  State 
Department  about  certain  matters,  which  occasioned  the  President 
and  Budget  Director  Harold  Smith  much  concern.  They  saw  no  way 
to  get  around  this  difficulty  other  than  to  call  in  someone  who  out- 
ranked Dean  Acheson,  who  represented  the  State  Department  in  this 
matter,  and  Secretary  Morgenthau.  I  was  called  in  for  the  same  rea- 
son I  was  called  in  on  SPAB,  and  at  almost  the  same  time.  General 
Maxwell,  as  I  remember,  resigned  and  went  into  the  Reg-ular  Army 
activities  in  September  1941,  and  we  took  over.  We  may  not  have 
been  known  as  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  at  that  time,  but  an 
Executive  order  had  been  drawn  up,  it  was  a  slightly  different  name, 
and  we  took  over  active  control  quite  specifically  in  September,  and 
General  Maxwell  passed  out  of  the  picture  and  we  put  in  his  place 
Col.,  now  Gen.,  Roy  Lord,  a  very  efficient  Army  man,  to  handle 
these  export  problems.  He  carried  on  for  about  a  year,  at  which  time 
Hector  Lazo  took  charge  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare's  Office 
of  Export  Control. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  Executive  order  establishing  the  Board  of 
Economic  Warfare  provides  for  representation  of  the  War  Production 
Board  and  the  Office  of  Lend-Lease  Administration  on  the  Board,  and 
the  persons  selected  to  represent  these  two  agencies  were  required  to 
be  a]3proved  by  the  Chairman.  Who  were  the  representatives  of  the 
War  Production  Board  and  the  Office  of  Lend-Lease  Administration 
approved  by  you  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Approved  by  me  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Wallace  (to  Mr.  Walter  Freedman).  Do  you  remember  that, 
Walter? 

I  think  Nollenberg  sat  most  of  the  time  for  Ed  Stettinius.  There 
were  provisions  for  alternates,  and  I  think  there  was  never  any  diffi- 
culty about  selecting  them.  I  think  Donald  Nelson  sat  for  the  War 
Production  Board.     I  have  forgotten  who  the  alternate  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  Executive  order  establishing  the  Economic  De- 
fense Board,  later  known  as  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  provided 
that  its  purpose  was  developing  and  coordinating  policies,  plans,  and 
programs  designed  to  protect  and  strengthen  the  international  eco- 
nomic relations  of  the  United  States  in  the  interest  of  national  defense. 
The  term  "economic  defense"  was  defined  in  part  as  follows : 

The  term  "economic  defense,"  whenever  used  in  this  order,  means  the  con- 
duct, in  the  interest  of  national  defense,  of  international  economic  activities  in- 
cluding those  relating-  to  exports.     *     *     * 

Among  the  functions  and  duties  of  the  Board  are  to  be  found  the 
following : 

(6)  Coordinate  the  policies  and  actions  of  the  several  departments  and  agen- 
cies carrying  on  activities  relating  to  economic  defense  in  order  to  assure  unity 
and  balance  in  the  application  of  such  measures. 

(c)  Develop  integrated  economic  defense  plans  and  programs  for  coordinated 
action  by  the  departments  and  agencies  concerned  and  use  all  appropriate  means 
to  assure  that  such  plans  and  programs  are  carried  into  effect  by  such  depart- 
ments and  agencies. 

Then  section  7  of  the  Executive  order  reads  in  part  as  follows : 

The  Chairman  is  authorized  to  make  all  necessary  arrangements,  with  the 
advice  and  assistance  of  the  Board,  for  discharging  and  performing  the  respon- 
sibilities and  duties  required  to  carry  out  the  functions  and  authorities  set  forth 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1079 

in  this  order,  and  to  make  final  decisions  when  necessary  to  expedite  the  work 
of  the  Board. 

You,  of  course,  at  the  time,  were  very  familiar  with  the  provisions 
of  those  Executive  orders,  I  assume? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes;  I  was  familiar  with  those  provisions,  and  I 
later  became  very  familiar  with  the  soundness  of  the  prophecy  Harold 
Smith  made  on  July  30,  1941,  that  while  I  had  been  given  the  re- 
sponsibility, I  hadn't  really  been  given  the  authority.  While  I  did  not 
keep  a  detailed  record  at  that  time,  I  do  have  a  detailed  record  on  this, 
that  Harold  Smith  said :  "They  have  given  you  responsibility  here, 
but  they  have  not  given  you  authority."  And  he  made  very  clear  the 
point  that  while  Dean  Acheson,  when  he  thought  he  was  going  to  have 
control  of  this,  favored  being  given  complete  authority,  when  it  be- 
came apparent  the  White  House  wanted  me  to  have  it,  he  didn't  want 
me  to  have  complete  authority. 

I  told  Harold  Smith  I  knew  these  people,  and  it  was  not  necessary 
for  me  to  have  com])lete  authority  at  that  time.  I  later  found  Harold 
Smith  was  absolutely  right,  that  I  did  not  have  authority,  and  found 
it  necessary  to  get  cooperation  from  the  departments  concerned. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  do  you  construe  this  language,  if  you  say  you 
did  not  have  authority : 

Sec.  7.  The  Chairman  is  authorized  to  ni'alve  all  necessary  arrangements,  with 
the  advice  and  assistance  of  the  Board,  for  discharging  and  performing  the  re- 
sponsibilities and  duties  required  to  carry  out  the  functions  and  authorities  set 
forth  in  this  order.     *     *     * 

How  could  greater  authority  be  given  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  may  appeal  to  the  legal  mind,  but  the  history 
of  the  situation  will  demonstrate  it  was  not  sufficient,  because  we  found 
it  necessary  to  amend  the  order  later  on  to  remedy  the  weakness  which 
existed,  and  we  did  get  that  amendment,  and  that  amendment  pro- 
voked great  resentment  on  the  part  of  varioits  other  agencies. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  date  of  the  amendment;  do  you 
recall  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  would  say  it  was  in  the  spring  of  1942. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  in  1943  you  did  have  full  authority  to  make 
all  necessary  arrangements  for  carrying  out  the  provisions  in  this 
order,  by  virtue  of  the  amendment  which  you  now  refer  to? 

Mr.  Wallace.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  amendment  was  then  sabo- 
taged by  certain  of  the  agencies,  and  the  President  made  an  amend- 
ment to  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  mean  that  the  amendment  to  the  amend- 
ment took  away  the  authority  you  had  to  act  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  In  effect;  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  date  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  think  early  summer,  1942. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Ex])lain  a  little  more  what  you  meant  by  stating 
that  it  was  sabotaged  by  an  amendment  to  an  amendment. 

]Mr.  Wallace.  Simply  that  we  did  not  have  the  full  power  to  do 
the  job ;  that  is  what  I  meant.  If  you  will  examine  the  wording  there, 
you  will  see  that  while  we  were  directed  to  invite  the  agencies  to  go 
along,  if  there  was  any  agency  unwilling  to  go  along,  there  was  no 
way  of  enforcing  it. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  In  other  words,  if  Manhattan  Engineering  District 
would  refuse  to  agree  to  the  issuance  of  an  export  license,  you  contend 


1080  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

you  should  have  had  authority  to  do  it  anyway,  in  a  given  case,  just 
as  an  example  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  am  sure  nothing  of  that  sort  would  have  ever 
come  up,  because  the  Manhattan  District  M^as  in  a  class  altogether  by 
itself.  Xothing  having  to  do  with  uranium  or  the  Manhattan  project 
ever  came  up  before  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  at  any  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  the  Office  of  Lend-I-iease  Administration  took 
a  contrary  view  to  the  Board  of  Economic  AYarfare  regarding  the 
issuance  of  a  license,  you  contend  you  should  have  had  authority  and 
power  to  have  exported  it  anyway  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  We  had  no  disagreements  with  the  Office  of  Lend- 
Lease  with  regard  to  exports.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  there  was  a  very 
clear-cut  understanding  arrived  at  with  regard  to  Lend-Lease  Ad- 
ministration in  the  fall  of  1941,  at  which  time  Harry  Hopkins  turned 
the  job  over  to  Ed  Stettinius,  and  insisted  that  certain  powers  in 
Lend-Lease  reside  there  and  not  any  place  else.  We  were  not  con- 
cerned with  having  power  over  the  Office  of  Lend-Lease  Administra- 
tion.   That  is  not  where  we  were  having  our  difficulties. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  it  with  the  War  Production  Board  that  you 
were  having  your  difficulties? 

]Mr.  Wallace.  No.  We  had  no  difficulties  with  the  War  Production 
Board. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Why  was  it  you  were  so  insistent  upon  having  final 
authority  and  say  as  to  matters  with  which  these  other  agencies  were 
concerned  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  The  particular  difficulty  we  had  was  getting  maxi- 
mum production,  particularly  in  Latin  America.  We  found  we  had 
a  marked  difference  with  the  Secretary  of  Commerce  and  the  head 
of  the  Eeconstruction  Finance  Corporation  with  regard  to  how  this 
work  ought  to  be  done.    That  was  the  big  problem  involved. 

Mr.  TA^T.XNER.  When  you  say  that  the  authority  you  had  obtained 
by  the  first  amendment  to  the  order  had  been  sabotaged,  it  could  have 
no  meaning  other  than  that  some  group  or  individual  brought  about 
a  change  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  We  also  had  great  difficulty  in  getting  our  men  who 
were  stimulating  production,  particularly  in  Latin  America,  out  to 
those  countries.  Their  visas  would  be  held  up,  and  for  a  time  we 
were  having  very  great  difficulty  with  the  State  Department,  This 
was  largely  a  matter  of  misunderstanding,  the  way  it  turned  out, 
but  it  was  because  the  State  Department  had  very  strong  feelings 
that  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  was  getting  into  its  province 
that  the  amendment  to  the  order  was  changed. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  there  any  group  or  individual  who  did  any 
act  of  sabotage  that  you  recall  ? 

Mv.  Wallace.  I  think  you  are  using  the  word  "sabotage"  in  the 
wrong  sense.  I  am  referring  to  the  weakening.  I  think  possibly  the 
word  "sabotage"  is  unfortunate.  Let  us  say  "weakening"  of  the 
Executive  order. 

]Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  just  trying  to  find  out  in  what  sense  you  used  it. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  am  referring  to  a  weakening  of  the  Executive 
order. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  were  also  familiar  with  the  provisions  of 
Executive  Order  8926  of  October  28,  1941,  by  which  the  Lend-Lease 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1081 

Administrator  was  directed  to  arrange  with  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare  for  review  and  clearance  of  Lend-Lease  transactions? 

Mr.  AYallace.  No,  I  am  not  familiar  with  that  particular  order. 

Mr.  TA^'ENNER.  Well,  it  was  an  order  which  went  into  effect  in 
October  1941.  You  do  know,  regardless  of  the  order,  or  whether  or 
not  you  remember  now  about  the  order,  that  the  Lend-Lease  Admin- 
istrator was  required  to  arrange  with  the  Board  of  Economic  War- 
fare for  review  and  clearance  of  those  transactions  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  don't  know  of  any  case  where  they  did. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  When  a  request  was  made  to  Lend-Lease  for  ship- 
ment of  materials  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission,  your  organi- 
zation was  the  issuing  agency  for  the  license,  was  it  not  ? 

ISlr.  Wallace.  I  think  that  matter  can  be  very  readily  cleared  up 
by  reading  the  statement  as  made  by  the  State  Department  on  Decem- 
ber 8.  The  State  Department  made  a  statement  on  December  7,  1949, 
which  was  given  considerable  publicity  in  the  press.  This  statement 
was  incorrect  in  certain  particulars. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Are  you  referring  to  a  statement  in  regard  to  heavy 
water  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  My  question  related  to  uranium. 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes,  I  know,  but  this  covers  the  broad  field,  their 
statement  of  December  7. 

Mr.  Case.  December  7  of  what  year  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  December  7, 1949,  that  Secretary  Acheson  put  out  his 
original  statement.  This  December  8  statement  has  a  very  definite 
bearing  on  your  question.    Shall  I  read  that  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  just  a  moment,  but  does  that  relate  to  the  regula- 
tions that  were  in  effect  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  would  say  so,  definitely. 

Mr.  Ta\tenner.  Before  July  1, 1943? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  think  so.   I  would  say  definitely. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  for  you  to  make  any  explanation 
about  that  for  the  enlightenment  of  the  committee  that  you  can. 

Mr.  Wallace.  This  is  a  statement  of  December  8, 1949,  issued  by  the 
State  Department : 

In  connection  with  the  Secretary's  statement  yesterday  concerning  the  Jordan 
allegations,  a  review  of  the  records  of  the  Office  of  Lend-Lease  Administration 
and  the  Foreign  Economic  Administration  indicates  that  although  export  licenses 
for  commercial  items,  that  is,  general  items  other  than  lend-lease  and  muni- 
tions, were  actually  issued  by  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  the  responsibility 
for  approval  of  the  license  applications,  including  clearance  with  other  interested 
governmental  agencies  rested  with  the  Office  of  Lend-Lease  Administration  and 
its  successor  FEA.  This  procedure  was  deemed  necessary  in  order  to  concen- 
trate control  of  the  wartime  Soviet  supply  program  in  one  agency.  In  actual 
practice  up  to  July  1,  1943,  licenses  approved  by  OLLA  were  issued  in  routine 
fashion  by  BEW.  After  that  a  general  license  issued  by  BEW  or  its  successor 
agencies  became  effective  which  required  approval  of  tiie  Office  of  Lend-Lease 
Administration  only. 

I  think  that  makes  it  very  clear  indeed  that  the  relationship  of  the 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare  to  shipments  to  lend-lease  areas,  whether 
they  were  of  a  lend-lease  nature  or  a  cash  nature,  was  purely  pro 
forma  and  clerical,  and  that  there  was  no  discretionary  authority  in  the 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare  whatever. 

ISIr.  Ta\t:nner.  You  make  that  statement  regardless  of  the  fact  that 
the  Executive  order  says  arrangements  should  be  made  with  the  Board 


1082  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

of  Economic  Warfare  for  review  and  clearance  of  Lend-Lease 
transactions  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  do  make  it — definitely,  flatly,  completely,  and  indig- 
nantly. 

Mr.  Walter  Freedman  was  an  attorney  with  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare  at  the  time.  He  was  in  the  Export  Section  of  BEW.  He  is 
making  some  suggestion  to  me  now  which  I  don't  understand  the  tenor 
of,  but  I  suggest  you  ask  him. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  have  no  objection  to  your  conferring  with  him. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  would  prefer  your  having  such  a  conierence  with 
him.     He  was  close  to  the  technical  details. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  would  prefer  he  make  the  explanation  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Frankly,  I  have  never  seen  an  export  license  in  my 
life.     I  would  like  to  have  you  talk  to  him  about  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  no  objection  to  counsel  stat- 
ing what  he  believes  the  situation  was. 

Mr.  Wood.  If  you  wish  to  call  him  as  a  witness,  you  may  do  so. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  ask  a  question? 

Mr.  Wood.  I  would  prefer  that  the  members  make  notes  and  wait 
until  counsel  is  through,  if  that  is  satisfactory. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  There  is  a  provision  in  Executive  Order  8926,  pre- 
viously referred  to,  by  which  the  master  agreement  with  each  nation 
receiving  lend-lease  aid,  setting  forth  the  general  terms  and  conditions 
under  which  such  nation  is  to  receive  such  aid,  was  required  to  be 
negotiated  by  the  State  Department  with  the  advice  of  the  Board  of 
Economic  Warfare  and  the  Oftice  of  Lend-Lease  Administration.  You 
recall  that  to  be  a  fact  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes.     You  referred  to  it  earlier. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  You  did  advise  about  what  materials  should  be 
exported  to  foreign  countries  during  the  period  of  the  war? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No.     That  was  not  a  function  of  BEW. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  do  you  contend  is  the  meaning 

Mr.  Wall^vce.  BEW  initiated  no  exports  except  exports  in  connec- 
tion with  the  expansion  of  our  program. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  My  question  related  to  master  agreements  nego- 
tiated by  the  State  Department  for  the  furnishing  of  aid  to  the  various 
powers. 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  did  not  come  up  before  BEW. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  purpose  of  the  provision  of  this  Exec- 
utive order  which  provided  tliat  the  master  agreements  were  required 
to  be  negotiated  by  the  State  Department  with  the  advice  of  the  Board 
of  Economic  Warfare  and  tlie  Oftice  of  Lend-Lease  Administration  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Down  the  line  there  may  have  been  clearance.  I  was 
not  aware  of  anything  of  the  sort,  and,  as  far  as  I  recall,  nothing  of 
the  sort  came  before  meetings  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare. 

Mr.  Ta^^nner.  As  Chairman  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare, 
you  certainly  would  have  known  of  such  an  important  thing  as  the 
negotiation  of  an  agreement  for  a  large  delivery  of  important  materials 
to  foreign  countries  during  the  war  period  if  it  occurred,  would  you 
not? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  never  came  to  my  attention.  It  is  one  of  those 
things  that  never  came  to  my  attention. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  it  not  also  true  that  Executive  Order  8900, 
heretofore  mentioned,  required  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  to 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1083 

provide  a  control  clearing  service  to  which  exporters  may  submit 
proposals  for  the  export  of  materials  and  commodities,  and  further 
required  that  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  shall  obtain  clearance 
for  such  proposals  from  the  Federal  agencies  concerned  with  the 
control  of  exports  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Let's  have  this  question  handled  by  Mr.  Freedman 
later  on. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Don't  you  recall  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No,  I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  is  all  set  forth,  Mr.  Wallace,  in  a  memo- 
randum from  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  approved  by  you 
[handing  memorandum  to  the  witness]. 

Mr.  Wallace.  Mr.  Tavenner,  I  venture  to  say  if  some  7  years  from 
now  you  are  asked  for  certain  details  of  this  year,  your  recollection 
will  be  as  hazy  as  mine  about  precise  words  of  this  kind. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  certainly  true  about  precise  words,  but  I 
am  asking  you  about  the  general  subject  of  making  clearance  of  ex- 
ports to  foreign  countries  tlirough  the  agencies  that  control  those 
exports.  I  Avould  have  thought  that  was  a  matter  of  such  importance 
you  would  have  recalled  it. 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  miglit  have  been  important  in  the  daily  func- 
tioning of  the  executive  section  of  the  Board.  I  sat  on  the  Board 
where  you  had  these  top  people  from  the  various  agencies.  I  was  not 
the  executive  officer  of  the  Board.  I  was  Chairman  of  the  Board. 
Matters  of  this  sort  were  not  brought  to  my  attention. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  one  and  the  same  time  you  were  a  member  of 
the  War  Production  Board,  you  were  a  member  of  the  Top  Policy 
Committee,  and  you  were  the  Chairman  of  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare,  and  in  any  dispute  of  policy  that  may  have  arisen  between 
tliose  agencies,  you  were  in  the  position  of  standing  on  both  sides  of 
the  bargain  counter,  so  to  speak,  with  regard  to  those  transactions, 
were  you  not  'i 

Mr'  Wallace.  There  were  no  disputes  that  came  up  regarding  this 
particular  matter,  and  while  it  may  all  have  been  set  forth,  the  mere 
matter  of  setting  forth  probably  handled  the  situation. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  There  was  no  other  person  in  such  a  unique  position 
as  you  were  in  ? 

Mr.  Waij^ace.  I  was  Vice  President  of  the  United  States  and  had 
the  relationship  to  the  three  agencies  to  which  you  refer,  and  I  am 
very  proud  of  having  had  that  position.  I  am  very  proud  of  having 
been  Vice  President  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Of  course  it  is  a  great  honor  to  be  Vice  President 
of  the  United  States  at  any  time. 

Mr.  Wallace,  my  purpose  is  to  endeavor  to  develop  your  oppor- 
tunities for  knowledge  and  your  responsibilities  relating  to  matters 
that  w^ould  normally  come  before  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare, 
the  War  Production  Board,  and  things  that  occurred  within  Man- 
hattan Engineering  District. 

Mr.  Wallace.  May  I  interpolate,  with  regard  to  things  that  might 
have  occurred  within  the  Manhattan  District,  nothing  came  to  my 
attention  as  to  things  within  the  Manhattan  District. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  understand.  You  have  so  stated.  With  all  this 
:background,  and  all  these  positions  you  have  held,  my  sole  purpose 
now  is  to  have  you  tell  this  committee  all  that  you  know  about  the 


1084  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

sale  of  uranium  for  export  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission 
during  the  war  period,  and  by  that  I  mean  any  circumstances  related 
to  the  entire  transaction,  as  to  the  fact  of  issuance  of  licenses,  as  to 
the  policy  governing  it ;  the  committee  would  like  to  hear  it. 

Mr.  Wallace.  Thank  you  very  much,  JNlr.  Tavenner.  I  think  the 
shortest  way  of  handling  this,  at  the  risk  of  some  repetition,  is  to  read 
a  short  prepared  statement  that  will  take  about  10  minutes  to  read 
it,  then  there  can  be  questioning,  if  that  is  satisfactory. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Is  it  responsive  to  the  question  ? 

]\Ir.  Wallace.  It  is  definitely  responsive  to  the  question. 

Mr.  Wood.  If  it  is  responsive  to  the  question,  yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Before  he  does  that,  don't  you  think  the  Executive 
orders  should  be  made  exhibits  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  They  appear  in  the  Federal  Register. 

Mr.  Wallace  (reading)  : 

I  have  asked  this  committee  for  an  opportunity  to  testify  because  I  want  very 
much  to  clear  up  the  doubts  that  have  been  cast  on  my  conduct  in  connection 
with  the  licensing  of  uranium  and  heavy-water  shipments  to  Russia  in  1943. 

Testimony  before  this  committee  has  raised  two  basic  questions  insofar  as  I 
am  concerned:  (1)  It  is  strongly  implied,  if  not  actually  said,  that  I  was 
responsible  for  the  licensing  of  uranium  and  lieavy  water  for  Russia  in  1943 ; 
and  (2)  as  a  wartime  Vice  President,  I  could  not  be  trusted  with  certain  con- 
Mential  information  regarding  the  atom  bomb. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Wallace,  the  first  point  is  pertinent  to  the  question. 
The  second  is  not.  I  will  ask  you  to  confine  your  answer  to  the  first 
point. 

Mr.  Wallace.  If  I  can  be  allowed  to  differ  slightly  with  the  chair- 
man on  that,  I  would  like  to  read  from  the  record  made  by  General 
Groves  before  this  committee.  There  is  a  suggestion  in  the  record 
oi  the  committee 


Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Chairman,  it  is  apparent  that  the  next  paragraph 
deals  with  attacks  that  have  been  made  on  the  witness,  not  before  this 
committee,  but  bj-  newspapers  and  radio  commentators.  It  seems  to 
me  the  proper  thing  for  Mr.  Wallace  to  do  is  to  answer  statements 
made  before  this  committee,  and  not  use  this  as  a  forum  to  answer 
statements  by  commentators  and  newspapers,  over  which  this  com- 
mittee has  no  control. 

Mr.  Harrison.  It  appears  to  me  the  statement  is  not  very  long, 
and  it  might  save  time  to  let  him  read  it. 

jVIr.  Wood.  Suppose  you  use  whatever  material  you  have. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  think  that  will  be  the  shorter  procedure.  (Con- 
tinuing reading:) 

While  it  is  not  for  me  to  pass  judgment  upon  my  own  conduct,  I  state  unhesi- 
tatingly that  I  am  proud  of  my  participation  as  "Vice  President  of  the  United 
States  during  the  time  when  the  war  situation  was  most  critical,  and  I  am  proud 
to  liave  been  associated  witli  the  administration  whose  policies  were  so  effective 
in  making  available  the  essential  materials  when  they  were  most  needed.  The 
attack  being  made  on  me — not  only  before  this  committee,  but  with  even  more 
violence  in  certain  newspapers  and  by  certain  radio  commentators — is,  I  think, 
not  so  much  an  attack  on  me  as  it  is  upon  the  Democratic  Party  and  President 
Roosevelt.  At  any  rate,  once  and  for  all,  I  want  the  record  of  this  committee  to 
show  exactly  what  my  participation  was  insofar  as  tliese  shipments  are  con- 
cerned. 

Because  I  knew  how  important  it  was  to  keep  secret  the  fact  that  this  Govern- 
ment was  exploring  the  possibilities  of  an  atom  bomb,  I  never  discussed  the  atom 
bomb  or  the  shipment  of  uranium  or  heavy  water  to  any  country  with  anyone  in 
BEW — or  anyone  else  outside  of  the  selected  group  of  Government  officials 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1085 

directly  involved — at  any  time  until  the  matter  was  exploded  in  the  press.  The 
subject  of  uranium  shipments  was  never  discussed  in  any  meeting  of  the  Board 
of  Economic  Warfare  which  I  attended,  or  in  any  contact  with  any  member  of  the 
staff.  The  most  important  point  to  remember,  however,  is  that  shipments  to 
lUissia  were  not  the  responsibility  of  BEW  l)ut  the  responsibility  of  the  Lend- 
Lease  Administration,  which  in  1943  was  under  the  direction  of  E.  K.  Stettinius,  Jr. 

All  license  applications  for  shipments  of  materials  to  lend-lease  areas  which 
were  filed  with  BEW  were  forwarded  to  the  Lend-Lease  Administration  for 
recommendation.  BEW's  responsibility  for  these  applications  was  limited  to 
approving  or  denying  the  applications  in  accordance  with  the  recommendation  of 
the  Lend-Lease  Administration. 

Moreover,  the  licenses  for  uranium  oxide  and  uranium  nitrate  are  said  to  have 
been  issued  in  March  and  April  of  1943.  I  want  to  point  out  that  I  personally 
was  in  Latin  America  from  March  16.  1943,  until  April  25  of  that  year. 

In  any  event,  I  knew  nothing  about  the  issuance  of  the  licenses  or  the  ship- 
ments until  the  matter  was  stirred  up  in  the  press  in  1946. 

Within  the  past  week  I  have  talked  to  Milo  Perkins,  who  was  executive  director 
of  BEW,  and  Hector  Lazo,  who  in  1943  was  head  of  BEW's  Office  of  Export 
control.  I  am  assured  by  both  of  them  that  in  1943  they  knew  nothing  about 
tne.se  licenses,  nor,  indeed,  did  they  know  anything  about  the  atomic-bomb  project. 

With  regard  to  the  licensing  of  heavy  water  in  late  1943,  the  shortest  and  most 
convincing  answer  is  that  I  left  BEW  on  July  15,  1943.  Leo  Crowley  took  over 
REW  on  July  16,  and  its  name  was  changed  to  OEW.  On  September  25,  1943, 
OEW  was  merged  with  Lend-Lease  and  the  new  agency  was  called  Foreign  Eco- 
nomic Administration. 

Secretary  Acheson,  on  December  7,  1949.  issued  a  statement  which  received  con- 
siderable publicity — and  which  credited  BEW  with  issuing  a  license  for  heavy 
water  4  months  after  it  had  ceased  to  exist.  On  December  8,  Secretary  Acheson 
realized  his  error,  and  the  State  Department  issued  a  new  statement  which,  to 
the  best  of  my  knowledge,  never  appeared  in  the  press  or  over  the  radio. 

I  have  already  read  that  statement,  and  witli  your  permission  I 
will  consider  it  as  in  the  record  at  this  point  and  pass  it  on. 

In  summary,  therefore,  it  is  to  be  pointed  out  that  not  BEW  but  the  Lend- 
Lease  Administration,  which  by  its  activities  saved  so  many  American  lives,  was 
responsible  for  clearing  all  shipments  to  Russia.  I  was  neither  responsible  nor 
aware  of  any  of  them  at  that  time. 

Since  I  was  not  even  aware,  therefore,  that  the  Russians  were  trying  to 
obtain  uranium  or  heavy  water,  it  is  demonstrably  apparent  that  I  could  not  have 
pressured  someone  else  into  issuing  the  license,  or  urged  them  to  pressure  the 
Manhattan  Engineering  District  to  consent  to  their  issue. 

In  short,  and  in  fact,  I  had  absolutely  nothing  to  do  with  any  of  these 
licenses.  I  was  not  aware  that  they  were  being  requested.  I  did  not  know  that 
Lend-Lease  recommended,  after  consulting  with  the  Manhattan  district,  that 
they  be  issued,  and  the  agency  which  I  headed,  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare, 
had  no  discretionary  authority  with  respect  to  them. 

Mr.  Wood.  Does  that  prepared  statement  stand,  in  the  light  of  the 
Executive  order? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes,  sir;  I  desire  that  that  statement  stand. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  think  he  misread  the  statement.  He  said  he  did  not 
know. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  am  sorry.    I  did  know. 

Mr.  Harrison.  You  read  it  one  way  and  it  is  here  another  way. 
Which  is  corect? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  did  not  know.  That  is  on  page  6.  [Continuing 
reading:] 

Now,  a  word  must  be  said  about  General  Groves'  statement  that  he  showed 
me  a  report  in  August  1943,  and  that  that  was  the  only  report  that  he  showed 
to  me. 

Mr.  AVooD.  You  have  already  gone  into  that. 

Mr.  Wall.\ce.  Yes.     I  think  all  of  this  matter  has  been  covered. 


to 


1086  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

That  should  be — ^I  did  not  know,  by  the  way,  on  page  6.  Tliere  is  an 
error  in  the  mimeograph.^° 

Mr.  Wood.  An}^  further  questions? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  think  everything  else  has  been  covered  that  is  in 
this  prepared  statement.  I  mi<rht  say,  if  there  is  no  objection,  for 
the  sake  of  the  newspapermen  we  might  let  them  use  the  latter  part 
of  this  text  as  is  given. 

Mr.  Wood.  This  committee  has  no  discretion  or  control  over  what 
the  press  does. 

Mr.  TA\'EisrNER.  You  referred  to  a  conference  with  General  Groves 
in  1944  and  stated  that  he  discussed  with  you  the  matter  of  driving 
foreigners  out  of  the  uranium  business,  or  something  of  that  character. 
Just  what  did  you  say  about  that  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  All  I  have  got  in  my  record  is  just  that  single  sen- 
tence, and  that  is  all  I  remember. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  that  sentence  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  will  try  to  find  it  precisely  as  I  have  it  in  my 
record.  [Refering  to  documents.]  He  said  how  important  it  was  to 
get  the  foreigners  out  of  the  uranium  business. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  else  did  he  tell  you  about  the  difficulties  of 
the  foreigners  in  the  uranium  business? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Nothing,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  Is  that  all  he  said  ? 

Mr,  Wallace,  The  only  thing  I  have  a  record  of  or  recall. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  purpose  of  making  a  note  of  tliat 
particular  statement  ? 

Mr.  Wallace,  I  made  a  note  of  various  statements  made  to  me  at. 
that  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Were  other  statements  made  by  General  Groves  tO' 
you  at  that  tune  ? 

Mr,  Wallace,  That  is  the  only  statement  I  have  down  in  my  diary, 
in  my  statement,  that  he  submitted  the  report,  I  read  it,  it  indicated 
to  me  the  war  would  be  over  in  18  months. 

.    Mr.  Tavenner.  That  and  the  statement  you  just  read  about  uranium 
constituted  all  the  notes  you  made  at  that  time? 

]Mr.  Wallace.  Simply  how  important  it  was  to  get  the  foreigners 
out  of  the  uranium  business. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  stated  you  returned  from  Latin  America  on. 
April  25,  1943? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Testimony  introduced  in  the  course  of  these  hear- 
ings indicates  that  the  license  issued  for  the  shipment  of  1,000  pounds 
of  uranium  compounds  originating  in  Canada  was  amended  on  April 
29,  1943.  So  the  fact  that  you  had  been  in  Latin  America  would  have 
no  validity  as  far  as  the  time  element  is  concerned. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  know  nothing  about  the  dates  of  those  export 
licenses. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Your  absence  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  time 
element  of  the  amendment  of  the  license  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  just  know  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  anything  of  the- 
sort,  that  is  all, 

*>  Page  6  refers  to  page  number  in  typed  copy  from  which  the  witness  was  reading. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1087 


Mv.  Tavexner.  Was  there  brouglit  to  your  attention  the  issuance 
of  licenses  for  the  export  of  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Never. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  By  any  person  in  BEW  ? 

Mr.  Wai,lace.  Never. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  By  any  person  outside  of  BEW  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Never. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Whose  responsibility  was  it  in  the  Bureau  of  Eco- 
nomic Warfare  to  screen  these  applications  for  licenses  or  issue  them? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Well,  Hector  Lazo  was  head  of  Export  Control. 
Who  was  under  Hector  Lazo  I  don't  know.  Mr.  Freedman  may  be 
able  to  tell  you  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  ever  discuss  his  duties  with  him  ? 

Mr,  Wallace.  That  particular  agency  was  absorbed  completely 
with  the  problem  of  issuing  export  licenses  rapidly  to  the  trade.  They 
had  to  issue  about  8,000  a  day,  and  it  was  a  difficult  mechanical  job, 
and  the  trade  was  disgusted  with  the  way  that  job  had  been  done 
before  we  took  over.  I  think  at  one  time  there  were  100,000  of  these 
licenses  jammed  up,  weren't  there,  Walter?  We  had  to  get  out  from 
under  that  log  jam.  None  of  these  questions  of  policy  came  up, 
because  they  were  cleared  more  or  less  automatically  with  the  execu- 
tive agencies.  No  question  of  policy  ever  came  up  to  my  knowledge 
to  the  top  echelon.  I  took  that  up  with  Mr.  Perkins  and  Mr.  Lazo. 
Mr.  Freedman,  I  think,  can  assure  you  from  what  he  knows  of  the 
lower  echelon  that  nothing  of  the  sort  ever  came  to  anybody  on  the 
Board. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  was  a  matter  of  general  knowledge,  however,  that 
uranium  was  being  used  in  this  important  project,  and  that  the  policy 
was  not  only  to  keep  it  secret,  but  not  let  anybody  get  hold  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Vannevar  Bush  had  sworn  me  to  secrecy,  and  I  was 
not  going  to  talk  to  anybody  in  BEW  about  the  thing.  I  didn't  talk 
to  Milo  Perkins  about  it.  You  couldn't  trust  yourself  to  talk  to  any- 
body. If  Vannevar  Bush  w^anted  to  know  if  uranium  was  being  prop- 
erly handled,  he  should  go  to  Lend-Lease  or  me  directly,  because  I  was 
the  only  one  in  BEW  who  knew  about  it.  I  am  not  even  sure  Ed 
Stettinius  knew  about  it.  The  only  think  to  do  was  come  to  me  if 
they  wanted  to  observe  secrecy.  They  should  have  said:  "Here,  you 
hold  the  second  highest  office  in  Government,  and  you  know  about  the 
atomic  bomb.  How  can  we  get  it  across  to  these  folks  that  do  the 
licensing  without  getting  somebody's  wind  up?"  That  would  have 
been  the  proper  course,  to  come  to  somebody  who  knew  about  the 
atomic  bomb.  You  couldn't  expect  me,  who  had  sworn  myself  to 
secrecy  to  Dr.  Bush,  to  go  to  those  people  and  say:  "Look  out  for 
uranium."     That  would  be  tipping  your  hand. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  were  cognizant  of  the  importance  of  prevent- 
ing the  export  of  uranium  from  this  country? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  never  thought  about  it. 

Mr.  Ta\T3nner.  You  never  thought  about  it? 

Mv.  Wallace.  No.     This  thing  had  been  turned  over  to  the  military. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  You  recognized  there  was  a  problem  of  control? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  nevei'  thought  of  it  at  all.  It  was  not  within  my 
sphere  of  competence. 


1088  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yon  are  familiar,  I  presume,  with  Conservation 
Order  M-285  of  the  War  Production  Board,  which  provides  as  follows : 

The  fulfillment  of  requirements  for  the  defense  of  the  United  States  has  created 
a  shorta.ire  in  the  supply  of  uranium  for  defense,  for  private  account,  and  for 
export;  and  the  following  order  is  deemed  necessary  and  appropriate  in  the 
public  interest  and  to  promote  the  national  defense. 

That  was  the  regidation   that  controlled  the   purposes   for   which 
uranium  could  be  sold  and  distributed  within  this  country. 

Mr.  Wx^LLACE.  I  didn't  know  about  that  order  until  I  read  it  in  the 
press,  going  over  the  newspaper  accounts  of  the  hearing.  A  lot  of 
these  very  important  things  take  place  very  normally  in  the  lowei 
echelon. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  offer  in  evidencv 
Executive  Order  SSoO,  of  July  30,  1041.  from  which  I  read,  and  asL 
that  I  be  permitted  to  tile  as  a  part  of  the  same  exhibit,  marked  ""Wal- 
lace Exhibit  1,'"  the  subsequent  amendments  which  Mr.  Wallace  has 
referred  to. 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  it  will  be  admitted. 
(The  documents  above  referred  to,  marked  ''Wallace  Exhibit  1," 
are  liereinafter  included  in  the  record.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  have  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Walter. 

Mr.  Walter.  Was  there  any  occasion  for  General  Groves  to  ever 
report  to  you,  or  to  divscuss  matters  with  respect  to  the  progress  of 
the  Manhattan  project  with  you? 

Mr.  Wallace.  General  Groves'"  chain  of  command  did  not  run  to 
me. 

Mr.  Walter.  To  whom  did  it  run  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Dr.  Vannevar  Bush,  who  was  chairman  of  the  Mili- 
tary Policy  Committee.  There  was  no  reason  why  he  should  come  to 
me  unlei^s  he  was  directed  to  do  so  by  Dr.  Bush  or  Secretary  Stimson. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Harrison. 

IMr.  Harrison.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Moulder. 

Mr.  IMouLDER.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Nixon. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  will  pass. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Case. 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  WaHace,  you  have  pretty  well  given  the  background 
of  your  knowledge  of  research  in  the  development  of  atomic  energy, 
and  indicated  you  had  read  magazine  articles  prior  to  1940  on  it, 
and  also  spoke  of  your  part  on  the  top  policy  group  which  met  Decem- 
ber 16, 1941,  at  which  Dr.  Vannevar  Bush  and  Secretary  Stimson  were 
present.  You  may  have  referred  to  a  further  contact  you  had  with 
the  development  of  the  atom  bomb  progran  but  if  so  I  missed  it  in 
your  testimony. 

I  have  here  a  book  entitled  "Atomic  Ener,  ''or  Military  Purposes" 
by  Henry  DeWolf  Smyth,  chairman,  depar  ^t  of  physics,  Prince- 
ton University,  and  consultant,  Manhattai  rict,  United  States 
Engineers.     This  is  described  as  "The  Official  j.i^^,ort  on  the  Develop- 

^'  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  lUoy 

ment  of  the  Atomic  Bomb  under  the  Auspices  of  the  United  States 
Government,  1940-45,"  and  on  pages  81-82  I  read  this  paragraph : 

Report  to  the  President  by  Bushj  and  Conant  on  June  17,  1942 

On  June  13,  1942,  Bush  and  Conant  sent  to  Vice  President  Henry  A.  Wallace, 
Secretary  of  War  Henry  L.  Stimson,  and  Chief  of  Staff  George  C.  Marshall,  a 
report  recommending  detailed  plans  for  the  expansion  and  continuation  of  the 
atomic  bomb  program. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  might  interpolate  and  say  I  did  refer  in  the  ques- 
tioning to  a  meeting  with  Vannevar  Bush  on  June  16,  1942,  which 
was  an  important  meeting  having  to  do  with  the  expansion  of  the 
program. 

Mr.  Case  (continuing  reading)  : 

AH  three  approved  the  report.  On  June  17,  1942,  the  report  was  sent  by  Bush 
to  the  President,  who  also  approved.     *     *     * 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Case.  That  is  correct  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  So  that  you  saw  the  report  which  dealt  with  the  pro- 
gram for  the  expansion  of  the  atomic  bomb  project? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  Then,  having  had  that  connection  with  the  development 
of  the  project  at  the  outset 

Mr.  Wallace.  This  was  a  pilot  plant  proposition  at  that  time. 
This  did  not  have  to  do  with  what  later  became  the  grand  effort. 
It  was  small  stuff.  That  was  when  I  was  still  active  in  the  program. 
My  testimony  was  that  my  significance  in  the  program  ceased  after 
it  was  kicked  over  to  the  military  in  1942. 

Mr.  Case.  I  don't  want  to  change  your  testimony  in  any  respect. 
I  want  to  get  clear  what  the  background  was  and  the  importance  of 
uranium  in  the  development  of  the  atomic  bomb  project. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  certainly  understood  the  importance  of  uranium 
in  the  atom  bomb  project. 

Mr.  Case.  And  the  importance  of  secrecy? 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Case.  With  that  knowledge  and  background,  and  your  con- 
nection w^ith  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  did  it  ever  occur  to 
you  that  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  should  take  steps  to  prevent 
uranium  and  uranium  compounds  falling  in  unauthorized  hands? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  felt,  un.der  my  oath  of  secrecy  to  Dr.  Bush,  I  should 
not  talk  to  anyone  in  BEW  about  it.  I  might  mention  that  at  one 
time  when  I  was  with  Dr.  C.  K.  Leith  of  the  University  of  Wisconsin, 
a  noted  geologist,  I  asked  him  where  the  uranium  deposits  of  the 
world  were.  He  was  not  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Economic  War- 
fare. He  was  a  liaison  iv#n,  very  highly  thought  of  in  the  geological 
field.    I  think  that  is  t'      only  time  the  word  "uranium"  ever  came 

up.  .   -ru- 

Mr.  Case.  Did  Dr.  J  j,  :%  tell  you  uranium  was  produced  in  Canada  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yef;.:,£  ^^ 

Mr.  Case.  Did  B^^^f  have  a  list  of  critical  items  that  were  not  to 
be  exported  under  any  consideration  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  presume  they  did.  Mr.  Freedman  tells  me  this 
was  a  list  supplied  by  the  War  Production  Board. 

99334 — 50 13 


1090  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Case.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  War  Production  Board  after 
jou  became  head  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes.  I  was  a  member  of  the  War  Production  Board 
from  the  time  it  started,  January  15,  1942,  until  I  resigned  on  July 
19  or  20,  1943. 

Mr.  Case.  Was  uranium  on  the  list  of  critical  materials  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  don't  know.  I  have  no  idea.  I  looked  on  this 
thing  as  something  for  me  to  stay  out  of,. that  it  was  in  other  hands, 
and  competent  hands,  and  it  was  not  for  me  to  go  into, 

Mr.  Case.  Wasn't  it  your  duty  to  supervise  the  issuance  of  export 
licenses  ? 

]Mr.  Wallace.  We  were  in  a  negative  position.  Our  powers  were 
negative.  We  did  not  take  the  initiative.  We  were  carrying  out 
orders  for  other  people.  I  don't  remember  a  single  case  where  we 
took  the  initiative.  Nor  do  I  recall  a  single  case  where  we  suggested 
that  commodities  be  placed  on  the  export  ban.  I  would  say  it  was  a 
mechanical,  clerical  function  that  we  exercised.  That  is  the  way  the 
thing  came  up  to  us  in  the  first  place  from  General  Maxwell. 

Mr.  Case.  With  regard  to  matters  that  came  up  under  Lend-Lease, 
you  deferred  entirely  to  the  wishes  of  Lend-Lease  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  So  far  as  I  know,  there  was  never  any  discussion 
whatsoever  with  regard  to  any  exports  to  Russia.  I  don't  recall  a 
single  case  of  exports  to  Russia,  export  of  uranium,  coming  up  at 
any  time.  Lend-Lease  would  stamp  the  applications  in  the  lend-lease 
area  field.  I  haven't  seen  one  of  those  documents.  If  you  would  get 
hold  of  one  of  the  export  documents  that  are  in  Archives  Building — 
I  can't  get  hold  of  them,  but  you  can — you  could  find  out  what  the 
procedure  was. 

Mr.  Case.  The  statement  you  have  made  indicates  that  when  an 
application  came  with  the  stamp  of  Lend-Lease,  you  automatically 
issued  the  license? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  And  you  would  not  see  it;  people  in  the  lower  levels 
would  automatically  issue  the  license  if  Lend-Lease  said  they  wanted 
it? 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  have  representation  in  Lend-Lease  ? 

Mr.  Wallace,  t  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Case.  You  said  it  was  under  the  direction  of  Mr.  Stettinius 
in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes.  It  first  came  under  his  direction  in  the  fall 
of  1941.  Mr.  Stettinius  is  dead.  He  had  an  able  assistant  by  the  name 
of  Tom  McCabe,  now  head  of  the  Federal  Reserve  Board,  and  a  man 
highly  regarded  by  businessmen  of  the  country.  He  was  on  the  Busi- 
ness Advisory  Board  of  the  Department  of  Commerce.  I  am  suro 
he  could  clear  up  this  problem  with  you  very  rapidly. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  sit  in  on  meetings  of  Lencl-Lease? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No. 

Mr.  Case.  In  connection  with  this  particular  export  license,  it  was 
brought  out  in  testimony  yesterday  that  when  the  committee  sought 
to  go  through  the  Archives  to  get  the  particular  license  that  covered 
the  shipment,  it  could  not  be  found.  Do  you  know  anything  about 
that? 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1091 

Mr.  Wallace.  Not  the  slightest.    How  many  licenses  were  there  ? 

Mr.  Case.  The  others  were  tliere. 

Mr.  Wallace.  Which  particular  one  was  not  found  ? 

Mr.  Case.  The  one  which  was  missing,  according  to  the  testimony, 
was  the  one  amended  April  29,  1943,  for  1,()0()  pounds. 

Mr.  Wallace.  Where  would  the  original  be  ? 

Mr.  Freedman.  They  have  to  give  the  original  to  the  collector  of 
customs,  or  they  couldn't  ship  the  stuif . 

Mr.  Case.  What  was  the  custom  of  BEW  in  handling  these  licenses 
after  they  were  issued  ?    Were  they  permanent  files  ? 

Mr.  Freedman.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  They  were  permanent  files  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  And  the  property  of  the  Government? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  If  you  had  ever  been  given  all  the  power  you  state  you 
should  have  had  to  carry  out  the  responsibilities  placed  on  you,  would 
you  have  asked  for  some  voice  in  determining  what  mateiial  should 
be  exported. 

Mr.  WalLuVce.  Not  in  the  export  field.  What  we  were  interested 
in  was  in  the  import  field.    That  is  where  we  wanted  the  powers. 

Mr.  Case.  You  had  a  list  of  critical  materials  not  to  be  sent  out  of 
the  country  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  We  had  a  completely  happy  relationship  with  Lend- 
Lease.  There  was  no  case  of  conflict  there.  We  did  not  feel  we  had 
enough  critical  materials  coming  into  the  country.  It  had  nothing  to 
do  with  the  export  field.    We  had  no  interest  in  that. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  recall  the  top  personnel  of  Lend-Lease  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  There  was  a  man  by  the  name  of  Nollenberg.  Of 
course  the  top  was  Edward  R.  Stettinius,  Jr.,  now  passed  away.  I 
think  Tom  McCabe  was  his  right-hand  man.  And  there  was  a  man, 
Van  Buskirk,  now,  I  believe,  wdth  the  Mellons  in  Pittsburgh.  I  think 
Mr.  Pratt  of  General  Motors  was  there.  I  had  very  little  to  do  with 
Lend-Lease  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  know  who  had  to  do  with  requests  for  export 
licenses  that  came  from  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  didn't  learn  that  until  I  was  getting  ready  to  go  to 
China  via  Soviet  Russia  along  in  April  1944,  and  I  was  trying  to  find 
somebody  who  would  go  along  with  me  as  a  Russian  translator,  and  I 
was  told  that  there  was  somebody  over  in  Lend-Lease,  and  I  called 
up  General  Wesson  and  was  informed  at  that  time  that  he  had 
to  do  with  this  type  of  activity.  That  was  the  first  time  I  had  known 
of  him,  so  far  as  I  can  remember. 

Mr.  Case.  Wliat  type  of  activity  do  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  The  purchasing  on  lend-lease  account  and  sending  to 
Russia. 

Mr.  Wood.  You  don't  recall  anything  specifically  having  to  do  with 
the  development  of  the  atomic  bomb  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Oh,  no.     Why  do  you  make  a  statement  like  that,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Case.  Because  you  used  the  words  "with  this  type  of  activity.''* 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  think  your  question  was  friendly,  because  you  did 
not  want  my  statement  misinterpreted.     I  am  sure  it  was  friendly. 

Mr.  Case.  You  said  some  people  in  the  State  Department  felt  BEW 
was  getting  into  its  province.     Who  were  those  people  ? 


1092  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  "Wallace,  In  the  first  instance,  Sumner  Wells  and  Dean  Ache- 
son.  Later  on  we  straightened  this  out  very  comfortably  with  the 
State  Department,  but  at  the  beginning  they  felt  if  we  sent  men  to 
South  America  to  stimulate  the  production  of  quinine,  or  get  out 
quartz  crystals,  or  to  make  sure  there  was  plenty  of  tin  or  rubber 
coming  along,  these  men  would  be  running  around  loose,  not  report- 
ing to  the  respective  embassies,  and  that  they  would  cross  up  the  wires 
of  the  State  Department,  and  for  a  Vhile  there  was  very  great  delay 
in  getting  visas  to  get  the  men  out  of  the  country,  and  very  great  delay 
in  getting  messages  from  them.  The  messages  that  would  come  from 
them  would  lie  around  the  State  Department  sometimes  for  a  week 
or  more.  This  was  largely  due  to  the  cumbersomeness  of  the  State 
Department  machinery,  but  we  did  not  understand  that  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  the  State  Department  have  representation  on  the 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

IMr.  Case.  What  person  or  persons  represented  the  State 
Department  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Usually  Dean  Acheson  sat  on  the  Board.  Some- 
times Secretary  Hull  himself  sat  on  the  Board. 

Mr.  Case.  But  most  of  the  time  it  was  Mr.  Acheson  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Acheson  opposed  granting  you  greater  power  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  According  to  Harold  Smith,  in  January  1941  Mr. 
Acheson  opposed  it,  yes,  and  I  think  later  on  when  it  came  to  this 
amendment  he  opposed  it  as  well.  Secretary  Hull  also  opposed  it. 
But  eventually  we  worked  out  the  relationship  with  the  State  Depart- 
ment on  a  very  satisfactory  basis. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  anyone  sit  in  for  Mr.  Acheson  at  any  time  in  meetings 
of  theBEW? 

Mr.  Wallace.  There  may  have  been.     I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Case.  He  may  have  had  one  of  his  associates  or  close  friends 
sit  in  for  him  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  don't  know.  That  could  be  verified  from  the 
records,  of  course. 

Mr.  Case.  I  have  here  a  photostat  of  a  story  which  appeared  in  the 
NeAv  York  Times  on  the  22d  of  September  1945,  which  reads  in  part 
as  follows : 

Washington,  September  21. — A  proposal  sponsored  by  Secretary  of  Commerce 
Henry  A.  Wallace  that  the  United  States,  Britain,  and  Canada  reveal  the  secret 
of  the  atomic  bomb  to  Russia  was  discussed  at  President  Truman's  Cabinet 
meeting  today  and  brought  about  a  pointed  debate  that  ended  with  no  decision 
after  having  caused  the  longest  Cabinet  session  of  the  present  administration. 

Did  you  make  that  proposal  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  did  not,  and  I  have  a  complete  record  of  that 
whole  incident  which,  if  you  wish,  I  will  be  glad  to  read  into  the  record 
at  this  time. 

Mr.  Case.  I  don't  care  to  go  into  it. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  am  sure  you  don't  want  to  go  into  it.    It  is  relevant. 

Mr.  Wood.  You  state  you  did  not  make  the  proposal  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  did  not,  and  President  Truman  realized  I  did  not, 
and  on  his  own  initiative  knocked  it  down.  His  attitude  was  magnifi- 
cent throughout.    The  statement  the  President  made  appeared  in  the 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1093 

New  York  Times  of  September  24,  1945,  under  a  September  23,  1945, 
Washington  date  line : 

The  President  denied  firmly  that  Mr.  Wallace  had  insisted  that  the  atomic 
bomb  be  turned  over  to  Russia.  He  said  Mr.  Wallace  took  a  no  more  active  part 
In  the  discussion  than  anybody  else  at  the  meeting. 

I  have  a  complete  statement  of  the  Cabinet  meeting  at  the  time, 
which  I  don't  know  if  it  would  be  ethical  or  not  to  make  public.  I 
denounced  to  the  President  himself  that  there  had  been  a  "lying 
leaker"  in  the  Cabinet  meeting.  He  agreed,  and  he  told  a  subsequent 
meeting  of  the  members  of  the  top  Cabinet  at  a  luncheon — just  the 
top  Cabinet — that  the  man  he  thought  had  done  this  leaking  would 
no  longer  sit  in  Cabinet  meetings. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  identity  of  that  person  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  He  didn't  mention  his  name. 

Mr.  Wood.  Aside  from  that? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  could  only  guess  at  it,  and  I  think  that  would  be  a 
mistake.  I  may  say  Dean  Acheson  also  spoke  to  me  about  this,  and 
said  what  a  terrible  thing  it  was,  and  I  might  say  his  guess  as  to  who 
was  responsible  for  this  was  quite  different  from  the  President's 
guess. 

Mr.  Case.  The  proposal  to  share  the  atomic  bomb  with  Russia  was 
discussed  at  the  meeting  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  was  not. 

Mr.  Case.  It  was  not? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  did  not  come  up.    It  did  not  come  up. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  oppose  the  idea  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  didn't  come  up.  I  can  read  my  complete  record,  if 
you  want  to  know  what  it  was. 

Mr.  Case.  How  do  you  account  for  the  story  that  appeared  in  the 
New  York  Times  that  the  subject  did  come  up  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  King  Solomon  should  add  to  the  seven  things  be- 
yond the  wisdom  of  men,  the  things  printed  in  newspapers.  I  do  not 
blame  the  newspapers  too  much  when  they  are  guided  by  people  who 
have  special  interests  to  serve. 

Mr.  Case.  This  story  in  the  New  York  Times  also  says : 

Mr.  Wallace,  it  is  understood,  argued  in  support  of  his  proposal  that  now  is 
the  time  to  make  a  real  start  toward  a  working  world  union  through  a  demon- 
stration of  good  faith  to  the  Soviet  Union. 

Mr.  Wallace.  Again  I  say,  if  you  want  me  to  read  my  complete 
record  I  will  be  glad  to  read  it. 

Mr.  Wood.  I  will  be  glad  for  you  to  file  it  with  the  committee  if  you 
so  desire,  Mr.  Wallace.  We  will  be  glad  to  have  it  filed  with  the 
testimony. 

Mr.  K^ARNET.  Will  the  gentleman  yield?  I  think,  in  all  fairness 
to  the  witness,  there  have  been  several  questions  asked  as  to  whether 
he  did  make  the  statement  which  appeared  in  the  New  York  paper, 
and  I  think  the  witness'  statement  in  that  connection  should  be  made 
a  part  of  the  record. 

Mr.  Wood.  I  said  it  could  be  made  a  part  of  the  record. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  think  it  should  be  read  into  the  record. 

Mr.  Wood.  How  long  would  it  take  to  read  it? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  would  take,  I  would  think,  10  minutes. 


1094  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Chairman,  there  are  two  specific  questions  I  want 
to  ask  to  bring  this  to  a  head,  then  if  the  committee  wants  to  hear  it, 
the  witness  could  read  his  statement. 

You  state  definitely,  first  of  all.  that  you  did  not  make  any  such 
proposal  at  the  Cabinet  meeting  as  was  reported  in  the  New  York 
Times? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  make  that  statement,  and  President  Truman  made 
the  statement. 

Mr.  Case.  You  also  say  that  the  proposal  to  share  the  atomic-bomb 
secret  with  Kussia  was  not  discussed  at  that  Cabinet  meeting? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  think  I  had  better  consult  the  record  and  see  just 
the  form  in  which  it  came  up. 

Mr.  Wood.  I  understood  you  to  say  it  did  not  come  up  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  said  the  question  of  sharing  the  atomic  bomb  with 
Russia  did  not  come  up.     [Reading:] 

The  President  asked  Secretary  Stimson  to  open  the  meeting,  which  he  did  in 
an  iinnsually  comprehensive  statement.  He  said  that  all  the  scientists  with 
whom  the  War  Department  worked  were  convinced  there  was  no  possible 
way  of  holding  the  scientific  secret  of  the  atomic  bomb,  and  therefore  they  felt 
there  should  be  free  interchange  of  scientifie  information  between  different 
members  of  the  United  Nations.  He  said  that  the  scientists  told  him  that  the 
bombs  thus  far  dropped  were  utilizing  only  a  very  small  fraction  of  the  power 
of  the  atom,  and  that  future  bombs  would  be  infinitely  more  destructive — per- 
haps as  greatly  advanced  over  the  present  bombs  as  the  present  bombs  are  over 
the  bombs  which  existed  prior  to  1945.  He  said  some  were  afraid  they  would 
be  so  powerful  as  to  ignite  the  atmosphere  and  put  an  end  to  the  world.  He 
said  he  realized  that  any  interchange  of  scientific  information  with  the  other 
United  Nations  would  bring  into  the  foregi'ound  the  problem  of  Russia.  He 
then  entered  into  a  long  defense  of  Russia,  saying  that  throughout  liistory 
Russia  had  been  our  friend,  that  we  had  nothing  that  Russia  wanted.  He  said 
our  relationship  during  recent  months  had  been  improving.  President  Truman 
agreed  to  this. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Are  those  the  minutes  of  the  Cabinet  meeting  from 
■which  you  have  just  read? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No. 

Mr.  Harrison.  It  is  your  own  memorandum? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Harrison.  That  is  what  you  are  reading  from  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes.  There  is  one  other  point  Secretary  Stimson 
made  at  the  time  which  I  think  is  of  some  interest : 

Secretary  Stimson  said  it  was  conceivable  that  some  of  the  other  nations  could 
learn  the  secret  of  the  atomic  bomb  without  any  help  from  us  within  3  years, 
and  almost  certainly  within  5  years. 

Mr.  Case.  At  any  time  have  you  advanced  the  proposal  or  sup- 
ported the  proposal  that  the  secret  of  the  atomic  bomb  should  be 
shared  with  Russia? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Wliat  I  said  at  that  time,  I  backed  up  Secretary 
Stimson  in  his  proposal  and  said  that  if  we  did  carry  out  his  pro- 
posal and  there  was  an  interchange  with  Russia  of  scientific  infor- 
mation, there  should  be  a  proviso  that  our  men  should  work  in  Rus- 
sian laboratories  if  their  men  worked  in  our  laboratories. 

I  came  out,  by  the  way,  against  sharing  construction  details.  I 
said  all  scientists  knew  that  the  scientific  information  was  known 
in  many  foreign  nations.  The  men  who  did  the  work  for  us  were 
mostly  foreigners.  I  said  there  should  be  no  interchange  of  know- 
how. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1095 

Let  me  say  this  to  Mr.  Case,  and  being  from  South  Dakota  I  believe 
he  will  be  interested :  I  am  from  the  corn  country.  We  have  inbred 
strains  of  corn  and  chickens.  We  would  not  give  them  to  anybody. 
We  employ  scientists.  If  the  scientists  discover  anything  they  are  at 
liberty  to  publish  that.  What  the  scientist  wants  is  to  get  credit  for 
having  discovered  something.  And  there  is  something  about  science 
that  when  somebody  discovers  something,  somebody  in  another  part 
of  the  world  is  almost  certain  to  be  discovering  it  at  about  the  same 
time. 

There  are  secrets  with  regard  to  our  inbreds  (our  know-how)  which 
will  benefit  us  for  several  years,  but  when  it  comes  to  scientific  ap- 
proach what  we  have  learned,  someone  else  will  know  within  a  few 
juonths.  Science  never  has  and  never  will  advance  on  the  basis  of 
compartmentalization  and  secrets. 

The  bulk  of  the  people,  and  I  think  most  Congressmen,  don't  under- 
vStand  the  nature  of  science :  that  there  isn't  any  secret  and  never  was 
any  secret  that  you  could  lock  up  and  keep  away  from  somebody  else. 

Back  in  December  of  last  year  they  lifted  the  ban  on  the  articles 
published  in  Russian  scientific  magazines,  and  now  it  appears  the 
Russians  were  abreast  of  the  thing  in  the  scientific  world  in  1940. 
That  M'as  not  known  until  last  December.  That  is  what  I  am  told. 
I  haven't  seen  it,  but  a  newspaperman  told  me  he  had  looked  it  over 
and  found  that  true.     That  is  why  this  whole  misunderstanding  arises. 

I  told  the  Cabinet  meeting  that  if  they  were  placing  their  confidence 
in  scientific  secrecy,  they  w^ere  placing  their  confidence  in  a  Maginot 
Line,  and  there  was  no  security  there. 

Some  people  said  the  Russians  couldn't  discover  the  atom  bomb 
for  20  years.     Secretary  Stimson  said  3  or  5  years. 

]Mr.  Case.  Then  there  was  a  discussion  of  sharing  the  atomic  bomb  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  There  was  not.  I  said  very  clearly  I  was  against 
sharing  of  know-how.  I  advocated  we  keep  the  secrets  of  constructioii 
from  any  nation.     I  advocated  that  with  Dr.  Bush. 

Mr.  Case.  And  if  blueprints  of  construction  details  got  into  the 
hands  of  some  foreign  power,  would  you  regard  that  as  unfortunate? 

Mr,  Wallace.  Very  definitely.  I  would  be  against  it  in  the  hands 
of  any  power. 

Mr.  Case.  But  not  scientific  information? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Science  is  universal.  You  can't  bottle  science  up, 
and  when  you  do  you  condemn  your  own  Nation  to  backwardness. 

Mr.  Case.  Coming  back  to  the  basic  question  with  which  the  inquiry 
was  concerned,  you  say  if  export  licenses  were  issued  through  BEW, 
that  was  purely  a  ministerial  or  clerical  function,  because  the  stamp  of 
Lend-Lease  would  clear  them  automatically? 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Case.  And  that  any  responsibility  for  the  issuance  of  those 
licenses  rests  at  the  door  of  Lend-Lease  and  the  policies  determined  for 
it  by  the  State  Department  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  rested  with  Lend-Lease.  I  don't  know  whether  the 
State  Department  determined  policy. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Most  of  your  problems  came  from  the  Department 
of  State? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No,  Department  of  Commerce  and  Reconstruction 
Finance  Corporation.    The  State  Department  made  objections  in  the 


1096  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

spring  and  summer  of  1942.    We  ironed  our  difficulties  out  with  the 
State  Department  very  satisfactorily. 

]\Ir.  Case.  Wasn't  there  a  feeling  on  the  part  of  Mr.  Byrnes • 

Mr.  Wallace.  Secretary  Hull, 

Mr.  Case.  You  are  anticipating  the  question.  I  think  it  was  a  pro- 
test of  Mr.  Byrnes  against  statements  by  you  that  resulted  in  your 
resignation  from  the  Cabinet  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  That  does  not  have  to  do  with  the  immediate  ques- 
tion before  this  committee. 

]\Ir.  Kearney.  The  name  Dean  Acheson  has  been  mentioned  so  much 
that  I  assumed  most  of  your  problems  were  with  him  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  had  a  friendly  feeling  with  him,  but  we  did  have 
marked  conflicts  in  administration. 

Mr.  Kearney.  During  the  examination  by  counsel  here,  you  stated 
in  words  or  substance  that  you  would  rather  have  Mr.  Freedman 
answer  certain  questions.  Was  that  because  he  had  knowledge  of  the 
particular  facts? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes.  He  was  an  attorney  with  the  Board  of  Eco- 
nomic Warfare  and  operated  in  this  particular  field  which  has  to  do 
with  export  licenses. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Following  the  line  of  examination  by  Mr.  Case, 
I  am  going  to  ask  you  specifically,  did  you  have  anything  to  do  at  any 
time,  directly  or  indirectly,  with  the  expediting  or  issuance  of  any 
export  license  to  anybody  or  any  nation  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No.  I  have  no  recollection  of  having  entered  into 
that  at  all,  and  BEW  itself  did  not  enter  into  that  except  to  a  very 
limited  extent. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Can  you  answer  my  question  more  specifically? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  have  no  knowledge  in  any  way,  shape,  or  form. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Can  you  answer  yes  or  no  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Nixon. 

Mr.  Nixon.  In  regard  to  the  matter  of  expediting  licenses,  I  under- 
stood you  to  say  a  moment  ago,  or  your  counsel  said,  that  at  one 
time  you  had  a  backlog  of  100,000  license  applications  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  remember  there  was  a  big  log- jam.  I  think  I  said 
100,000  and  turned  to  counsel  and  asked  him  if  that  was  about  right. 

Mr.  Freedman.  Not  quite  that  much. 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  never  on  any  occasion  did  you  take  one  license 
out  of  the  bottom  of  the  pile  and  expedite  it? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Never.  I  don't  know  what  pressure  might  have  come 
in  sideways  on  the  boys. 

Mr.  Nixon.  But  you  say  that  you  yourself  never  expedited  the  issu- 
ance of  any  license  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Never,  at  any  time. 

Mr.  Nixon.  What  about  the  Board? 

Mr.  Wallace.  The  Board,  which  is  composed  of  the  heads  of  Cabi- 
net departments,  is  one  thing.  The  Board  met  on  questions  of  top 
policy.  Then  there  was  the  executive  branch  of  BEW  under  the  man- 
agement of  Milo  Perkins,  where  there  were,  I  suppose,  3,000  employees, 
and  they  did  that  work. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  am  referring  to  the  issuance  of  the  licenses  themselves. 

Mr.  Wallace.  It  is  a  clerical  job  without  policy  on  our  part  entering 
into  it. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATEKIAL  iUy/ 

Mr.  Nixon.  There  was  testimony  presented  to  this  committee  on 
Tuesday  by  Colonel  Merritt. 

Mr.  Wallace.  Of  what  organization? 

Mr.  Nixon.  Manhattan  Engineering  District  in  New  York.  He  was 
in  the  office  which  had  control  over  approving  the  shipments  of  atomic 
products — uranium  and  related  products — abroad.  He  referred 
specifically  to  one  case  that  he  said  became,  I  think  his  words  were  "a 
very  hot  case"  in  their  department,  involving  the  shipment  of  1,000 
pounds  of  uranium  to  the  Soviet  Union  through  the  firm  of  Boris 
Pregel ;  and  from  his  testimony  it  was  apparent  to  me,  and  I  think  to 
other  members  of  the  committee,  that  this  was  an  unusual  case  in  which 
action  was  desired  at  an  early  date.  It  is  difficult  for  me  to  reconcile 
that  testimony  with  your  statement  that  in  no  case  did  BEW  exercise 
any  discretion,  you  just  took  them  in  their  order. 

Mr.  Wallace.  Mr.  Freedman  informs  me  that  the  method  of  han- 
dling the  licenses,  they  were  divided  by  countries  and  by  products.  It 
was  not  one  pile.  I  know  nothing  about  the  mechanical  details  of 
handling  them. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Do  you  recall  what  the  backlog  was,  approximately, 
iu  April  1943? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Ntxon.  It  was  large  ? 

Mr.  Freedman.  It  was  always  large. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  don't  know.  I  know  there  was  always  pressure 
from  the  trade  to  get  them  coming  along  faster. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  understood  counsel  to  say  the  backlog  was  always 
large.  When  did  you  first  learn  that  shipments  of  uranium  oxide, 
uranium  nitrate,  and  heavy  water  were  being  made  to  Russia? 

Mr.  Wallace.  In  1946,  when  I  read  it  in  the  press. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  didn't  know  of  any  of  the  shipments  before  that 
time? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No.  I  was  informed  that  there  was  a  newspaper 
t-tfort — this  was  in  the  spring  of  1946 — a  newspaper  effort  in  New 
York  to  involve  me  in  something  of  this  sort.  I  didn't  know  at  that 
time  what  it  was.  I  was  informed  that  this  newspaper  effort  originated 
in  Washington,  that  it  was  in  the  nature  of  a  sinister  plot,  and  that 
this  sinister  plot  would  develop  later  in  the  press.  I  learned  enough 
in  May  1946  so  that  I  did  speak  to  Secretary  of  War  Patterson  about 
it  on  May  16. 

Mr.  Nixon.  In  your  statement,  on  page  6,  you  say :  "I  had  absolutely 
nothing  to  do  with  any  of  these  licenses.  I  was  not  aware  that  they 
were  being  requested.    I  did  know" 

Mr.  Wallace.  There  is  a  "not"  that  belong  in  there. 

INIr.  Nixon.  "I  did  not  know  that  Lend-Lease  recommended"? 

Mr.  Wallace.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  did  testify  that  you  recognized,  obviously  because 
of.  your  broad  scientific  knowledge,  the  importance  of  uranium  oxide 
in  the  development  of  the  atomic  project? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  recognized  the  importance  of  U-235.  I  didn't  know 
the  relationship  of  U-235  to  uranium,  but  I  did  recognize  the  high 
importance  of  U-235. 

Mr,  Nixon.  You  recognized  the  importance  of  the  product,  and 
the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  issued  the  licenses,  but  you  did  not 
oven  know  your  Board  issued  licenses  in  1943  for  this  material  ? 


1098  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Wallace.  No.  This  was  a  purely  meclianical  proposition. 
We  issued  approximately  8,000  licenses  a  day. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Walter.  Mr.  Chairman.  I  would  like  to  ask  one  more  question. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Walter. 

Mr.  Walter,  Did  you  attempt,  either  directly  or  indirectly,  to  in- 
fluence anybody  in  a  decision  to  issue  a  license  for  any  uranium 
product  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No,  sir,  I  did  not,  and  I  think  this  should  be  cleared 
up  in  the  record.  It  is  really  a  very  small  item,  but  General  Groves 
said  he  did  not  know  what  indirect  pressure  Mr.  Wallace  mig-ht  have 
brought  on  him  or  Manhattan  project  through  others.  Because  that 
was  left  slightly  dangling  in  General  Groves'  testimony,  I  would  like 
to  say  I  certainly  did  not. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  think  General  Groves  cleared  that  up  in  a  letter 
we  received  this  morning. 

Mr.  Wallace.  There  was  that  little  bit  of  testimony  that  was  left 
dangling. 

Mr.  Walter.  That  is  all. 

^Ir.  Wood.  Mv.  Velde. 

Mr.  Velde.  Were  you  acquainted  with  any  of  the  producers  of 
uranium  while  you  were  head  of  BEW  and  Vice  President  of  the 
United  States? 

Mr.  Wall-vce.  Yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  Who  were  they  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  On  December  27,  1943,  Boris  Pregel  came  to  see  me, 
with  the  request  I  put  him  in  touch  with  scientific  men  in  the  Depart- 
ment of  Agriculture.  He  told  me  he  was  manufacturing  radium  at  a 
plant  at  Mount  Kisco.  I  don't  recall  that  he  referred  to  uranium 
at  the  time.  He  never  said  anything  to  me  about  the  atom  bomb 
until  3  days  after  it  had  been  dropped  on  Hiroshima. 

The  first  time  I  met  him  was  December  1943,  and  at  that  time  he 
wanted  me  to  put  him  in  touch  with  scientific  men  in  the  Department 
of  Agriculture.  I  called  Eugene  Auchter,  director  of  Scientific  Re- 
search, and  asked  for  Mr.  Pregel  to  meet  Eugene  Auchter.  And  I 
arranged  with  Mr.  Pregel  to  get  some  alpha  radiation,  a  byproduct 
of  the  manufacture  of  radium,  for  experimentation  in  my  garden. 
I  experimented  with  it  in  1944,  1945,  1946,  1947,  and  1948. 

Mr.  Velde.  That  was  in  your  New  York  farm  ? 

Mr.  Wallace.  No,  first  in  Washington  and  subsequently  my  New 
York  farm. 

JNIr.  Velde.  You  knew  he  was  a  producer  of  uranium,  and  that 
uranium  could  be  used  in  the  manufacture  of  the  atom  bomb  ? 

Mv.  Wallace.  He  did  not  refer  to  the  atom  bomb  until  August  8, 
1945,  after  it  had  been  dropped  on  Hiroshima.  At  that  time  he  gave 
me  photostats  of  statements  he  had  issued  to  the  Miami  paper  in  1941 
as  to  the  peacetime  and  wartime  importance  of  atomic  energy. 

Mr.  Velde.  Would  you  say  your  relationship  with  Boris  Pregel 
was  a  close  relationship  during  that  time? 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  wouldn't  say  a  close  relationship.  I  knew  him. 
He  translated  for  me.  When  I  found  the  F'resident  wanted  me  to  go 
to  China  via  Soviet  Asia,  when  the  President  first  indicated  that, 
I  started  trying  to  learn  Russian. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  lUyy 

Mr.  Velde.  Who  accompanied  you  to  Russia  at  the  time  you  made 
that  trip  ? 

JNIr.  Wallace.  Could  we  finish  one  subject  at  the  time,  or  shall  we 
wander  all  over  the  map  ? 

Mr.  Velde.  I  am  sorry  I  interrupted  you. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  merely  wanted  to  say  I  had  studied  Russian  very 
assiduously  when  the  President  told  me  he  wanted  me  to  go  to  China 
via  Russia,  and  I  had  one  of  the  teachers  here  in  Washington.  I  won't 
mention  his  name  because  I  don't  want  to  prejudice  him  in  any  way. 
He  is  not  seated  in  this  room,  I  might  say. 

What  I  wanted  to  do  at  that  time,  we  felt  Russia's  part  in  the  war 
effort  was  very  significant,  and  I  was  going  to  be  visiting  certain  spots 
in  Siberia  where  they  were  seeking  to  produce  many  products  that 
would  save  the  lives  of  American  boys,  and  I  wanted  to  make  some 
speeches.  So  I  asked  Mr.  Pregel — because  he  was  born  in  Russia  and 
was  driven  out  by  the  Bolsheviks  in  1917,  I  believe — I  asked  if  he 
would  translate  my  speeches  into  Russian.  I  thought  his  translation 
would  be  better  than  that  of  the  people  I  had  been  working  with.  He 
did  translate  them  for  me,  and  I  saw  him  rather  frequently  during 
that  period. 

If  you  have  any  further  questions  on  the  Pregel  matter,  would  you 
like  to  ask  them? 

Mr.  Wood.  It  is  very  interesting,  but  is  it  pertinent  here? 

Mr.  Velde.  Yes,  I  think  it  is,  in  view  of  the  fact  he  has  made  the 
statement  he  did  not  mention  the  subject  of  uranium  to  anyone,  and 
in  view  of  the  fact  Boris  F'regel  was  a  producer  of  radium  at  the  time 
and  was  a  very  close  friend. 

Mr.  Wood.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Wallace.  I  didn't  say  he  was  a  very  close  friend.  I  first  met 
Mr.  Pregel  on  December  27, 1943. 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  discuss  the  subject  of  uranium  with  him? 

Mr.  Wallace.  We  discussed  alpha  radiation.  That  has  nothing  to 
do  with  the  bomb.  It  is  a  byproduct  of  the  manufacture  of  radium. 
I  don't  recall  discussing  the  subject  of  uranium,  as  such,  until  after 
the  bomb  was  dropped.  But  we  did  discuss  the  use  of  this  byproduct 
for  agricultural  purposes.  Mr.  Pregel  did  not  bring  up  at  any  time 
the  subject  of  shipments  of  uranium  or  the  bomb. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Chairman,  if  you  prefer  I  will  not  go  into  the  trip 
to  China  and  Russia  at  this  time,  because  I  don't  see  that  it  will  serve 
a  useful  purpose  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Wallace.  With  regard  to  this  statement,  I  have  some  hesitancy 
about  putting  it  in  the  record  of  the  committee,  because  it  involves  a 
lengthy  statement  of  what  took  place  at  Cabinet  meetings,  and  I  would 
like  to  clear  it  with  someone  at  the  White  House  before  putting  it  in. 
I  think  probably  I  have  put  enough  in  the  record.  I  may  say  that  the 
statement  that  President  Truman  made  knocking  the  story  down  in  the 
New  York  Times  was  made  without  solicitation  on  my  part. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  date  of  that  Cabinet  meeting? 

Mr.  Wallace.  September  21,  1945. 

Mr.  Ta\t<:nner.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  offer  in  evidence 
the  memorandum  of  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  approved  by 
Mr.  Wallace  to  which  I  referred  earlier,  and  I  ask  that  it  be  marked 
"Wallace  Exhibit  2." 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted. 


1100  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

(The  memorandum  above  referred  to,  marked  "Wallace  Exhibit 
2,"  is  hereinafter  included  in  the  record,)  ^^ 

Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  stand  in  recess  until  2 :  30  this 
afternoon. 

(Thereupon,  a  recess  was  taken  until  2 :  30  p.  m.,  Thursday,  January 
26, 1950.) 

AFTER  RECESS 

The  committee  reconvened,  pursuant  to  the  taking  of  the  recess, 
Hon.  Francis  E.  Walter,  presiding. 

Mr.  Walter.  The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

Whom  do  you  wish  to  call  first,  Mr.  Tavenner  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Hoopes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Mr.  Hoopes,  will  you  raise  your  right  hand,  please? 

Do  you  swear  that  the  testimony  that  you  are  about  to  give  before 
this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  do. 

Mr.  Walter.  Sit  down,  please. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JAMES  P.  HOOPES 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  state  your  full  name,  Mr.  Hoopes? 

Mr.  HooPES.  James  P.  Hoopes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  your  present  address? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  39  Poplar  Street,  Douglaston,  Long  Island,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  When  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  July  6,  1913,  Westchester,  Pa. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  is  your  present  occupation  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  am  a  lawyer. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Would  you  furnish  the  committee  with  a  resume 
of  your  past  employment,  including  any  service  that  you  may  have  had 
in  the  United  States  Army  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  had  a  commission  in  the  Coast  Artillery  Reserve  of 
the  Army  from  1933  to  1938.  From  March  of  1942  until  early  Novem- 
ber 1943, 1  was  employed  in  the  Office  of  the  Lend-Lease  Administra- 
tion. At  that  time  I  entered  the  service  of  the  Xavy,  in  November 
1943,  and  I  was  released  to  inactive  duty  in  April  1946.  I  have  been 
engaged  in  private  practice  since  that  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Hoopes,  will  you  tell  us  the  exact  nature  of  your 
employment  and  your  position  with  Lend-Lease  during  1943? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  was  a  liaison  officer  in  the  Division  for  Soviet  Sup- 
ply. I  had  to  do  in  some  measure  with  lend-lease  requisitions  for 
materials  to  be  shipped  to  Russia. 

Another  one  of  my  jobs  was  having  to  do  with  cash  purchases  of 
materials  to  be  exported  to  Russia. 

As  a  liaison  officer,  the  main  function  of  the  job  was  to  handle  the 
Soviet  requests  with  the  various  Government  agencies  and  persons  in 
the  Government  who  were  in  a  position  to  pass  upon  their  availaiblity 
as  to  material,  and  so  forth,  and  obtain  the  necessary  priorities  to  be 
awarded  if  the  material  was  to  be  shipped.     That  is  about  the  size  of  it. 


^  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  11  OX 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  now,  you  spoke  of  cash  purchases  and  lend- 
lease  purchases.  Why  was  it  necessary  for  you  to  have  to  deal  with 
cash  purchases,  when  you  were  an  employee  of  Lend-Lease?  Were 
not  cash  purchases  handled  direct  through  other  agencies  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  No,  sir.  Our  office  handled,  during  the  time  that  I 
was  there,  the  cash  purchases  for  the  Soviet  Union,  which  required 
clearance  for  export,  particularly  those  which  required  any  priority 
assistance.  All  the  requests  for  priority  assistance  or  for  clearance 
for  export  of  those  purchases  f unneled  through  our  office. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  what  was  the  practice  in  your  office  when  you 
received  a  requisition,  say,  from  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  for 
some  article  of  merchandise,  or  some  commodity? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Do  you  mean  a  lend-lease  requisition,  or  do  you  mean 
a  cash-purchase  application? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  let's  take  both  of  them.    Lend-Lease,  first. 

Mr.  HooPES.  In  the  case  of  a  lend-lease  requisition,  one  of  the  first 
jobs  that  we  had  to  do  was  to  check  to  see  if  the  material  requested 
under  the  requisition  was  within  the  program  of  aid  to  the  Soviet 
Union. 

Mr.  Tai'enner.  How  did  you  ascertain  that  fact  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Well,  the  materials  were  set  forth  in  the  protocol  that 
governed  the  lend-lease  aid  to  the  Soviet  Union,  and  certain  quantities 
of  various  materials  were  committed  by  the  United  States  to  Russia, 
and  it  was  our  first  job  to  see  if  any  of  these  requests  came  within  the 
categories  of  the  material  that  was  authorized.  Once  we  determined 
that,  we  checked  the  particular  liaison  officer  who  was  handling  that 
particular  material.  There  were  several  liaison  officers.  The  one 
liaison  officer  handling  the  particular  material  would  check  with  the 
various  members  of  the  War  Production  Board  and  any  other  agencies 
that  controlled  that  material. 

For  instance,  if  the  material  was  copper  or  a  certain  kind  of 
machine,  we  checked  with  the  people  in  the  War  Production  Board 
and  the  branch  that  controlled  the  production  and  the  availability 
of  the  supply  of  that  commodity.  We  would  find  whether  that  ma- 
terial was  available.  We  would  find  what  sort  of  priority  was  needed 
to  obtain  the  production  and  the  making  of  it  available  to  the  Russians. 

We  also  checked  as  to  the  shipping,  the  size,  the  tonnage,  and  the 
bulk  of  the  shipment,  because  it  was  our  job  to  control  the  amount 
and  to  schedule  the  shipping.  That  was  not  my  job,  but  we  made 
a  report  on  it. 

These  requisitions,  then,  after  we  had  had  preliminary  information 
on  them,  were  ordinarily  taken  up  in  our  Division  at  a  requisition 
meeting,  at  which  General  Wesson  presided,  and  they  were  reviewed 
and  discussed.  If  there  were  some  questions  of  policy  to  be  deter- 
mined, those  questions  were  brought  up,  and  the  officers  would  give 
a  report  as  to  what  the  War  Production  Board  had  to  say  as  to  the 
availability,  and  so  on.  If  the  requisition  was  ultimately  passed,  it 
was  then  forwarded  to  the  War  Production  Board  for  routing  through 
the  various  branches  to  obtain  priority,  and  then  finally  it  was  turned 
over  to  the  procurement  agency  of  Lend-Lease  to  buy  the  material. 
Lend-Lease  did  not  buy  the  material,  but  there  were  various  Govern- 
ment agencies  that  did.  And  the  requisition  was  given  to  them,  and 
they  purchased  the  material,  which  was  generally  put  out  on  bids  or 
however  they  saw  fit  to  do  it. 


1102  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

From  that  point,  when  the  goods  were  ready  for  delivery,  they 
were  scheduled  for  shipment.  That  was  not  my  particular  function, 
but  we  followed  it  through. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  If  that  requisition  was  designed  for  export  to  a 
foreign  country,  to  what  extent  was  that  procedure  which  you  have 
described  supplemented  ? 

Mr.  HoopES.  I  am  only  talking  about  the  requisitions  that  were 

Mr.  Tavenner.  For  export  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  All  Lend-Lease  requisitions. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Of  course,  the  only  ones  would  have  been  for  export. 

Mr.  HoopES.  And  the  only  ones  we  were  involved  with  were  for 
export  to  Russia. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  you  have  not  mentioned  anything  about  the 
necessity  of  having  an  export  license. 

Mr.  HooPES.  No  export  license  was  required,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  No  export  license  was  required  for  any  material 
which  was  being  exported  to  Russia  ? 

Mr.  HooPEs.  No,  sir ;  under  lend-lease.  There  is  a  distinction  to  be 
made  between  lend-lease  materials  and  cash  purchases. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  cash  purchases.    All  right. 

Mr.  HooPES.  The  lend-lease  requisition  itself  was  the  shipping 
authority.  Once  it  had  gone  finally  through  all  the  various  stages  it 
went  to,  and  got  into  production,  and  so  on,  it  contained  authority 
to  ship;  the  requisition  itself  did.  And  they  were  shipped  pursuant 
to  the  Lend-Lease  Act,  and  they  were  shipped  with  lend-lease  funds. 
The  cash  purchases  were  handled  in  an  entirely  different  manner. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  you  issued  a  certificate  of  release  to  accompany 
the  material,  did  you  not,  when  it  was  lend-lease? 

Mr.  HooPES.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  did  not? 

]Mr.  Hoopes.  No,  sir ;  that  was  for  cash  purchases  only. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner,  Well,  now,  describe  the  situation  where  it  was  a 
cash-purchase  transaction. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  am  not  entirely  familiar  with  the  situation  as  to  the 
procedure  of  cash  purchases  all  the  way  through,  until  about  July  of 
1943,  when  the  procedure  changed.  To  the  best  of  my  recollection, 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  would  send  an  application  through 
by  letter  to  our  office,  requesting  an  export  license  for  shipment  of 
some  particular  commodity  or  material.  My  only  part  in  the  picture 
at  that  time  was  the  assistance  for  priority.  If  the  material  needed 
priority  assistance,  it  would  be  accompanied  by  a  WPB  form,  and  then 
I  got  that  form  and  checked  with  the  Government  agencies  in  similar 
manner  to  the  handling  of  lend-lease  requisitions,  to  see  if  the  material 
was  available,  what  priority  it  needed,  and  so  forth.  And  even  though 
it  was  a  cash  purchase  application,  these  items  were  considered  from 
many  of  the  same  lend-lease  points  of  view,  about  shipping,  the 
•critical  nature  of  supply,  and  the  comparative  needs  of  our  own  Gov- 
•ernment  agencies  for  other  purposes. 

I  would  send  the  priority  application  to  the  War  Production  Board 
and  follow  it  through  the  branches  until  it  got  its  priority  and  was 
returned  to  our  office.  Wlien  it  was  returned,  with  the  necessary 
priority  on  it,  it  was  my  recollection  that  we  gave  approval  to  the  ex- 
port licensing — I  did  not  handle  this  ordinarily — and  that  the  export 
license  was  actually  issued  by  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare.    It 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1103 

was  their  clociiment.  We  gave  our  approval  to  it,  and  it  already  had 
its  priority,  and  it  was  then  returned  to  the  Russians.  It  was  given 
a  number  and  a  date  on  which  it  was  approved ;  and  the  export  license, 
together  with  the  priority  itself,  the  priority  certificate,  was  returned 
to  the  Russians.  They  in  turn  would  turn  that  over  to  their  supplier, 
who  would  use  it  in  getting  the  material  and  in  shipping  it. 

The  procedure  was  changed  later,  but  up  to  that  point  I  did  not 
have  a  great  deal  to  do  with  the  export  licensing  itself.  I  had  to  do 
mostly  with  priorities. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  you  say  it  "was  changed  later,"  you  mean  at 
what  date  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  believe  the  change  date  was  July  1,  1943.  I  think 
that  was  the  effective  date  of  the  change.  We  worked  out  with  the 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare  an  arrangement  whereby  they  would 
issue  what  was  called  a  program  license  to  the  Soviet  iQnion.  Then 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  would  submit  to  our  office  what 
was  called  a  release  certificate.  It  was  a  document  which  set  forth  the 
nature  of  the  material  that  they  wanted  to  purchase,  their  immediate 
supplier,  several  details  about  what  the  ingredients  of  the  material 
were,  the  shipping  weight,  and  the  bulk,  and  so  forth.  They  sent  that 
to  our  office.  It  was  up  to  us,  then,  to  pass  upon  it  and  approve  it  for 
export  under  the  program  license. 

The  program  which  the  program  license  covered  was  the  protocol. 
In  other  words,  it  was  strictly  tying  in  all  Russian  shipments,  whether 
they  were  for  cash  or  lend-lease,  to  the  protocol,  so  that  it  was  one 
program.  And  then  one  of  us  would  sign  the  application,  the  release 
certificate,  give  it  a  number,  and  return  it  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission. 

Mr.  Taa'enner.  Let  me  stop  you,  there,  a  moment. 

Mr.  HooPEs.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  protocol  agreement  that  was  negotiated  with 
the  Russian  Government  was  negotiated  with  what  agency  of  the 
United  States  Government? 

Mr.  HoopES.  I  am  not  entirely  sure.  It  wasn't  by  any  specific 
agency,  Mr.  Tavenner.  It  was  a  document  which  was  signed,  like 
a  treaty  between  ambassadors  of  the  various  countries.  It  wasn't 
just  with  the  Soviet  Government.  Great  Britain,  I  believe,  and  Ca- 
nada were  also  parties  to  the  protocol  agreement.  But  it  was  a  pro- 
gram which  was  worked  out  by  a  top  level  committee  composed  of 
our  highest  Government  officials,  including  the  people  from  the  Army 
and  Navy,  to  decide  what  materials  would  go  to  Russia  that  follow- 
ing year.  And  then  it  was  given  to  us.  We  were  on  what  you  may 
say  was  the  lower  echelon  level  of  this  job.  The  program  was  worked 
out,  and  it  was  given  to  us  to  carry  out. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  obtaining  the  priority  on  cash  purchases,  with 
whom  did  you  deal  in  the  War  Production  Board  ?     What  officials  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Hundreds  of  them. 

Mr.  Ta\t.nner.  Would  that  depend  upon  the  particular  character 
of  the  material? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes.  It  would  entirely.  Because  I  not  only  would 
deal  with  the  individuals  who  received  the  applications.  There  was 
one  whole  floor  in  the  building  that  did  nothing  but  receive  the  appli- 
cations and  see  that  they  funneled  to  the  right  branches.     But  then 


1104  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

I  dealt  with  the  people  in  all  the  branches  that  this  application  had 
to  go  by. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  let  us  come  right  to  the  question  that  we  are 
concerned  with,  here.  With  whom  did  you  deal  regarding  priorities 
for  the  export  of  uranium  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  didn't  deal  with  anybody  regarding  uranium.  You 
are  speaking  of  the  particular  April  transactions  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Any  transactions. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  never  had  any  dealing  with  anybody  in  the  War  Pro- 
duction Board  regarding  uranium. 

Mr.  Ta\tnner.  You  did  not.  Do  you  know  who,  of  the  Lend-Lease 
officials,  did  have  such 

Mr.  HooPEs.  Excuse  me.  Could  I  interpose  something  there,  that 
may  help  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  HooPES.  The  War  Production  Board  wasn't  always  the  con- 
trolling agency  as  far  as  a  decision  as  to  whether  an  item  was  avail- 
able or  not  was  concerned.  The  War  Production  Board  did  issue  the 
bulletins  that  were  previously  described  in  this  hearing,  setting  forth 
the  commodities  and  what  agency  or  what  person  or  what  group 
handled  that  commodity ;  but  it  might  very  well  be  that  certain  com- 
modities were  handled  by  other  groups  than  the  War  Production 
Board,  and  if  that  were  the  case,  we  had  to  deal  with  them. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  I  understand.  Well,  now,  do  you  know,  from  your 
contact  with  the  handling  of  uranium,  whether  or  not  the  War  Pro- 
duction Board  was  consulted  with  regard  to  priorities  for  uranium  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  understand  that  the  War  Production  Board  was 
consulted.     It  was  not  by  me. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  By  whom  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  believe  Mv.  Moore  had  to  do  with  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  did  you  consult  any  other  agency  with  regard 
to  the  export  of  uranium ?     You  or  any  other  official  of  your  staff? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Well,  I  am  not  sure  who  else  might  have  consulted 
anybody  else.  I  know  that  Mr.  Moore  was  handling  uranium.  The 
only  people  that  I  consulted  were  in  the  office  of  Colonel  Crenshaw 
in  New  York,  and  that  was  because  I  had  a  memorandum  from  Mr. 
Moore  that  there  was  something  pending  on  a  particular  application, 
and  in  his  absence  I  happened  to  handle  that.  I  had  understood  that 
there  had  been  considerable  background  of  negotiations  and  clearance 
discussions  on  this  particular  thing,  and  it  had  reached  the  stage  where 
I  was  given  specific  instructions  about  it.  And  when  the  time  came, 
I  contacted  Colonel  Crenshaw's  office,  imder  instructions  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Is  that  the  first  experience  that  you  had  in  any 
transaction  relating  to  uranium  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  tell  us  about  the  negotiations  that  had  oc- 
curred, as  far  as  you  learned  of  them,  pertaining  to  this  shipment, 
which  I  believe  was  the  1,000-pound  shij)ment. 

Mr.  HooPBS.  Well,  sir,  I  believe  you  have  more  records  than  I  on 
that.  _  I  went  up  yesterday  afternoon  and  saw  some  of  the  old  records 
on  this,  which  I  understand  were  turned  over  to  this  committee  some 
time  ago. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1105 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  understand  that  Mr.  Moore  had  been  dealing  in  this 
matter  with  the  Russians  and  with  General  Groves'  office  and  with  the 
WPB.  I  did  not  acquaint  myself  with  all  the  details  of  that,  except 
to  know  that  this  particular  transaction,  that  application  for  500 
pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  and  600  pounds  of  uranium  oxide,  had  been 
disapproved.  I  got  into  the  picture  at  that  time,  when  it  had  been 
disapproved  by  our  office,  and  a  letter  had  gone  to  the  Russians  advis- 
ing them  that  it  was  of  a  critical  nature  and  could  not  be  supplied. 

When  Mr.  Moore  went  away,  in  April — and  I  am  not  positive  of  the 
date — he  left  a  memorandum  for  me  advising  that  it  might  be  possible 
to  obtain  some  substitutes  for  uranium  compounds,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Walter.  Have  you  the  memorandum  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  No,  sir,  I  don't  have  the  memorandum. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  have  any  note  or  personal  memorandum 
that  you  made  at  the  time  regarding  this  transaction  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  sir ;  I  do. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  let  us  start  with  that. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  have  a  note  on  April  16,  19-1:3,  and  this  note  is  in  a 
little  diary  notebook  that  I  kept  during  the  course  of  the  day's  activi- 
ties, and  from  which  I  later  made  up  daily  diaries,  which  we  sub- 
mitted to  the  head  of  our  division  every  day,  of  work  that  went  on. 
And  I  have  a  note  here  indicating  that  Mr.  Fomichev  called  regarding 
500  pounds  of  uranium  oxide  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  to 
be  supplied  from  Chematar,  Inc.,  of  New  York  City.  My  note 
doesn't  say  any  more  than  that,  but  sometimes  it  didn't.  The  diary 
for  that  day  I  think  you  also  have.  This  is  the  daily  report  that  was 
typed  up,  dated  April  17, 1943,  for  activities  on  the  16th.  One  of  the 
items  appears  as  follows : 

Conferred  with  Mr.  Fomichev  regarding  application  for  export  licenses  for 
1,000  pounds  of  uranium  compounds,  on  which  Soviets  had  option.  This  request 
has  definitely  been  turned  down  by  this  division  because  of  strategic  need  of 
materials  in  this  country.  Mr.  Fomichev  was  advised  to  consider  the  matter 
closed  as  to  this  particular  reciuest,  but  that  inquiries  were  being  made  as  to 
allocation  of  any  possible  substitute  materials. 

In  one  of  the  instructions  that  Mr.  Moore  had  left  for  me — I  think 
the  details  are  in  a  memo,  there. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  No,  the  details  are  not  in  the  memo.  I  will  read 
you  this.    This  much  does  appear  from  the  memo  of  April  19 : 

Uranium :  This  Is  being  handled  by  General  Hoopes,  who  should  be  advised  by 
General  Wesson  should  matters  become  excessively  complicated. 

Mr.  HooPES.  Don't  you  have  another  memo  there  on  that,  about 
that  date?  There  was  a  memo  that  I  saw  yesterday  that  didn't  have 
an  exact  date,  but  it  indicated  that  Mr.  Moore — it  was  to  me  and 
stated  that  it  may  be  possible  to  obtain  the  substitutes  and  that  Colonel 
Crenshaw's  office  was  forwarding  us  a  list  of  substitutes,  and  if  I  did 
not  receive  them  by  the  following  Monday  I  was  to  call  Colonel 
Crenshaw's  office,  and  then  later  to  take  the  matter  up  with  General 
Wesson. 

Mr.  McSwEENEY.  What  are  the  substitutes  for  uranium? 

Mr.  HooPES.  That  is  in  the  letter,  sir.  I  am  not  familiar  with 
them. 

Mv.  Tavenner.  We  have  a  memorandum  similar  to  that,  but  that 
is  in  June  1043.  That  is  the  memorandum,  then,  that  you  are  speaking 
of,  that  should  have  been  dated  in  April  ? 

99334—50 14 


1106  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes.  It  must  be,  sir.  Because  it  was  tied  in  with  the 
instructions  for  me  to  carry  out  when  Mr.  Moore  was  away. 

Mr.  Walter.  Who  put  the  date  of  June  on,  when  it  should  have 
been  April  ^ 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  don't  know,  sir. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  Will  you  look  at  the  memorandum  and  state 
whether  that  is  the  memorandum  to  which  you  referred  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  that  is  it. 

Mr.  Walter.  When  was  that  memorandum  made? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  don't  know  when  it  was  made,  Mr.  Walter.  It  says 
on  it  "June  1943,"  but  that  is  obviously  wrong. 

Mr.  Walter.  Whose  memorandum  is  it? 

Mr.  HooPES.  It  is  from  Mr.  Moore  to  me. 

Mr.  W^vLTER.  To  you? 

Mr.  HoopES.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  This  was  a  copy  prepared  by  the  State  Department? 

Mr.  HooPES.  This  is  a  copy,  and  perhaps  in  copying  it  they  may 
have  made  an  error  as  to  the  date.  I  do  not  know.  Mr.  Moore  may  be 
able  to  clear  you  up  on  the  date  of  this  memo.    I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  AVill  you  read  it,  please  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes.    This  copy  says : 

June  1943. 
For  :  J.  P.  Hoopes 
From  :  W.  C.  Moore. 
Subject :  Urauium  compounds. 

It  appears  that  it  may  be  possible  to  get  ferro-uraniiim  compounds,  and  the 
information  should  be  sent  to  yon.  I  have  talked  with  Colonel  Crenshaw's  office 
in  New  York  and  given  tliem  your  name.  If  you  do  not  get  information  by  Mon- 
day, call  them  up.    Mrs.  Cochran  has  the  number. 

Get  sufficient  specifications  so  that  the  Soviets  can  make  decisions  as  to 
whether  it  is  suitable  for  their  needs  and,  if  possible,  quantities  available. 

Captain  Johnston  of  General  Groves'  office  is  the  man  in  Washington  who  may 
be  able  to  help  you. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Well,  did  you  follow  the  direction  of  Mr.  Moore  and 
call  Colonel  Crenshaw's  office  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yes,  I  did.  Evidently  the  list  didn't  come  in  Monday 
morning,  that  they  referred  to,  and  1  called  Colonel  Crenshaw's  office. 

Mr.  Walter.  Mr.  Hoopes,  referring  to  that  memorandum  again,  you 
saw  the  original  memorandum,  didn't  you? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  saw  it  in  1943,  sir. 

Mr.  Ta-st^nner.  Did  you  see  it  recently  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  No,  sir.  I  saw  the  same  thing  that  you  have  here,  just 
a  compilation  of  material  that  has  a  bearing  on  all  these  transactions. 
I  haven't  seen  the  original  memo ;  no. 

INIr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  recall,  from  your  independent  recollection, 
that  the  matter  of  substitutes  arose  in  April  1943  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yes,  sir;  I  do.  That  is  borne  out  by  the  subsequent 
correspondence  which  we  have. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  It  definitely  ties  into  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  All  right.    So  will  you  proceed,  then  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Well,  it  seems  that — I  don't  know  Avhen  it  was  received, 
but  there  was  a  letter  from  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  to  our 
office  dated  April  20,  in  which  the  Russians  were  upset  about  our 
having  turned  down  this  particular  application  previously,  and  they 
stated,  in  there 


SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATERIAL  1107 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Let  me  hand  you  what  purports  to  be  a  copy  of  the 
letter,  furnished  by  the  State  Department,  and  I  ask  you  if  that  is  the 
letter  to  which  you  refer. 

Mr.  HoopES.  That  is  the  one  I  was  talking  about,  sir;  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  will  you  read  the  letter,  please  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  This  letter  is  dated  April  20,  1943.    It  is  addressed  to : 

Major  General  Charles  M.  Wesson, 
Senior  Assistant  Administrator, 

Office  of  Lend-Lease  Administration, 

515  Twenty-second  Street  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Deak  General  Wesson  :  We  were  advised  by  your  office  that  our  application 
of  April  3,  1948,  for  export  license  for  500  pounds  of  urano-uranic  oxide  and  .500 
pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  had  been  declined.  Needless  to  say  this  decision 
upsets  the  most  urgent  efforts  of  our  war  industries  at  present. 

In  view  of  the  rejection  of  our  two  requisitions  for  uranium  compounds  by  the 
War  Department,  we  hoped  to  obtain  small  quantities  of  uranium  compounds  by 
direct  purchase  for  cash.  In  fact  we  had  several  propt)sitions  from  American 
companies.  The  materials  were  offered  from  the  stock  for  immediate  delivery. 
Your  office  was  kept  informed  about  all  negotiations  with  those  companies. 
Nevertheless,  the  conceivable  purcliase  of  uranium  compounds  was  not  authorized. 

Because  of  the  very  lu-gent  needs  which  you  have  always  appreciated,  I  would 
vei*y  much  appreciate  your  reconsidering  the  above  decision  of  your  office,  and 
to  authorize  us  to  buy  50O  pounds  each  of  the  afore-mentioned  uranium  com- 
pounds and  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal,  for  which  we  also  have  a  proposition. 

Thank  you  for  your  early  attention  to  this  matter. 
Sincerely  yours, 

N.  S.  Stepanov. 
Chief  of  Petroleum  Products,  Chemical  Department. 

Mr.  Taatnxer.  Let  me  ask  you  one  question  about  the  letter.  There 
is  a  statement  here  that — 

in  fact  we  had  several  propositions  from  American  companies.  The  materials 
were  offered  from  the  stock  for  immediate  delivery.  Your  office  was  kept 
informed  about  all  negotiations  with  those  companies. 

Now,  what  information  did  you  receive  regarding  companies  which 
had  materials  in  stock  for  delivery  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  That  took  place  during  the  time  that  Mr.  Moore  was 
handling  this,  before  I  got  into  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  had  no  knowledge  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavi:nner.  All  right,  sir. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  On  the  22d  of  April — I  gather  that  the  letter  that  I  had 
been  expecting  from  Colonel  Crenshaw's  office  with  the  list  of  uranium 
compounds  hadn't  arrived,  because  I  have  a  note  here,  "Call  Colonel 
Crenshaw"  and  then  I  have  a  note  "Out"  and  then  later  "Captain 
Merritt."  The  number  is  "Murray  Hill  3-1761,"  subject  "Uranium 
compounds,"  and  then  "Captain  Merritt"  and  then  the  substance  of 
what  he  advised  me : 

Said  pressure  had  just  been  brought  to  bear  on  General  Groves  to  release  the 
1,000  pounds.  Colonel  Crenshaw  is  willing  for  Russians  to  have  the  list  of 
substitutes.  Please  try  to  hold  off  approval  of  the  1,000  pounds  till  Russians 
have  chance  to  see  the  substitute  list. 

Now,  after  this- 


Mr.  Tavenner.  Just  before  you  leave  that:  Did  Captain  Merritt 
explain  anything  further  as  to  what  he  meant  about  pressure  being 
brought  to  bear  upon  General  Groves  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  No,  sir ;  he  did  not. 


1108  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  3^011  have  any  conversation  with  Captain  Mer- 
ritt  or  any  other  member  of  the  Manhattan  Engineering  District  with 
regard  to  that  statement? 

Mr.  HoopES.  No,  sir.  Captain  Merritt  is  the  only  person  I  have  ever 
talked  to  in  the  Manhattan  District. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  All  right.     Proceed. 

Mr.  HooPES.  After  this  conversation,  I  have  a  note  here  that  I  spoke 
with  General  Wesson.  I  went  in  and  talked  to  General  Wesson.  Mr. 
Moore  had  indicated  previously  that  I  was  to  take  the  matter  up  with 
General  Wesson. 

In  discussing  with  General  Wesson,  1  explained  to  him  my  con- 
versation with  Captain  Merritt.  I  just  indicated  what  I  have  read 
here.  And  General  Wesson  said  he  wanted  to  speak  to  General 
Groves.  He  gave  instructions  to  his  secretary  to  get  him  General 
Groves  on  the  phone. 

I  have  a  note  here : 

Spoke  with  General  Wesson.  He  called  General  Groves.  Got  Groves  to  say 
O.  K.  to  export  the  1,000  pounds  iiraniiim  compounds.  Genei'al  Wesson  agreed  to 
write  Soviets  approving  the  request. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  the  decision  to  approve  the  request  for  the 
issuance  of  an  export  license  was  made  at  the  time  of  that  telephone 
conversation  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  would  believe  so,  sir. 

Mr.  Walter.  Were  you  present  when  the  telephone  conversation 
took  place  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Mr.  Walter,  I  don't  remember.  I  remember  distinctly 
General  Wesson's  giving  instructions :  "Get  me  General  Groves." 

And  it  was  generally  a  pretty  busy  office  around  there,  and  I  don't 
remember  whether  I  stayed  during  the  conversation  or  not.  I  rather 
imagine  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Walter.  It  was  shortly  thereafter  that  you  were  informed  that 
permission  had  been  granted  for  the  export  of  this  1,000  pounds? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  apparently  right  after  General  Wes- 
son's conversation  with  General  Groves,  because  I  have  tied  it  all  in 
on  the  same  note  here.  There  are  no  intervening  phone  calls  or  any- 
thing else,  so  it  must  have  been  immediately  after  that  telephone 
conversation  that  General  Wesson  gave  me  the  instructions. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  what  was  the  date  of  that  memorandum  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  This  memorandum  is  dated  April  22. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  was  the  day  on  which  you  talked  to  Colonel 
Crenshaw's  office  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  That  is  right,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  spoke  to  Captain  Merritt? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yes,  sir. 

After  getting  these  instructions  from  General  Wesson 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Let  me  ask  you  this:  Did  General  Wesson  make 
any  statement  to  you  as  to  the  reason  for  approving  the  issuance  of 
this  license  on  the  22d  of  April  or  at  any  later  date  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  don't  recall  exactly  whether  he  made  his  statement 
to  me.  I  assume  that  he  did,  because  in  my  report  I  said  something 
about  the  reason,  in  my  later  report.  I  assume  that  we  had  some  brief 
conversation  about  it.  But  I  don't  remember  all  of  it.  I  can't  swear- 
to  that,  sir. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 


1109 


Mr.  Tavenner.  That  was  written  in  your  report  of  May  31,  sum- 
marizing these  transactions. 

Mr.  HooPES.  Well,  there  was  a  report  earlier  than  that.  There  was 
a  report  for  the  activities  of  April  22. 

No,  it  doesn't  give  that.    Shall  I  read  you  my  report  for  that  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes ;  read  from  your  report. 

Mr.  HooPES.  This  is  from  my  diary,  dated  April  23, 1943,  for  activi- 
ties of  the  22d  : 

Conferred  with  Captain  Merritt  in  the  oflSce  of  Colonel  Crenshaw,  of  War 
Department  Engineers,  New  York  City,  on  recent  list  of  various  substitutes  for 
particular  uranium  compounds  desired  by  Soviets.  General  Wesson  arranged 
with  General  Groves  for  clearance  of  the  original  Soviet  application  for  1,000 
pounds  of  such  compounds,  which  the  Soviets  claim  they  can  procure  from  stock. 
Prepared  letter  for  General  Wesson  advising  Soviets  accordingly  in  light  of  their 
urgent  need  for  this  material.    Export  license  now  being  put  tiirough. 

Mr.  Walter.  As  I  understand  it,  General  Wesson  was  opposed  to 
granting  the  permit.  It  was  not  until  after  this  telephone  call  that 
he  agreed  to  allow  it. 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes;  that  is  true.  This  is  conjecture,  because  I  hadn't 
been  in  the  early  negotiations  about  this,  but  we  had  been  apparently 
advised  of  the  tight  supply  of  this  particular  material.  I  myself 
knew  nothing  of  the  atomic  project  or  nothing  of  the  strategic  situa- 
tion about  uranium.  All  the  instructions  I  had  received  was  that  they 
couldn't  get  this  material.  And  it  wasn't  until  the  conversation  Gen- 
eral Wesson  had  with  General  Groves  that  he  made  the  decision. 

My  memo  here  to  Mr.  Moore  expands  that  a  little  bit. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  But  take  the  occurrences  in  the  order  in  which  they 
took  place. 

Mr.  HooPES.  Well,  on  the  23d,  the  export  license  was  approved  to 
cover  this  request  for  500  pounds  of  urano-uranic  oxide  and  500  pounds 
of  uranium  nitrate. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  hand  you  what  appears  to  be  a  copy  of  the  appli- 
cation for  the  export  license,  with  the  notation  at  the  foot  of  it  by  you. 
Will  you  examine  it  and  state  if  that  is  a  copy  of  the  application  ? 

Mr.  HooPEs.  I  don't  know.  I  assume  it  is.  I  mean  these  are  ex- 
cerpts. I  know  that  I  did  make  such  a  note  on  it  and  we  put  the 
export  license  through.  I  don't  know  whether  there  was  any  other 
material  than  this.  This  seems  to  give  the  details  from  the  export- 
license  application. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  will  you  read  it,  please,  into  the  record? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  sir.    This  says : 

The  following  apparently  copied  from  the  export  license. 
It  is  an  application  for  export  dated  April  23, 1943. 


Order  number 

Units 

Supplier 

Value 

21-73/C  43058...- 

500  pounds  urano-uranic  oxide  99.5  percent  pure,  at  $4.50-. 
500  pounds  uranium  nitrate  (uranyl)  at  $2.25,  total  gross 
weight  1,200  pounds. 

Chematar,  Inc 

$3,375 

Note. — This  application  has  been  held  up  for  some  time.  It  has  now  been 
approved  by  General  Wesson  as  of  April  22,  1943. 

That  is  all  that  is  on  that  note.  I  don't  know  whether  this  other 
note  is  attached  to  it  or  not.  There  is  another  note  on  the  next  page 
here. 


1110  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Ta^t:nner.  What  is  tlio  date  of  that  note  ? 

Mr,  HoopES.  April  22  is  the  date  of  this  other  note.  It  is  a  note 
appended — I  will  assume  it  is  appended  to  the  other  note.  It  is 
addressed  to  Mrs.  Hall,  but  there  is  no  signature — no  indication  of 
a  signature — on  either  one  of  these  notes. 

Mr.  Ta\'exner.  Will  j^ou  read  it?  Doesn't  it  indicate  that  it  was 
signed  by  a  person  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  No,  sir ;  it  doesn't  indicate  it  was  signed  by  a  person. 
It  says,  "Received  from  J.  Hoopes." 

Mr.  TA^'ENNER.  Received  from  ?     All  right. 

Mr.  HooPEs.  Yes,  sir.     It  is  a  note  to  Mrs.  Hall. 

General  Wesson  has  decided  that  this  export  license  be  approved  and  issued  as 
soon  as  possible.     Received  from  J.  Hoopes. 

Office  note :  Indicates  license  No.  C-1G431S0  assigned  on  April  23,  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  that  license  number  assigned  by  your  office  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  gather  that  it  was,  sir.  I  do  not  remember  that 
procedure.  Mr.  Moore  handled  the  export  licenses  and  I  don't  know 
whether  they  were  numbers  given  to  us  by  the  Board  of  Economic  War- 
fare which  we  assigned  as  we  approved  them  or  whether  they  were  our 
own  numbers.  We  put  the  number  on  the  export  license.  I  do  know 
that. 

Mr.  Tavexner.  All  right.    Will  you  proceed? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Well,  on  the  23d,  a  letter  was  written  by  General  Wes- 
son to  Mr.  Stepanov  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission.  Do  you 
wish  me  to  read  that? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr.  HooPES  (reading)  : 

Your  letter  of  April  20,  requesting  reconsideration  of  your  application  for 
export  license  covering  500  pounds  of  urano-uranic  oxide  and  500  pounds  of 
uranium  nitrate  has  received  careful  study. 

Having  in  mind  tlie  urgency  of  your  needs  for  this  material  as  expressed  in 
your  letter,  I  have  reviewed  the  situation.  Our  supply  of  these  uranium  com- 
pounds is  critical.  However,  I  am  recommending  approval  of  your  present  ex- 
port license  for  the  above  quantities,  whicli  you  state  that  you  can  iiurchase 
from  stocks  on  hand. 

As  regards  the  25  pounds  of  lu-anium  metal  also  mentioned  in  your  letter, 
we  shall  entertain  application  for  this  material  provided  you  can  locate  a  source 
of  supply. 

Sincerely  yours, 

C.  M.  Wesson, 
Major  Oeneral  United  States  Army, 

S&nior  Assistant  Administrator. 

Mr.  Walter.  When  was  that  letter,  please  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  The  date  of  that  letter  was  April  23,  sir. 

Mr.  Walter.  And  that  was  signed  by  General  Wesson  ? 

Mr.  HooPEs.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  notifying  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commis- 
sion of  the  approval  of  the  license. 

Now,  what  was  the  nexr  thing  that  occurred  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  have  a  note,  on  April  26,  of  a  telephone  call  that  I 
received  from  Mr.  Fomichev  of  the  Commission. 

JNIr.  Tavenner.  That  is,  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  sir.    He  states : 

Option  expired  for  uranium  compounds.  Will  send  license  application  for 
25  pounds  uranium  metal. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1111 

That  is  all  that  note  says.    I  wrote  it  up  a  little  fuller  in  the  diary. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  3'ou  make  a  comment  of  your  own  at  that  time, 
after  receiving  the  notice  that  the  option  had  expired  which  the 
Russians  had  expected  to  use  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  sir,  I  did.  As  I  understand  it,  or  as  I  understood 
it  at  the  time,  it  was  that  General  AYesson  and  General  Groves  were 
skeptical  as  to  the  fact  that  the  Russians  could  get  this  material. 
Chematar  was  the  supplier,  and  Chematar  was  the  hroker,  and  when 
the  request  was  approved  I  believe  it  was  approved  on  the  assumption 
that  they  would  never  be  able  to  fill  it.  And  when  Fomichev  called 
and  advised  that  he  could  no  longer  get  it,  it  sounded  as  if  the  original 
assumption  was  correct. 

]\Ir.  Tavenner.  And  did  you  not  make  some  notation  at  the  time, 
in  your  diary,  with  regard  to  that? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  In  my  daily  report  ?    Yes,  I  did. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  In  your  daily  report.  Will  you  state  what  that 
was  'I 

]\Ir.  HooPES.  On  April  27th,  for  activities  on  the  26th,  I  have  a  note 
here : 

Conferred  with  Mr.  Fomichev,  who  expressed  dismay  at  inability  to  locate 
uranium  compounds  now  that  the  export  license  has  been  granted.  This  de- 
velopment seems  to  confirm  our  skepticism  regarding  the  stock  supply  which 
the  Russians  insisted  had  been  offered  from  several  sources. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  communicate  that  information  to  General 
Wesson;  that  is,  the  information  that  you  had  received  about  the 
supply  being  exhausted  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  assume  that  I  did,  Mr.  Tavenner.  I  don't  have  a 
definite  recollection  of  it.  I  did  certainly  in  this  diary,  because  all 
these  diaries  were  written  up  as  .reports  of  our  activities  and  were 
funneled  in  to  General  Wesson  so  that  he  could  see  what  had  been 
going  on.  So  I  imagine  I  spoke  to  him  about  it.  I  don't  have  any 
distinct  note  of  that.  I  don't  believe  I  do,  anyhow.  That  memo- 
randum of  mine  to  Mr.  Moore  may  indicate  that,  which  you  have  in 
the  record. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  do  you  have  any  other  record  there  of  trans- 
actions before  you  made  a  summary  report  on  May  1  ? 

Mr.  HoopES.  I  haven't  any  other 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is,  action  that  you  were  familiar  with  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  don't  believe  so,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  have  any  knowledge  of  the  issuance  of  an 
amended  or  approval  of  an  amended  license  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  No,  sir.  I  am  not  sure  that  one  was  amended.  I  know 
there  has  been  a  lot  of  discussion  about  it  before  this  committee,  but 
I  don't  know  that  there  ever  was  an  amended  license. 

]\Ir.  Tavenner.  Well,  now,  right  in  that  connection,  have  you  seen 
a  request  to  amend  the  license  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yesterday  afternoon  I  saw  this  request  dated  April  28 
from  the  Russians. 

Mr.  Taa-enner.  Yes.     Had  yovi  seen  that  before  yesterday  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  No,  sir ;  I  had  not. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  know  of  the  fact  that  such  a  letter  had  been 
written  prior  to  yesterday  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  No,  sir.     The  request  was  not  addressed  to  us. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  To  whom  was  it  addressed  ? 


1112 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 


Mr.  HoorES.  Do  you  have  a  copy  of  it  there?  I  took  notes  from 
that.  Yours  woukl  be  more  complete  than  mine.  It  was  addressed 
to  "Mr.  Thad  C.  Martin." 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  HoopES.  "Administrative  Officer"  or  "Administrative  Office" — 
I  don't  know  which  it  was — "Operations  Branch,  Office  of  Exports, 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare." 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  show  you  a  letter  of  April  28,  1943,  addressed  to 
Mr.  Martin,  as  you  said.     Will  you  read  it  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  It  is  dated  April  28, 1943,  addressed  to : 

Mr.  Thad  C.  Martin, 

Administration  Officer,  Operation  Branch, 

Office  of  Exports,  Board  of  Economic  Warfare, 

Room  2032,  Tempo  U  Building,  Twelfth  and  Constitution  Avenue, 
Washington,  D.  C. 

In  reference  to  the  above  export  license  number — 


Dear  Sib 
excuse  me 


It  was  preceded  by- 


Re  :  export  license  No.  1643180. 

Dear  Sir  :  In  reference  to  the  above  export  license  number,  co\  ering  500  pounds 
of  urano-uranic  oxide  and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate,  we  request  that  the 
license  be  amended  as  follows : 


Net  weight 

Commodity 

Unit 
price 

Total 
price 

finn  pnnnd.q 

Urano-uranic  oxide,  95-98  percent  pure 

$3.10 
2.85 

$1,550 

fiOn  ponnd.<? 

TTranium  Pitrafp  (nitrourfl-nyl) 

1,425 

Grand  total 

2,975 

By  the  time  our  application  had  received  a  decision,  the  supplier,  Chematar, 
Inc.,  found  it  necessary  to  change  the  specification  of  urano-uranic  oxide  and 
also  the  prices  for  both  materials,  to  which  changes  we  gave  our  consent.    Your 
attention  to  this  matter  will  be  appreciated  by  us. 
Very  truly  yours, 

N.    S.  FOMICHEV, 

In  Charge  of  Chemicals. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  that  letter  is  addressed  to  the  Board  of  Eco- 
nomic Warfare,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  is  it  that  you  have  a  copy  of  that  in  your  files  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  haven't  the  faintest  idea. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  When  it  was  testified  this  morning  by  Mr.  Wallace, 
as  I  recall  it  and  understand,  applications  were  made  solely  to  Lend- 
Lease  and  were  never  made  to  the  Bureau  of  Economic  Warfare.  Did 
yow  hear  that  testimony  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yes;  I  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  so  understand  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  You  mean  you  understand  that  that  is  a  fact  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes;  I  understand  that  to  be  his  testimony. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Well,  that  was  what  was  supposed  to  happen.  But 
the  Russians  didn't  always  conform  to  all  procedures,  and  it  was  quite 
possible  that  when  they  couldn't  get  something  in  one  place  they  would 
pop  up  somewhere  else  to  see  if  they  could  get  it.  That  was  one  reason 
why  we  ultimately  changed  their  release  certificate,  their  export  license 
procedure.  It  wasn't  anything  to  do  with  this,  but  it  was  the  idea  of 
trying  to  get  the  Russians  to  come  to  one  office  in  the  Government  and 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1113 

not  be  going  all  over  town ;  because  that  way  there  might  be  duplicate 
approvals,  and  nobody  could  program  anything. 

Mr.  Walter.  May  t  interrupt  you  at  that  point  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Walter.  When  tlie  approval  was  received,  who  received  the 
physical  possession  of  the  export  license  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  believe  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  did,  Mr. 
Walter. 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes.  Then,  if  they  received  the  possession  of  the 
paper  authorizing  the  exportation  of  something  that  wasn't  in  short 
supply,  there  was  no  reason  why  that  permission  could  not  have  been 
attached  to  something  that  there  was  a  short  supply  of,  was  there? 

Mr.  HoopES.  Well,  the  export  license  itself  had  details  of  the  com- 
modity which  was  to  be  shipped,  and  it  went  with  that  material. 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes;  I  understand  that  full  well.  But  suppose  they 
were  interested  in  obtaining  material  that  our  Government  felt  they 
should  not  have,  and  they  were  able  to  find  a  manufacturer  or  a  pro- 
ducer who  was  willing  to  let  them  have  that  material.  It  could  have 
been  crated,  and  to  the  crate  could  have  been  affixed  this  license  that 
was  given  to  them  for  the  material  that  was  not  in  short  supply. 

Mr.  HoopES.  The  export  license  contained  the  information,  as  I 
recall,  of  the  supplier,  and  the  supplier  in  this  case  was  Chematar. 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes. 

Mr.  HooPES.  And  Chematar  was  purchasing  it  from  someone  else. 
Your  question  is  whether  it  wouldn't  have  made  any  difference  who 
Chematal'  was  purchasing  it  from;  that  they  could  use  it  for  any 
shipment  ? 

Mr.  Walter.  Precisely. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  am  not  so  sure  of  that,  although  I  am  not  familiar 
enough  with  the  old  export  licenses  to  know,  sir. . 

Mr.  Walter.  Assuming  the  physical  possession  of  the  license  was 
delivered  over  to  the  Soviet  and  they  wanted  to  export  something 
that  we  felt  they  should  not  export,  and  assuming  that  they  could 
find  somebody  who  was  willing  to  do  business  with  them,  there  is  no 
reason  why  the  package  that  that  article  finally  got  into  could  not 
have  contained  a  false  invoice  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  That  would  sound  so,  but  I  am  not  sure  but  what  the 
export  license  may  have  contained  information  as  to  the  shipper  or 
the  consignor.     I  would  have  to  see  one  of  the  forms. 

Mr.  Walter.  Well,  but  suppose  the  shipper  would  say  that  he  was 
going  to  ship  sulfuric  acid,  when  as  a  matter  of  fact  he  was  going 
to  ship  something  else.  "Wlio  would  know  what  was  inside  of  the 
container  after  the  license  had  been  attached  to  it  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  suppose  that  there  was  a  certain  amount  of  control 
at  all  the  points  of  export  by  way  of  examination  on  the  part  of  the 
port  authorities  and  any  other  people  who  were  responsible  for  export. 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes ;  but  you  know  that  none  of  the  materials  exported 
were  ever  examined.  None  of  the  crates  or  cartons  were  opened  to 
see  that  they  contained  what  the  outside  of  the  package  stated  they 
contained. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  imagine  that  is  true,  sir.  In  most  cases  they  weren't 
opened. 

I  don't  know  how  to  answer  your  question  as  to  items  that  were? 
in  stock  and  didn't  need  priorities  to  produce. 


1114  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Walt1':r.  Of  course,  this  is  perfectly  gratuitous,  but  it  certainly 
seems  to  me  that  we  were  very  lax  in  our  security  when  we  delivered 
over  to  the  Russians  physical  possession  of  the  permit  to  export. 
Proceed,  Mr.  Tavenner. 

Mr.  HooPES.  That  was  not  our  license,  understand. 
Mr.  Walter.  No. 

Mr.  TA^^ENNER.  Wlien  that  license  was  apjoroved  and,  as  the  evi- 
dence in  this  case  shows,  was  delivered  to  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Agency  on  the  26th  of  April,  from  that  moment  on  didn't  that  license 
virtually  occupy  the  position  of  a  check  payable  to  bearer,  so  that  they 
could  go  at  any  time,  find  the  material  at  any  time  during  the  life 
of  that  license,  and  make  a  shipment  under  it? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  frankly  don't  know  whether  there  were  any  restric- 
tions on  those  licenses  or  not  as  to  time.  On  our  later  release  certif- 
icates there  were.  There  was  a  closer  check  on  that.  It  expired  after 
a  certain  time  if  they  couldn't  get  it  and  ship  it,  and  it  would  have  to 
be  renewed  completely, 

Mr.  Ta\-enner.  After  approval  was  granted  by  your  agency,  Lend- 
Lease,  was  there  any  follow-up  investigation  to  determine  whether  or 
not  the  shipment  had  actually  been  made  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  No,  sir ;  except  in  regard  to  the  planning  of  shipping 
itself.  If  the  item,  for  instance,  was  a  large  project  of  considerable 
bulk  and  weight,  there  was  planning  done  as  to  the  shipping.  That 
was  handled  by  another  department  in  our  office,  and  it  followed  that, 
to  try  to  program  that.  On  the  other  hand,  there  were  some  requests 
for  specially  expedited  material  that  went  in  other  ways,-  by  air. 
Sometimes  medical  supplies  went  that  way.  Our  only  follow  up, 
ordinarily,  was  to  see  that  the  material  got  to  its  point  of  export  and 
got  on  its  way.  If  the  material  was  approved,  our  job  was  to  keep 
it  going. 

Mr.  TA^'ENNER.  All  right.  Now,  let  me  ask  you  this  question: 
Once  this  license  was  amended  and  the  shipment  made,  did  not  that 
shipment  have  to  be  assigned  some  priority  in  order  to  get  out  of 
Oreat  Falls,  Wis.,  on  the  same  day  on  which  it  arrived  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  don't  know,  sir.  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  that  phase 
of  it  at  all. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  have  got  no  priority  from  War  Production 
Board  on  this  shipment?    That  is,  Lend-Lease  got  no  priority? 

Mr.  HooPES.  No.  I  didn't.  I  don't  know  whether  it  had  been  ar- 
ranged in  any  other  way. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  have  enough  knowledge  of  the  situation  to 
be  able  to  state  whether  it  could  have  been  reshipped  on  the  same 
date  as  its  arrival  in  Great  Falls,  without  having  obtained  some  pri- 
ority from  some  source  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  No,  sir;  I  don't  really  have  enough  information  about 
that.    I  didn't  get  into  that  phase  of  it  at  all. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  in  going  back  to  the  amendment,  what  was 
your  practice  about  amending  approvals  of  licenses?  Was  that  done 
in  Lend-Lease,  or  was  it  done  in  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Well,  I  don't  recall  ever  having  any  of  them.  This 
was  the  first  export  license  thing  that  I  had  ever  gotten  into  as  far  as 
the  old  type  of  license  was  concerned.  I  don't  know  what  the  pro- 
cedure had  been.  Certainly,  ordinarily,  if  there  were  amendments  to 
the  request  itself,  if  the  Russians  came  to  us,  if  it  required  reconsidera- 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1115 

tion  or  a  different  material,  or  for  some  other  reason  it  required  otlier 
l^riorities,  we  had  to  pass  upon  that. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  would  you  not  also  have  been  required  to  pass 
upon  the  amendment  of  a  license  once  it  was  issued?  Was  it  not  just 
as  important  that  you  act  upon  the  matter  then  as  it  would  have  been 
when  you  received  your  initial  requisition? 

Mr.  HooPEs.  I  would  think  so,  sir.  I  mean,  in  answer  to  your 
question,  if  the  Russians  wanted  to  amend  a  request  I  think  it  would 
normally  have  to  come  to  us,  and  we  would  have  passed  upon  it;  yes. 
I  don't  find  any  record  that  this  request  did  come  to  us,  or  that  we  did 
pass  upon  it,  or  that  it  was  amended. 

Is  there  an  amended  license  anywhere?  I  mean,  that  we  know  as 
a  fact? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  There  is  testimony  in  the  record  that  it  was 
amended  on  the  29th  of  April,  the  next  day  after  this  letter  was  ad- 
dressed to  Board  of  Economic  Warfare. 

Mr.  HooPES.  It  may  be  possible,  Mr.  Tavenner,  that  the  Russians 
considered  this  type  of  an  amendment  something  which  they  should 
take  up  with  the  Board  of  Economic  Warfare,  because  of  the  Board 
of  Economic  Warfare  bulletins  on  the  subject  giving  instructions  as  to 
the  procedure  in  export  licenses.  And  the  change  was  one  of  reduction 
in  purity  and  reduction  in  price,  which  ordinarily  would  not  be  one 
that  the  American  Government  would  have  been  much  interested  in, 
in  the  general  run  of  requests.  And  so  it  may  very  well  be  that  the 
Russians  assumed  that  that  sort  of  thing  should  be  handled  with  the 
Board  of  Economic  Warfare.  I  am  just  surmising;  I  don't  know.  It 
apparently  was  not  handled  by  our  office. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Now,  I  understand  Mr.  Moore  was  absent  from  a 
date  somewhere  around  the  17th  of  April  until  some  day  in  May.  Is 
that  correct? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Or  the  latter  part  of  April.  I  am  not  sure  when  he 
came  back. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  make  a  report  to  him  upon  his  return  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  sir ;  I  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Setting  forth  in  greater  detail  what  had  transpired 
with  regard  to  these  transactions  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yes ;  I  made  a  memorandum,  which  you  have  there.  I 
have  it  in  the  old  testimony. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  have  it  there.     It  is  page  10.^^ 

Mr.  HooPES.  I  wrote  a  memorandum  to  Mr.  Moore  dated  May  1, 
1943: 

To  :   William  C.  Moore. 
From :    J.  Hoopes. 

Subject :    Summary  of  Recent  Events   on  Application  for  Export  License  on 
Uianium  Compounds. 

Lieutenant  Colonel  Crenshaw  of  the  Coi*ps  of  Eng^ineers  in  New  York  forwarded 
to  this  office  a  list  of  supplies  of  ferrouranium  which  were  at  one  time  available 
at  the  Latrobe  Electric  Steel  Co.  After  telephone  conversations  between  Mr. 
Hoopes  and  Captain  Merritt  in  Colonel  Crenshaw's  office,  permission  was  obtained 
from  that  office  to  release  to  the  Soviet  Commission  the  information  on  then 
available  stocks  of  ferrouranium  as  a  possible  substitute  for  the  urano-uranic 
oxide  and  uranium  nitrate  application  for  export  license,  which  had  been  denied 
by  this  office  April  14,  1943. 


^  Page  10  refers  to  transcript  of  earlier  testimony  which  lias  not  been  printed. 


1116  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Befoi-e  this  information  was  turned  over  to  the  Russians,  however,  Mr.  Hoopes 
was  notified  that  pursuant  to  telephone  conferences  between  General  Wesson 
and  General  Groves,  the  previous  decision  was  reversed  by  General  Groves  and 
General  Wesson,  and  it  was  decided  to  allow  the  Soviets  to  proceed  under  the 
export  license  to  obtain  the  particular  stocks  of  500  pounds  of  urano-uranic  oxide 
and  500  pounds  of  uranium  nitrate  previously  applied  for. 

General  Wesson  advised  that  actually  the  War  Department  was  anxious  to 
smoke  out  the  ultimate  source  from  which  Mr.  Rosenberg  was  going  to  fill  this 
order. 

Mr.  Hoopes  was  advised  by  General  Wesson  to  advise  the  Soviet  Commission 
of  this  new  decision,  pursuant  to  an  urgent  plea  for  reconsideration  of  the 
export  license  application  made  to  General  Wesson  by  Mr.  Stepanov  in  a  letter 
dated  April  20,  1943.  General  Wesson  decided  that  in  such  case  it  would  not 
be  necessary  to  forward  to  the  Soviets  any  further  information  regarding  ferro- 
uranium. 

Accordingly  the  Soviet  Commission  was  notified  by  letter  from  General  Wesson, 
April  22,  1943,  that  application  for  export  license  to  cover  the  above  quantities 
of  urano-uranic  oxide  and  uranium  nitrate  would  be  approved,  and  further  that 
this  office  would  entertain  application  for  export  license  for  25  pounds  of  uranium 
metal,  also  requested  in  Mr.  Stepanov's  letter,  April  20,  1943. 

Export  licenses  covering  500  pounds  of  urano-uranic  oxide  and  500  pounds  of 
uranium  nitrate.  Order  No.  21-73/L  43059  and  25  pounds  of  uranium  metal, 
Order  No.  21-73/C  43058,  have  now  been  issued  and  returned  to  the  Soviet 
Commission. 

A  curious  development  on  this  entire  matter  occurred  recently,  when  Mr. 
Fomichev  called  Mr.  Hoopes  and  stated  that  in  view  of  the  lapse  of  time  since 
the  submission  of  export  license  applications  for  urano-uranic  oxide  and  uranium 
nitrate,  the  Soviets  were  now  having  difficulty  in  locating  a  source  of  supply. 
Mr.  Hoopes  communicated  this  to  General  Wesson,  who  only  smiled. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Now,  did  the  Russians  agree  at  any  time  to  accept 
the  ferro-iiraniiiin  substitutes?  Was  the  proposition  actually  dis- 
cussed with  the  Russians,  and  if  so,  what  position  did  they  take  about 
it? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  The  proposition  was  discussed  with  them  before  we 
got  the  list  from  Colonel  Crenshaw's  office,  apparently,  and  I  believe 
they  were  advised  that  there  would  be  a  list  of  substitutes — or  I  don't 
know  whether  we  used  the  term  "substitutes,"  but  other  compounds 
given  to  them.  And  I  believe  the  list  from  Colonel  Crenshaw's  office 
came  in  the  same  day  that  I  talked  to  Captain  Merritt  on  the  phone. 
And  since  the  decision  of  General  Groves  was  to  let  them  have  this 
particular  material,  General  Groves  and  General  Wesson  apparently 
decided  not  to  go  any  further  with  the  information  as  to  ferro-uranium 
compounds.     I  don't  believe  that  list  was  ever  sent  to  the  Russians. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes.  But  before  that,  did  the  Russians  indicate 
that  they  would  not  accept  or  consider  accepting  substitutes  ?  Do  you 
have  that  in  your  report  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  don't  think  that  I  have  that  in  my  report,  Mr.  Taven- 
ner.  There  were  memos  and  letters  back  and  forth  while  Mr.  jNIoore 
was  handling  it.  I  don't  have  any  personal  knowledge  of  them.  And 
I  think  that  discussion  of  that  kind  had  taken  place  previously,  before 
I  got  into  this  picture. 

Mr.  Taa-enner.  Now,  what  officials  of  the  Board  of  Economic  War- 
fare were  consulted  by  you  about  the  issuance  of  this  particular 
license  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  don't  know  of  any. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  approved  it.  It  was  approved  on  the  22d. 
A  letter  was  sent  to  the  Russians  on  the  23d  advising  them  that  you 
had  approved  it? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Yes,  sir. 


I 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1117 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Now,  who  in  the  office  of  the  Board  of  Economic 
Warfare  actually  issued  the  license  ?     Do  you  know  ? 

Mr.  HooPES.  1  don't  know,  sir;  no.  I  don't  have,  apparently,  any 
records  at  all  indicating  that  we  had  any  correspondence  with  them 
or  any  talks  with  them  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Well,  do  you  know  the  practice  in  that  office  suffi- 
ciently well  to  state  who  is  likely  to  have  known  about  the  issuance 
of  that  license  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  No,  I  don't,  sir.  I  have  not  dealt  with  them  on  this 
at  all,  previously;  not  on  this  or  any  other  applications.  So  that  I 
don't  know  what  the  practice  had  been. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  of  any  type  of  pressure,  directly  or 
indirectly,  that  was  brought  to  bear  on  General  Groves  or  any  member 
of  his  staff  to  change  his  decision  about  the  approval  of  this  license? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  No  ;  I  don't  know  of  any  pressure  that  was  brought  to 
bear  on  him. 

I  am  not  entirely  sure  that  the  pressure  that  Captain  Merritt  was 
advising  me  of  over  the  phone  wasn't  the  pressure  that  he  suggested  in 
his  testimony ;  that  in  this  matter  there  was  so  much  to-do  about  it,  and 
the  Eussians  were  agitating  for  a  decision  as  to  whether  we  were 
going  to  let  them  have  the  material  or  not,  and  there  had  been  so 
much  negotiations  back  and  forth,  that  there  was  great  pressure  on  us 
for  a  decision.  And  it  may  have  been  that  General  Groves  was  talking 
about  that  same  thing.  They  wanted  to  get  it  decided  as  to  how  they 
were  going  to  handle  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  don't  have  any  further  questions. 

Mr.  McSweeney.  I  was  in  the  Army,  and  I  was  rather  interested 
as  to  your  very  complete  records.  Is  that  a  normal  course  for  you : 
to  keep  complete  records  of  things?  I  was  interested  in  your  notes 
and  the  records  that  you  kept. 

Mr.  Hoopes.  Well,  yes,  this  is  a  normal  course  for  me.  I  still  do  it, 
as  a  matter  of  fact.  I  had  a  notebook  that  I  used  during  the  course 
of  the  day,  that  I  used  for  the  purpose  of  jotting  down  a  note  if  I 
<;alled  someone  on  the  phone  or  they  called  me  or  somebody  came  in. 
It  was  mainly  for  the  purpose  of  my  making  up  the  diary  to  report  to 
the  head  of  our  division  each  day.  Because  we  saw  so  many  people 
during  the  day  that  we  wouldn't  remember  them. 

]\Ir.  JNIcSweeney.  Did  you  feel  that  a  lot  of  telephone  instructions, 
and  so  forth,  should  be  recorded  in  your  notebook  ?  Is  that  why  you 
did  it  ?  You  did  not  like  the  idea  of  too  many  telephonic  instructions 
coming  in  on  an  important  matter  ? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  I  did  it,  sir,  so  that  I  would  have  a  better  record  in  my 
own  mind.  There  were  so  many  coming  that  something  might  slip 
my  mind  by  the  end  of  the  day,  when  it  came  time  to  report  on  them. 

Mr.  McSweeney.  But  you  did  receive  a  lot  of  instructions  over  the 
telephone,  did  you  not,  to  do  this  and  that? 

Mr.  Hoopes.  A  great  many,  sir.  And  in  the  course  of  clearing  ap- 
plications, very  much  work  like  this  was  done  over  the  phone,  particu- 
larly in  priority  work,  in  talking  with  the  War  Production  Board  and 
that  sort  of  thing. 

.  Mr.  McS^vEENEY.  You  did  have  the  feeling  that  it  would  be  well  to 
have  those  telephonic  things  made  more  definite  in  your  own  mind  by 
taking  notes  on  them  ? 


1118  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL. 

Mr.  HooPES.  Yes,  sir ;  I  did  it  for  my  own  purposes,  so  that  I  could 
carry  on  my  work  easier. 

Mr.  McSwEEXFA'.  You  had  no  feeling,  then,  that  there  was  a  conflict 
of  authority  or  anything  that  might  put  you  in  an  embarrassing  posi- 
tion at  some  time  ?  * 

Mr.  HooPEs.  No,  sir.  It  did  help  on  many  occasions,  that  if  I  talked 
to  someone,  for  instance,  in  the  War  Production  Board,  that  had 
agreed  to  approve  a  certain  material,  and,  then,  if  the  application 
reached  him  and  he  did  not  approve  the  material,  I  had  a  record  that 
at  least  I  had  talked  to  him,  and  I  could  call  him  and  talk  to  him  again 
and  refer  him  to  it.  They  had  a  great  many  applications,  too,  so  that 
things  like  that  might  slip  their  mind.  So  it  assisted  me  in  carrying 
on  my  work  as  a  liaison  officer  to  keep  as  much  of  a  record  on  the  tele- 
phone work  that  I  did  as  I  could. 

Mr.  McSwEENEY.  I  am  ashamed  that  I  have  no  nice  record  like  that, 
and  I  commend  you  for  it. 

Mr.  Walter.  Is  there  anything  further  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Walter.  The  hearing  is  adjourned.  There  will  be  no  hearing 
tomorrow.  The  other  witnesses  that  were  here  have  been  notified 
that  they  are  still  under  subpena  and  will  be  called  when  we  next  meet. 

(Whereupon,  at  5 :  08  p.  m.,  the  committee  recessed  subject  to  the 
call  of  the  Chair.) 


I 


HEARINGS  REGARDING  SHIPMENT  OF  ATOMIC  MATERIAL 
TO  THE  SOVIET  UNION  DURING  WORLD  WAR  II 


THURSDAY,   MARCH   2,    1950 

United  States  House  of  Representatives, 

Committee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

Washington,  D.  G. 

public  hearing 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  10:  30  a.  m.,  in  room  226, 
Old  House  Office  Building,  Hon.  John  S.  Wood  (chairman)  presiding. 

Committee  members  present :  Representatives  John  S.  Wood  (chair- 
man), Francis  E.  Walter,  Burr  P.  Harrison  (arriving  as  indicated), 
Morgan  M.  Moulder,  Richard  M.  Nixon,  Francis  Case  (arriving  as 
indicated),  Harold  H.  Velde,  and  Bernard  W.  Kearney. 

Staff  members  present:  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  counsel;  Donald 
T.  Appell,  investigator;  John  W.  Carrington,  clerk;  Benjamin  Man- 
del,  director  of  research;  and  A.  S.  Poore,  editor. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  committee  will  be  in  order.  Let  the  record  disclose 
that  there  are  present  Messrs.  Walter,  Moulder,  Nixon,  Velde,  Kear- 
ney, and  Wood. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  since  Maj.  George  Racey  Jordan 
testified  at  a  subcommittee  hearing,  the  committee  staff  has  conducted 
an  investigation  of  the  shipment  by  air  of  uranium  compounds  and 
heavy  water  through  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  to  the  Soviet  Union,  and  the 
circumstances  under  which  such  shipments  were  made. 

Mr.  Courtney  E.  Owens,  an  investigator  of  this  committee,  has  pre- 
sented documentary  proof  relating  to  these  shipments. 

The  staff  has  likewise  investigated  the  circumstances  surrounding 
the  shipment  by  air,  through  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  to  the  Soviet  Union, 
of  cargoes  with  alleged  diplomatic  immunity  from  inspection  and 
censorship,  the  alleged  making  of  reports  or  complaints  by  Maj. 
George  Racey  Jordan  to  various  governmental  departments  concern- 
ing such  shipments,  and  official  action  taken  with  regard  thereto. 

I  desire  at  this  time  to  offer  Mr.  Donald  T.  Appell,  committee  inves- 
tigator, as  a  witness  on  these  matters  and  other  related  matters  which 
his  testimony  will  develop. 

Mr.  Velde.  Are  we  to  understand  this  is  a  continuation  of  the  hear- 
ings of  last  December  at  which  the  Republican  members  were  not 
present,  and  this  is  at  the  request  of  the  minority  members  of  the 
committee  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  It  is  a  continuation  of  the  hearings  that  we  had  last 
December. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  also  of  the  hearings  that  were  conducted  in 

January. 

1119 


1120  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  understand  this  also  bears  on  the  same  hearings  as  to 
which  the  statement  was  made  in  the  press  that  the  Jordan  story  was 
"inherently  incredible."     Is  that  right? 

Mr.  Walter.  Is  that  my  quote? 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  is  not  your  quote. 

Mr.  Walter.  Mine  was  similar. 

Mr.  Wood.  With  reference  to  the  absence  of  any  members  of  the 
committee  at  the  time  the  hearing  was  initiated,  I  understand  all  mem- 
bers of  the  committee  were  contacted,  or  an  effort  was  made  to  contact 
them,  at  the  time  the  testimony  of  Major  Jordan  was  heard.  Because 
of  the  peculiar  circumstances  that  existed  at  the  time,  the  hearing  had 
to  proceed ;  and  at  the  request  of  the  minority  members  we  have  brought 
Major  Jordan  back. 

Mr.  Appell,  do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  will  give 
this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DONALD  T.  APPELL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  are  you  an  investigator  for  this  com- 
mittee ? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  am. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  How  long  have  you  been  an  investigator? 

Mr.  Appell.  For  over  3  years. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Have  you  examined  the  documents  obtained  from 
the  Departments  of  State  and  Army  and  the  United  States  Air  Force 
which  disclose  correspondence  initiated  by  Mr.  George  Racey  Jordan 
relative  to  materials  passing  through  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  destined  for 
the  Soviet  Union  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes ;  I  have  examined  all  available  documents. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Wasn't  the  question  directed  to  correspondence  rath- 
er than  documents  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  asked  if,  in  his  examination  of  these  documents, 
he  discovered  any  correspondence  initiated  by  Mr.  Jordan. 

Mr.  Appell.  Certain  documents  relating  to  these  matters  were  pro- 
cured by  the  staff  from  the  Department  of  the  Army  and  the  United 
States  Air  Force.  Certain  specific  documents  were  requested  from 
the  State  Department,  some  of  which  have  been  furnished  and  some 
of  which  have  not  been  located,  but  I  am  familiar  with  the  documents 
which  have  been  procured. 

(Representative  Harrison  arrives  in  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  any  record  found  of  correspondence  initiated 
by  Major  Jordan  in  1943? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  The  Air  Force,  after  a  search  of  written  docu- 
ments, supplied  the  committee  with  four  letters  initiated  by  Major 
Jordan  between  March  1943  and  June  1943.  These  letters  dealt,  in 
great  part,  with  improving  the  operations  of  the  United  Nations  unit 
at  Gore  Field  and  other  conditions  relating  to  Jordan's  official  duties. 

(Representative  Case  arrives  in  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Appell  (continuing).  These  letters,  however,  contained  no  ref- 
erence to  any  irregularities  at  Gore  Field  on  shipments  of  uranium 
compounds  or  diplomatic  cargo.  Copies  of  these  communications  are 
set  forth  as  exhibits  A,  B,  C,  and  D  in  the  Air  Force  report. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1121 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  find  in  the  official  records  made  available 
to  you  any  reports  or  references  to  reports  made  by  Jordan  in  the 
year  1944,  relating  to  materials  passing  through  Great  Falls  under 
the  claim  of  diplomatic  immunity  from  inspection  or  censorship? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes ;  I  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Before  asking  you  to  testify  regarding  these  re- 
ports, I  want  to  develop  through  other  documents  the  problem  of 
handling  mail  and  baggage  at  Great  Falls  claimed  to  be  subject  to 
diplomatic  immunity.  Was  a  special  request  made  in  January  1944, 
by  the  Soviet  Government  Purchasing  Commission,  for  additional 
transportation  facilities  in  connection  with  the  movement  of  Soviet 
diplomatic  cargo  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  On  January  19,  1944,  Col.  S.  A.  Piskounov, 
Chief,  Aviation  Department,  of  the  Soviet  Government  Purchasing 
■Commission,  addressed  a  letter  to  Col.  H.  Ray  Paige,  Chief,  Inter- 
national Section,  War  Department,  in  which  it  is  stated  that  previously 
Soviet  mail  was  sent  from  Washington  to  Great  Falls  by  rail,  thereby 
necessitating  reloading  the  mail  three  times  en  route  to  Ladd  Field. 

In  order  to  avoid  these  difficulties  in  the  future,  he  requested  two 
C-47  planes,  twice  a  month,  to  be  sent  from  Oklahoma  City,  from 
the  number  of  planes  allocated  to  the  Soviet  Union,  to  Washington, 
where  the  Soviet  mail  would  be  loaded  and  sent  to  Fairbanks  with 
pilots  and  crews  of  the  Air  Transport  Command.  The  letter  indi- 
cated that  one  plane  had  been  so  dispatched  on  the  ISth  of  January, 
and  requested  that  another  plane  be  made  available  for  the  25th  of 
January,  and  one  for  the  30th  of  January,  in  order  that  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission  could  send  to  Moscow  its  complete  records 
ior  the  year  1913. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  herewith  tender  in  evidence  the  letter  of  January 
19, 1944,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  1." 

Mr.  Wood.  I  understand  this  is  a  photostatic  copy? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  A  photostatic  copy  of  the  letter ;  yes. 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  it  will  be  admitted. 

(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  1,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  '' 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Wliat  action  was  taken  on  this  request? 

Mr.  Appell.  On  January  22,  1944,  the  letter  was  transmitted  to 
Air  Section  Foreign  Liaison  Branch,  G-2,  with  an  indorsement  by 
•Colonel  Paige,  dated  January  24,  1944,  as  follows:  "Do  not  concur 
in  above  request"'  and  an  identical  indorsement  bearing  the  same  date 
over  the  initials  "J.  S.  C,"  and  a  subsequent  indorsement  as  follows: 

"OPD  will  concur  with  J.  S.  C.  and  with  ATC  which  is  short  of  crews  now  for 
moving  these  aircraft  from  Okla.  City  to  Fairbanks." 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  the  transmittal  letter  of  January 
22,  1944,  with  the  indorsements  referred  to,  and  request  that  it  be 
marked  "Appell  Exhibit  2." 

Mr.  Wood.  Again,  these  are  photostatic  copies  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  they  will  be  admitted. 
(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  2,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  ^^ 

^  See  appendix. 
^  See  appendix. 

99334—50 ^15 


1122  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Was  any  further  action  taken  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  On  February  14,  1944,  Brig.  Gen.  B.  E.  Meyers,  inter- 
national officer  for  the  American  Air  Force,  by  Col.  H.  R.  Paige,  ad- 
vised Air  Section  Foreign  Liaison  Branch,  (jr-2,  as  follows : 

1.  With  further  reference  to  the  above  subject  and  confirming  phone  conversa- 
tion between  Major  Brazeau  and  Colonel  Paige,  we  have  had  from  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission  verbal  request  to  withdraw  the  request  outlined  in  their 
letter  of  19  January  1944,  Ref.  No.  175,  which  was  transmitted  to  you  by  memo- 
randum on  22  January  1944. 

2.  Although  they  promised  at  the  time  to  confirm  this  withdrawal  in  writing 
they  have  not  done  so,  but  made  their  verbal  withdrawal  very  clear  and  desire 
that  their  letter  of  January  1944,  Kef.  No.  175,  be  considered  as  canceled. 

Mr.  Walter.  That  is,  the  letter  requesting  that  planes  be  made  avail- 
able to  fly  mail  direct? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  AValter.  And  they  wanted  that  withdrawn  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Withdrawn  and  canceled. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  a  photostatic  copy  of  that  letter 
of  February  14,  1944,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  3." 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  it  will  be  admitted. 

(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  3,"  is 
filed  herewith. )  ^^ 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  Was  an  additional  request  made  for  special  trans- 
portation facilities  by  air? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  On  February  24,  1944,  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission  requested  that  a  C-47  plane  be  flown  from  the  Oklahoma 
plant  to  Washington  by  March  2, 1944,  for  use  in  transporting  a  Soviet 
Commission  of  four  persons  and  Assistant  to  the  Chief  of  Foreign 
Trade  Commissariat,  and  4,000  pounds  of  baggage  from  Washington 
to  Fairbanks,  Alaska,  there  to  be  turned  over  to  the  Soviet  pilots. 

The  first  indorsement,  by  the  Deputy  for  Administration,  G-2, 
is  as  follows : 

This  oflBce  does  not  concur  in  the  proposal  to  transport  four  Soviet  personnel 
and  4,000  pounds  of  baggage  and  strongly  recommends  that  the  action  proposed 
be  not  taken. 

The  second  indorsement,  by  the  Commanding  General  of  the  Army 
Air  Forces,  called  attention  to  the  cancellation  of  the  earlier  request 
for  additional  transport  facilities  for  the  delivery  of  mail,  and  sug- 
gested that  consideration  be  given  for  the  allowance  of  this  request, 
under  date  of  February  29,  1944. 

And  by  the  third  indorsement,  of  March  6,  1944,  the  Deputy  for 
Administration  G-2  reversed  his  earlier  recommendation  and  ap- 
proved the  proposed  transportation. 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  AVooD.  Mr.  Case. 

Mr.  Case.  The  first  indorsement  was  against  the  proposal? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  And  the  second  indorsement  suggested  reconsideration? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  Who  suggested  the  second  indorsement  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Brig.  Gen.  B.  E.  Meyers. 


^  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1123 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  pliotostatic  copies  of  the  com- 
mimication  of  February  24, 1944,  and  the  attachments  annexed  thereto, 
and  ask  that  they  be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  4." 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  they  will  be  admitted. 

(The  documents  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  4,"  are 
filed  herewith.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Notwithstanding  the  vSoviet  Purchasing  Commis- 
sion withdrew  its  request  of  January  19, 1944,  that  two  planes  be  made 
available  twice  a  month  for  the  carrying  of  diplomatic  mail  from 
Washington  to  Fairbanks,  Alaska,  and  that  the  special  request  for  a 
plane  to  carry  four  Soviets  and  4,000  pounds  of  baggage  from  Wash- 
inston  to  Fairbanks  was  not  approved  until  March  3,  did  G-2  and  the 
OfRce  of  the  Commanding  Officer  of  the  Army  Air  Forces  discover  that 
such  special  facilities  were  being  used  by  the  Soviet  Government  dur- 
ing January  and  February  1944,  without  their  previous  knowledge 
and  approval  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  A  memorandum  by  Lt.  Col.  O.  T.  Jamerson. 
foreign-liaison  officer,  prepared  for  the  Deputy  Assistant  Chief  of 
Staff  G-2,  under  date  of  March  7,  1944,  stated  that  such  flights  oc- 
curred on  January  28,  February  15,  February  17,  and  February  28, 
in  which  3.563  pounds.  4,180  pounds,  4,000  pounds,  and  3,757  pounds, 
respectively,  of  diplomatic  mail,  were  sent  through  Great  Falls,  Mont., 
to  Fairbanks,  Alaska,  on  lend-lease  planes,  without  previous  knowl- 
edge of  Army  Air  Forces  or  the  Foreign  Liaison  Branch  of  Military 
Intelligence. 

Mr.  Ta^'enner.  How  did  the  Army  Air  Forces  or  the  Foreign  Liai- 
son Branch  of  Military  Intelligence  acquire  knowledge  of  this  use  of 
lend-lease  planes  by  the  Soviet  Government  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  On  February  29,  1944,  headquarters,  Army  Air  Forces, 
ATC  station,  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  sent  Foreign  Liaison  a  report  dated 
February  19,  indicatins:  that  on  February  17  four  Soviets  and  4,000 
pounds  of  mail  arrived  at  and  departed  from  Great  Falls. 

]\fr.  Tavexxer.  As  diplomatic  mail  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  So  stated. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  that  report  was  pre- 
pared by  Major  Jordan  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  No.  I  have  been  unable  to  obtain  a  copy  of  the  report. 
The  memorandum  from  the  Foreign  Liaison  Office,  dated  March  7, 
1944,  states : 

Major  .Tordan.  who  represents  Air  Staff  at  the  ATC  station  at  Great  Falls, 
is  reported  to  have  examined  one  of  the  paclvages  and  found  it  contained  blue- 
prints of  the  A-20  plane,  railroad  guides  showing  long-  and  short-haul  routes,  and 
other  technical  data. 

]\fr.  Tavexner.  I  tender  in  evidence  a  photostatic  copy  of  the  memo 
of  March  7,  1944,  just  referred  to  by  the  witness,  and  ask  that  it  be 
marked  "Appell  Exhibit  5." 

Mr.  Nixox.  Do  I  understand  this  report  by  Mr.  Jordan  was  made,, 
then,  in  1944,  the  one  referred  to  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  It  is  included  in  a  memorandum  for  the  Deputy  Assist- 
ant Chief  of  Staff,  G-2,  dated  March  7, 1944. 


«  See  appendix. 


1124  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Nixon.  One  of  the  issues  which  is  before  the  committee  is  the 
allegation  that  Mr.  Jordan  did  not  report  these  findings  of  his  to 
any  person.  I  want  that  point  particularly  cleared  up.  In  other 
words,  a  report  was  made  of  some  type,  according  to  this  memorandum 
you  are  reading  from  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  can  read  you.  the  exact  paragraph.  Paragraph  6 
of  the  memorandum  says : 

Meanwhile  on  29  February  Hq.  AAF,  ATC,  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  sent  Foreign 
Liaison  a  report  dated  19  February  (Ref.  N)  indicating  that  on  17  February  4 
Soviets  and  4,000  lbs.  diplomatic  mail  arrived  at  and  departed  from  Great  Falls. 

And  paragraph  7  says : 

Since  this  oflSce  had  no  knowledge  of  such  an  arrangement  a  memorandum 
was  forwarded  by  Foreign  Liaison  and  on  3  March  to  Hq.  ATC  (Ref.  O)  request- 
ing full  particulars  regarding  any  transportation  arrangements  made  with  the 
Soviets  and  the  names  of  persons  concluding  such  arrangements.  Details  of 
an  agreement  are  contained  in  1st  Indorsement  to  that  letter  (Ref.  P).  It 
states  that  3  flights  had  been  consummated,  namely  on  28  January,  15  February 
and  28  February,  none  of  which  were  previously  known  to  this  office  except  as 
indicated  in  paragraph  6  of  this  memorandum.  This  office  has  since  been  advised 
orally  by  ATC  that  baggage  on  these  flights  was  diplomatic  mail  and  the  exact 
amounts  were  3563  lbs.,  4180  lbs.,  and  37.17  lbs.,  respectively.  Major  Jordan  who 
represents  Air  Staff  at  the  ATC  station  at  Great  Falls  is  reported  to  have 
examined  one  of  the  packages  and  found  it  contained  blueprints  of  the  A-20 
plane,  railroad  guides  showing  long  and  short  haul  routes  and  other  technical 
data. 

Mr.  Nixon.  In  other  words,  the  purport  of  that  report  is  that  Major 
Jordan  reported  in  1944  that  he  had  examined  the  cargoes  of  the  planes 
at  least  containing  this  diplomatic  mail,  and  had  reported  to  his 
superiors  the  result  of  his  examination  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  what  it  states  here. 

Mr.  Moulder.  I  dispute  Mr.  Nixon's  statement  that  there  is  any 
issue  about  that.  As  I  recall  ISIajor  Jordan's  testimony,  he  testi- 
fied he  made  reports. 

Mr.  NixoN.  I  don't  question  that.  Immediately  after  that  hearing, 
the  statement  was  made  that  the  House  subconnnittee  had  examined 
the  charges — and  this  was  one  of  the  charges  Mr.  Jordan  made,  that  he 
had  made  the  reports — and  it  was  indicated  it  was  not  worthy  of 
belief.  I  wanted  to  bring  out  that  this  charge,  at  least,  is  supported  by 
that  memorandum. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  documents,  of  course,  will  speak  for  themselves. 

Mr.  Walter.  And  Major  Jordon's  testimony  bears  that  out,  of 
course. 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  the  document  will  be  admitted  in 
evidence. 

(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  5,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Case.  Have  you  made  any  attempts  to  identify  the  Brig.  Gen. 
B.  E.  Meyers  who  made  the  second  indorsement  on  the  request  I  ques- 
tioned you  about  previously  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.    I  identified  him. 

Mr.  Case.  Is  he  the  Benny  E.  Meyers  who  recently  figured  in  a  trial 
in  connection  with  his  activities  in  the  Air  Force  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  understand  it  is  the  same  officer. 


See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1125 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  thing  concerns  me  a  little  bit,  be- 
cause it  is  apparent  that  the  first  indorsement  after  this  request  was 
transferred  to  the  Chief  of  the  Air  Section,  Foreign  Liaison  Branch, 
stated  very  specifically : 

This  office  does  not  concur  in  the  proposal  to  transport  four  Soviet  personnel  and 
4,000  pounds  of  baggage  and  strongly  recommends  that  the  action  proposed  be 
not  taken. 

This  position  Avas  finally  reversed  after  this  second  indorsement  by 
Brig.  Gen.  B.  E.  Meyers,  or  Benny  Meyers,  who  says : 

It  is  also  called  to  your  atcntion  that  this  C-47  aircraft  will  be  one  of  their  own 
planes  from  Mai'ch  allocations  with  the  crew  provided  by  Air  Transport  Com- 
mand for  ferrying  the  aircraft  to  Fairbanks  where  it  will  be  taken  over  by 
U.  S.  S.  R.  pilots. 

Mr.  WAL'rER.  Is  that  indorsement  by  General  Meyers  or  by  some- 
body for  him  ? 

Mr.  Case.  The  indorsement  is : 

For  the  Commanding  General,  Army  Air  Forces :  B.  E.  Meyers,  Brig.  General, 
U.  S.  Army,  International  Officer  for  A.  A.  F.  By :  H.  R.  Paige,  Colonel,  Air 
Corps,  Chief,  International  Section,  Materiel  Div. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  Mr.  Appell,  in  the  memorandum  of  March  7,  1944, 
it  is  stated  that  Major  Jordon  is  reported  to  have  examined  one  of  the 
packages.  May  I  ask  you  what  effort  was  made  to  obtain  such  written 
report  or  statement  by  Major  Jordon  as  referred  to  in  the  memoran- 
dum of  March  7,  1944? 

Mr.  Appell.  On  the  2d  of  February  1950,  Maj.  Gen.  Lawrence  S. 
Kuter,  Commanding  General  of  the  Military  Air  Transport  Service, 
which  is  the  successor  agency  of  the  Air  Transport  Command,  was 
sent  a  copy  of  the  memorandum  of  March  7, 1944,  and  was  requested  to 
furnish  the  committee  with  photostatic  copies  of  all  correspondence 
and  memoranda  on  the  approval  by  the  Commanding  General  ATC  of 
the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission's  request  for  the  transportation  on 
a  special  mission  basis,  together  with  photostatic  copies  of  all  cor- 
respondence and  memoranda  on  the  report  of  Major  Jodan  mentioned 
in  paragraph  7  above. 

Mr.  Walter.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  just  looking  at  this  order,  "Appell 
Exhibit  4."  I  find  that  the  indorsement  by  General  Meyers,  by  Colonel 
Paige,  did  not  give  the  necessary  authorization,  but  that  the  third 
indorsement  did,  and  that  third  indorsement  is  by  Lt.  Col.  H.  A. 
Ken  yon. 

Mr.  Wood.  The  witness  so  testified. 

Mr.  Case.  If  I  may  point  out,  the  original  indorsement  was  by 
Colonel  Kenyon,  and  he  strongtly  recommended  against  the  proposal. 
It  was  after  the  second  indorsement,  by  General  Meyers,  requesting 
reconsideration,  that  Colonel  Kenyon  finally  approved  it. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  I  would  like  to  know  is  who  Colonel  Kenyon  is? 

Mr.  Case.  His  title  is  given  on  the  first  page.  It  is  Chief  of  the 
Air  Section,  Foreign  Liaison  Branch.  It  apparently  was  the  request 
for  reconsideration  from  General  Meyers  that  led  to  the  reversal  of  the 
first  position. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  ^-V^iat  explanation  was  given  by  the  Air  Transport 
Command  as  to  the  furnishing  of  these  special  air-transportation 
facilities  to  the  Soviet  Government,  to  which  you  have  just  referred? 

Mr.  Appell.  General  Kuter  replied  to  the  committee's  letter  that 


1126  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

none  of  the  correspondence  referred  to  in  the  committee's  letter  of 
February  2  could  be  found  in  the  files  of  Military  Air  Transport 
Service  in  Washington  or  the  Kansas  City  Record  Center.  However, 
documents  submitted  by  the  Department  of  the  Army  reflect  that  on 
March  4,  1944,  Lt.  Col.  Laigh  C.  Parker,  Acting  Assistant  Chief  of 
Staff,  Priorities  and  Traffic,  Air  Transport  Command,  advised  that 
on  January  28,  1943,  Col.  Sergi  Piskounov  and  others  of  the  Soviet 
Government  Purchasing  Commission  called  on  the  commanding  gen- 
eral of  the  Air  Transport  Command  and  requested  that  assistance 
be  given  the  purchasing  commission  in  transporting  certain  personnel 
and  material  from  Washington  to  Great  Falls,  Mont.  They  stated 
that  these  flights  would  probably  be  required  at  least  once  or  possibly 
twice  a  month  over  a  period  of  several  months,  each  flight  carrying 
approximately  3,800  pounds  of  cargo.  Colonel  Parker  further  ad- 
vised that  the  commanding  general,  ATC,  agreed  to  this  request. 

]Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  in  evidence  Colonel  Parker's  in- 
dorsement of  March  4,  1944,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Appell  ex- 
hibit 6." 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  let  it  be  admitted. 

(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  6,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  other  words,  Mr.  Appell,  the  Soviet  request  for 
additional  transportation  facilities  made  on  January  19,  which  had 
been  rejected  by  indorsement  on  January  24,  was  still  pending  in 
the  War  Department  when  the  Soviets  made  an  independent  request 
for  such  facilities  from  the  Air  Transport  Command  on  January  28, 
1944.     Is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes;  and  apparently  after  receiving  approval  from 
the  commanding  general.  Air  Transport  Command,  withdrew  their 
request  of  January  19,  which  they  had  filed  with  the  International 
Division  of  the  W^ar  Department  before  being  officially  notified  that 
this  request  was  denied. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Notwithstanding  the  agreement  by  the  command- 
ing general  of  the  Air  Transport  Command  to  furnish  additional 
transportation  facilities,  which,  in  fact,  were  furnished,  did  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission  make  an  additional  request  of  the  Interna- 
tional Section  of  the  War  Department  for  the  use  of  a  lend-lease  plane 
for  the  same  purpose  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  On  March  14,  1944,  Colonel  Piskounov,  of  the 
aviation  department  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  requested 
from  Col.  H.  R.  Paige,  Chief  of  the  International  Section  of  the  War 
Department,  that  one  C-47  airplane  allotted  to  them  on  the  April 
schedule  be  directed  from  the  Oklahoma  plant  to  the  New  York  Mu- 
nicipal Airport,  LaGuardia  Field,  on  March  25,  1944,  for  the  urgent 
delivery  of  approximately  4,000  pounds  of  cargo,  which  cargo  was  to 
be  under  the  supervision  of  Mr.  D.  V.  Murashenko,  who  would  also 
be  on  the  airplane. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  action  was  taken  on  this  request  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  On  March  17  the  Deputy  Chief  of  Staff  for  Ad- 
ministration, G-2,  recommended  that  permission  of  the  Soviet  request 
be  held  in  abeyance  for  the  present  and  that  the  entire  problem  be 
referred  to  the  United  States  Military  Mission  in  Moscow  for  a 

**  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1127 

determination  of  policy.  Thereafter  the  matter  was  taken  up  with 
the  State  Department,  which  replied  on  March  30,  1944,  that  in  view 
of  Ambassador  Harriman's  approval,  together  with  the  approval  of 
General  Deane,  head  of  the  military  mission  to  Moscow,  nothing  be 
done  to  suspend  arrangements  which  had  been  made  between  the 
Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  and  the  Air  Transport  Command. 
Following  this  advice  from  our  Embassy  in  Moscow,  regular  flights 
en  lend-lease  aircraft  of  diplomatic  cargo  were  instituted. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  tender  in  evidence  photostatic  copies  of  the  letter 
of  Colonel  Piskounov  bearing  date  of  March  14,  1944,  the  indorse- 
ment of  March  17,  1944,  the  State  Department  memorandum  of  March 
30,  1944,  and  the  paraphrase  of  the  telegram  from  the  American 
Embassy  in  Moscow  bearing  date  of  March  24,  1944,  and  ask  that 
they  be  marked  as  Appell  Exhibit  7. 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  see  the  exhibit? 

(The  proposed  exhibit  was  handed  to  Mr.  Case.) 

Mr.  Case.  Do  you  know  whether  the  General  Deane  mentioned  here 
was  our  chief  military  liaison  in  Moscow  at  this  time  who  has  since 
written  the  book  The  Strange  Alliance? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  understand  he  is  the  same  officer. 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  the  photostatic  copies  of  documents 
offered  by  counsel  will  be  admitted. 

(The  documents  above  referred  to,  marked  Appell  Exhibit  7,  are 
filed  herewith.)  ^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  am  going  to  ask  you  to  refer  back  for  a  moment 
to  Appell  Exhibit  G.  You  stated  in  your  testimony  that  Colonel 
Piskounov  and  others  conferred  with  the  commanding  general  of  the 
ATC  to  obtain  these  added  facilities  for  shipment  of  cargo,  when  a 
similar  request  to  the  War  Department  had  been  withdrawn.  Who 
were  the  other  persons  who  took  part  in  that  conference  between 
Colonel  Piskounov  and  the  conunanding  general  of  the  ATC  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Lieutenant  General  Rudenko  and  Mr.  E.  S.  Sergev. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  Can  you  identify  Lieutenant  General  Rudenko? 

Mr.  Appell.  Lieutenant  General  Rudenko  was  head  of  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission  in  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  additional  information  will  be  ob- 
tained relating  to  him  through  other  witnesses. 

Returning,  now,  to  this  plane  which  was  requested  by  Colonel 
Piskounov  in  his  letter  of  March  14,  1944,  do  the  records  show  the 
type  of  cargo  which  the  Russians  planned  to  ship  on  this  plane  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  On  March  15,  1944,  Colonel  Paige,  by  letter,  asked  the 
Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  the  use  they  intended  to  make  of  this 
aircraft,  and  on  March  20,  1944,  in  reply  to  his  letter,  Colonel 
Kramarenko  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  advised  Colonel 
Paige  that  the  plane  was  urgently  needed  to  deliver  drawings,  con- 
tracts, and  specifications  for  oil  refinery  plants  to  Moscow. 

Mr.  Wood.  What  kind  of  refinery  plants  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Oil. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  you  have  testified  from  the  G-2  memo 
of  March  7,  1944,  Appell  Exhibit  5,  that  a  report  was  made  on  Febru- 
ary 19, 1944,  by  Headquarters,  Army  Air  Forces,  ATC,  at  Great  Falls, 
regarding  the  arrival  and  departure  of  diplomatic  mail  at  Great  Falls, 


*"  See  appendix. 


1128  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

and  that  Major  Jordan  had  examined  one  of  the  packages  and  found  it 
contained  bkieprints  of  the  A-20  plane,  railroad  guides,  and  other 
technical  data.  Did  you  find  any  record  of  a  further  report  or  confer- 
ence in  which  Major  Jordan  made  reference  to  the  character  of  ship- 
ments he  saw  pass  through  Great  Falls  with  alleged  diplomatic 
immunity  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  There  is  a  memo  bearing  date  March  28,  1944^ 
made  by  a  special  agent,  CIC,  in  which  he  states  as  follows : 

On  13  March  1944,  while  in  the  performance  of  official  duties,  this  Agent  had 
occasion  to  contact  Major  George  R.  Jordan,  United  Nations  Representative  at 
East  Base,  Great  Falls,  Montana.  It  is  his  duty  to  act  as  liaison  man  between 
the  United  States  and  any  other  United  Nations'  representatives  at  East  Base. 
Due  to  the  nature  of  operations  at  East  Base,  his  activity  is  confined  for  the 
greater  part  to  dealing  with  the  U.  S.  S.  R.  Major  Jordan  stated  that  he  was 
desirous  of  conveying  certain  information  to  "Intelligence  Authorities." 
The  following  interesting  infoi'mation  was  supplied  by  Major  Jordan : 
The  Soviet  Union  has  made  a  practice  of  shipping  freight  to  Moscow  through 
the  Alaskan  Wing.  This  has  been  done  for  about  two  years.  For  the  year  1943, 
the  total  freight  shipped  through  Great  Falls  by  the  Russians  was  768,254.5 
pounds.  This  is  to  be  compared  with  433,112  pounds  that  was  shipped  to  Russia 
through  East  Base,  Great  Falls,  from  1  January  1944  to  5  March  1944. 

Mr.  Case,  Would  you  read  those  figures  again,  please  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  total  freight  shipped  through  Great  Falls  by  the 
Eussians  in  1943  was  768,254.5  pounds.  The  weight  of  the  freight 
shipped  between  January  1,  1944,  and  March  5,  1944,  was  433,112 
pounds. 

Mr.  Case.  That  is  a  comparison  of  2  months  and  5  days  in  1944 
against  the  total  year  1943? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  And  in  the  2  months  and  5  days  of  1944,  there  was  more 
than  half  as  much  shipped  as  in  the  entire  prior  year? 

Mr.  Appell.  We  intend  to  bring  in  further  that  the  total  weight 
shipped  in  1944  was  1,700,000  pounds,  roughly.  [Continuing  read- 
ing :] 

This  material  has  been  sent  by  members  of  the  Consular  Service,  Russian  Army 
Officers,  Russian  Engineers,  and  families  of  Russians  who  pass  through  here  and 
others.  The  freight  is  diversified  in  nature.  It  includes  American  publications — 
for  the  most  part  newspapers  and  magazines.  He  recalled  one  occasion  when 
the  Russians  shipped  detailed  data  regarding  American  shipping  rates  and  pro- 
cedure. Major  Jordan  questioned  this  and  was  told  by  the  Russians  that  the 
Russian  economic  structure  is  patterned  after  the  German  economic  system, 
.but  that  the  Soviet  Government  was  interested  in  changing  it  with  the  intention 
of  copying  the  American  economic  system.  Considerable  American  clothing  is 
included  in  the  freight.  He  added  that,  due  to  the  shortage  of  personnel,  the 
use  of  Russian-owned  and  operated  aircraft,  and  the  fact  that  a  great  deal  of 
the  freight  is  blanketed  by  diplomatic  immunity,  there  is  insufficient  control  over 
material  shipped  to  Russia  through  East  Base. 

There  is  an  incredible  amount  of  diplomatic  mail  sent  to  Russia  throusrh  Great 
Falls.  On  29  .January  1944,  on  aircraft  C-47  (2440),  3.568  pounds  of  mail  was 
shipped  to  Russia.  On  17  February  1944,  on  aircraft  C^7  (2579),  4,180  pounds 
of  mail  was  sent.  On  28  February  1944,  on  aircraft  C-47  (92764),  3,757  pounds 
of  mail  was  sent.  All  of  this  was  protected  from  censorship  by  diplomatic 
immunity.  It  may  be  significant  that  it  is  not  at  all  uncommon  for  the  Russian 
mail  or  freight  shipment  to  be  accompanied  by  two  men,  who  openly  state  that 
they  are  to  see  that  the  mail  or  freight  is  not  examined  and  the  diplomatic 
immunity  privilege  violated.  One  man  sleeps  while  the  other  watches  the  parcels 
and  vice  versa.  Major  Jordan  admitted,  without  reservation,  that  he  knew 
notliing  regarding  the  amount  of  mail  or  freight  that  a  foreign  country  normally 
sends  through  its  diplomatic  service,  but  it  is  thought  that  that  information 
can  be  readily  obtained. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1129 

INIany  high  ranking  Russian  Army  Officers,  Civilian  Representatives,  members 
of  tlie  Russian  Diplomatic  Service  and  their  families  pass  through  this  Base.  The 
United  States  Justice  Department  has  but  two  men  assigned  to  the  Great  Falls 
area  to  handle  all  matters  pertaining  to  customs  and  immigration  in  this  vicinity. 
One  of  the  men  works  during  the  day  and  the  other  at  night.  Anyone  who  passes 
through  this  Base,  other  than  those  in  the  Armed  Forces  of  the  United  States, 
must  go  through  customs.  Major  Jordan  has  seen  the  families  of  high  ranking 
Russian  Army  Officers  and  the  wife  of  former  Ambassador  Molitov  greatly  de- 
layed in  passage  merely  because  the  customs  officer  had  the  duties  of  two  or 
three  men.  This  point  is  made  because  it  is  believed  this  condition  is  not  con- 
ducive to  desired  feeling  between  the  United  States  and  the  Soviet  Union.  It  is 
suggested  that  this  issue  be  discussed  with  the  Justice  Department. 

This  Agent  observed  that  Major  Jordan  appeared  to  maintain  accurate,  de- 
tailed files  and  was  very  anxious  to  convey  his  information  through  intelligence 
channels.  He  requested  that  he  be  contacted  at  a  time  when  the  Russian  activity 
•could  be  outlined  in  minute  detail  and  was  advised  that  this  would  be  done  by 
GIG  Agent— 

and  here,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  will  not  name  the  Agent,  because  we  have 
been  requested  not  to  do  so  by  the  Army — 

who  is  currently  attached  to  the  Intelligence  and  Security  Office,  Station  5,  East 
Base,  Great  Falls,  Montana. 

It  is  recommended  that  a  prolonged  interview  be  conducted  with  Major  Jordan  ; 
that  his  records  be  scrutinized  for  information  of  an  intelligence  nature;  and 
that  he  be  contacted  regularly. 

It  is  further  recommended  that  the  facts  contained  herein  be  given  due  con- 
.sideration,  with  a  view  to  contacting  the  State  Deparment  in  order  that  they  be 
made  cognizant  of  the  situation  and  that  corrective  measures  be  taken. 

Mr.  Case.  What  is  the  date  of  that  memorandum  you  are  reading? 

Mr,  Appell.  March  28,  1944,  and  it  is  a  report  of  the  agent's  inter- 
view of  March  lo,  1944,  with  Major  Jordan. 

Mr.  Case.  So  in  March  1944  attention  was  drawn  to  these  things 
and  it  was  recommended  that  Major  Jordan  be  contacted  and  this  in- 
telligence be  further  developed  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  the  recommendation  of  this  special  agent. 

Mr,  Walter,  Tlie  principal  complaint  at  that  time  was  the  delay 
in  clearing  personnel  and  cargo  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes ;  and  that  there  was  not  sufficient  personnel  there 
to  make  customs  inspections. 

Mr.  Nixon,  xind  that  an  undue  amount  of  diplomatic  mail  was  go- 
ing through  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  was  Major  Jordan's  observation, 

Mr.  Wood,  The  document  speaks  for  itself, 

Mr,  Kearney.  I  understood  you  to  say  Major  Jordan  was  a  repre- 
sentative of  the  United  Nations  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  The  section  was  referred  to  as  the  United  Na- 
tions station  at  the  base. 

Mr.  Kearney.  In  addition  to  that,  he  had  an  official  title  in  the 
United  States  Army  Air  Force  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  The  section  at  the  base  that  handled  this  was 
known  as  the  United  Nations  Section.     It  was  given  that  name  by 

the  Army.  .  .  ,     , 

Mr.  Nixon.  Would  you  read  that  section  again  starting  with  the 

part  that  Major  Jordan  kept  accurate  detailed  files? 
Mr.  Appell.  Yes,    [Keading :] 

This  Agent  observed  that  Major  Jordan  appeared  to  maintain  accurate,  detailed 
files  and  was  very  anxious  to  convey  his  information  through  intelligence  chan- 
nels He  reouested  that  he  be  contacted  at  a  time  when  the  Russian  activity 
could  be  outlined  in  minute  detail  and  was  advised  that  this  would  be  done  by 


1130  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

CIC  Agent  — ,  who  is  currently  attached  to  the  Intelligence  and  Security 

Office,  Station  5,  East  Base,  Great  Falls,  Montana. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Velde.  Can  you  give  us  the  name  of  that  CIC  agent,  or  is  that 
secret  information  ? 

Mr.  Taytsnner.  Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  no  clearance  of  the 
names  of  the  agents  used  in  this  report,  and  for  that  reason  we  have 
read  it  in  evidence  but  have  not  introduced  the  document  in  evidence. 

Mr.  Wood.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  the  CIC  agent  in  the  report  which  you 
have  just  read  referred  to  a  request  which  he  received  from  Major 
Jordan  to  the  effect  that  he,  Jordan,  be  contacted  at  a  time  when  the 
Russian  activity  could  be  outlined  in  minute  detail.  Did  your  inves- 
tigation show  that  Major  Jordan  was  again  contacted  on  this  question  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  report  of  the  United  States  Air  Forces  reflects 
that  the  CIC  agent  assigned  to  the  Great  Falls  Air  Base  has  been 
interviewed  and  that  he  has  no  recollection  of  having  contacted  Major 
Jordan  or  of  having  received  any  instructions  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Ta\^nner.  Was  the  CIC  agent's  request  that  the  State  Depart- 
ment be  apprised  of  the  information  furnished  him  by  Major  Jordan 
complied  with  ? 

Mr.  NixoN.  Before  you  leave  the  first  point,  that  dealt  only  with 
the  CIC  at  Great  Falls:  Has  your  investigation  shown  that  any 
further  conversation  by  the  CIC  with  Major  Jordan  took  place,  in 
compliance  with  the  request  of  this  agent  that  a  prolonged  interview 
be  had  at  a  later  time  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  We  have  been  unable  to  find  any  reports  of  intelli- 
gence officers  of  the  Army  dealing  with  this  subject.  The  Air  Forces 
and  Army  have  gone  to  a  great  deal  of  time  and  trouble  to  cooperate 
with  the  committee,  and  have  really  gone  all  out  in  trying  to  produce 
documents,  but  since  the  separation  of  the  Air  Forces  from  the  Army, 
the  files  are  not  available. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Did  you  find  any  evidence  of  Major  Jordan  having 
personally  visited  any  of  the  departments  here  in  Washington  with 
reference  to  his  complaints? 

Mr.  Appell.  We  have  been  unable  to  find  any  documents  or  any 
information,  other  than  these  two  occasions,  of  Major  Jordan  making 
a  complaint  about  this  diplomatic  cargo,  and  complaints  of  that 
nature.  The  records  show  that  after  Major  Jordan  was  out  of  the 
service  he  went  to  the  State  Department,  and  in  the  memorandum 
there  he  reported  some  Russian  pilots  bringing  furs  into  the  United 
States  without  paying  duty.  But  we  have  been  unable  to  uncover 
any  records  or  reports  by  Major  Jordan  on  diplomatic  mail,  other 
than  the  two  we  have  referred  to. 

(Representative  Harrison  leaves  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  conference  with  the  State  Department  in  which 
he  mentioned  the  bringing  of  furs  into  this  country  by  Russian  pilots 
took  place,  I  believe,  after  his  separation  from  the  service? 

Mr..  Appell.  Yes.  I  thought  I  had  called  that  to  the  attention  of 
the  committee. 

Mr.  Wood.  He  did. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  beg  pardon.  Let  me  repeat  my  last  question: 
Was  the  CIC  agent's  request  that  the  State  Department  be  apprised 
of  the  information  furnished  him  by  Major  Jordan  complied  with? 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1131 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  On  office  memorandum  of  the  State  Department, 
dated  June  16,  1944,  over  the  signature  of  W.  H.  A.  Coleman,  ad- 
dressed to  Mr.  Lyon,  shows  that  on  that  day  Mr.  Bohlen  requested, 
and  there  was  furnished  to  him,  the  information  supplied  by  Major 
Jordan  under  date  of  March  13,  1944. 

(Representative  Harrison  returns  to  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Under  date  of  March  28,  1944? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  was  the  date  of  the  agent's  memorandum,  but 
the  information  was  given  by  Major  Jordan  on  the  13th. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  recommendation  was  made  by  Mr.  Coleman, 
if  any,  in  his  memorandum  of  June  16,  1944,  to  which  you  referred? 

Mr.  Appell.  Mr.  Coleman,  after  stating  it  was  evident  that  large 
quantities  of  nondiplomatic  freight,  property  of  private  individuals, 
was  being  transported  by  lend-lease  planes  with  diplomatic  immunity, 
recommended  that  this  irregularity  be  adjusted  withthe  Soviets,  either 
in  Washington  or  at  the  United  States  Embassy  in  Moscow,  by  sepa- 
rating the  legitimate  diplomatic  mail  under  seal  of  the  Soviet  Embassy, 
and  that  the  personal  freight  be  subject  to  search  and  export  permit, 
thereby  placing  both  countries  on  a  reciprocal  basis. 

Mr.  Moulder.  Who  made  that  recommendation  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Mr.  Coleman  of  the  State  Department. 

Hr.  Tavenner.  What  action  was  taken  by  the  State  Department? 

Mr,  Appell.  Charles  E.  Bohlen,  in  an  office  memorandum  dated 
June  24,  1944,  advised  Mr.  Lyon  that  a  meeting  should  be  called  of  all 
interested  Government  agencies  for  the  purpose  of  discussing  this 
subject. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  His  name  is  spelled  B-o-h-l-e-n  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  Is  that  the  man  commonly  referred  to  as  Chet  Bohlen  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  don't  know.  He  is  on  foreign  duty  in  Paris  at  this 
time.    Mr.  Coleman  is  deceased. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  whether  the  meeting  of  interested 
Government  agencies  was  actually  held  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  State  Department  records  indicate  that  a  meet- 
ing was  held  on  Thursday,  July  6,  1944,  in  a  general  conference  room 
of  the  State  Department. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  you  have  a  record,  I  believe,  of  the 
names  of  those  who  were  in  attendance  at  this  conference.  For  the 
sake  of  brevity  I  will  not  ask  you  to  read  the  names  of  those  present  at 
the  meeting,  but  will  you  state  which  agencies  of  the  Government  were 
represented  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation,  Office  of  Cen- 
sorship, Military  Intelligence,  Air  Transport  Command,  Immigra- 
tion and  Naturalization  Service,  Bureau  of  Customs,  Foreign  Eco- 
nomic Administration,  and  State  Department. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  were  you  able  to  obtain  a  copy  of  the 
minutes  of  this  meeting? 

Mr.  Appell.  No.  The  State  Department,  after  conducting  an  ex- 
haustive search,  w^as  unable  to  locate  any  minutes  or  memoranda  deal- 
ing with  this  meeting.  However,  the  documents  received  from  the 
Army  contain  a  memorandum  for  the  records,  dated  July  6,  1944,  by 
Col.  L.  R.  Forney,  who  attended  the  meeting  as  a  representative  of 
Military  Intelligence. 


1132  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  a  photostatic  copy  of  the  memo- 
randum dated  July  6,  1944,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Appell  ex- 
hibit 8." 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection,  let  it  be  admitted. 

(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  8,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Wood.  If  members  of  the  committee  so  desire,  let  it  be  read 
into  the  record. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  was  my  next  question.  Mr.  Appell,  will  you 
read  Colonel  Forney's  memorandum,  but  I  suggest  you  omit  any  refer- 
ence to  the  names  of  individuals  attending  the  meeting. 

Mr.  Appell  (reading)  : 

All  interested  Government  agencies  were  represented. 

It  developed  that  there  was  concern  on  the  part  of  the  Department  of  State 
regarding  an  alleged  uncontrolled  passage  of  personnel  and  baggage  on  Russian 
planes  and  on  ATO  planes  along  the  route  indicated.  In  the  actual  discussion 
it  developed  that  such  agencies  as  State,  Customs,  and  Immigration  assumed, 
without  justification,  that  it  was  the  responsibility  of  the  Army  to  take  care  of 
such  matters.  It  was  pointed  out  that  such  was  not  the  case  and  that  the  Army 
had  no  authority  or  responsibility  to  control  nonmilitary  travel  or  to  control  the 
passage  of  diplomatic  and  nondiplomatic  baggage  over  the  route  except  in  so  far 
as  was  essential  in  connection  with  flight  safety. 

The  fundamental  position  of  the  War  Department  was  pointed  out  to  be  as 
follows :  It  is  undesirable  at  this  time  that  there  be  any  interference  with  the 
movements  of  strictly  Russian  military  personnel  in  the  interests  of  reciprocity 
we  desire  from  the  Russians  in  facilitating  our  military  operations  from  air  bases 
in  Russia ;  that  the  Army  had  no  objection  whatever  to  the  proper  government 
agencies  applying  the  required  legal  controls  over  diplomatic  and  nonmilitary 
travel  and  baggage.  It  was  pointed  out,  however,  that  the  Army  would  not  con- 
sent to  become  the  agent  of  other  government  agencies  in  these  matters. 

It  also  developed  that  the  principal  interested  agencies  such  as  Customs,  Immi- 
gration, State,  and  Censorship  had  no  idea  of  what  was  going  on  at  the  two 
places  mentioned  in  so  far  as  their  responsibilities  were  concerned.  They  agreed 
to  take  steps  to  inform  themselves  and  then,  if  necessary,  consult  other  agencies 
involved. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  Mr.  Bohlen  at  a  later  date  make  any  recom- 
mendation as  to  the  situation  at  Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Appell.  Mr.  Bohlen,  in  a  memorandum  dated  June  29,  1944, 
summed  up  the  Great  Falls  situation  by  recommending  that  the 
State  Department  informall}^  take  up  with  the  Soviet  Embassy  the 
matter  of  Soviet  couriers  protecting  from  examination  packages  and 
freight  in  addition  to  properly  marked  diplomatic  packages. 

Mr.  Case.  May  I  have  that  date  again  ? 

Mr.  Appell,  June  29,  1944.    This  was  before  the  meeting. 

Mr.  Case.  But  it  was  after  the  date  of  the  figures  you  have  given 
us  of  the  amount  of  mail  going  through  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  The  date  you  gave  us  before  was  a  March  5  date  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr,  Case.  When  some  400,000  pounds  had  already  gone  through 
that  year  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  This  deals  with  the  so-called  diplomatic  cargo.  The 
big  bulk  of  the  400,000  pounds  was  aircraft  parts  and  such. 

Mr.  Case.  Up  until  the  June  memorandum  from  Mr.  Bohlen  there 
was  no  attemiDt  apparently  to  have  any  understanding  with  the  Rus- 

«  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1133 

si  an  Embassy  about  inspection  of  this  material  that  went  through 
Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Appell.  We  will  go  into  that. 

Mr.  Wood.  That  would  be  a  conclusion,  anyway. 

Mr.  Case.  That  seems  to  be  my  conclusion,  anyway. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  the  records  of  the  State  Department  indicate 
that  this  matter  was  taken  up  with  the  Soviet  Embassy,  as  recom- 
mended in  Mr.  Bohlen's  memorandum? 

Mr.  Appell,  The  next  document  dealing  with  this  subject  is  dated 
July  28,  and  it  is  a  follow-up  on  a  conversation  held  with  the  second 
secretary  of  the  Soviet  Embassy.  It  is  an  informal  memorandum 
of  customs  and  censorship  regulations  regarding  diplomatic  and  of- 
ficial mail  entering  or  leaving  the  United  States.  It  was  forwarded 
to  the  second  secretary,  and  with  the  memorandum  the  second  secre- 
tary of  the  Soviet  Embassy  was  advised  that  these  regulations  were 
to  be  strictly  enforced  in  the  future. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  briefly  summarize  the  regulations  referred 
to? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  memorandum  of  regulations  in  effect  notified  the 
Soviet  Embassy  that  pouches  for  communications  addressed  to  con- 
sulates or  other  Soviet  government  agencies  are  not  exempt  from 
customs  examination,  but  that  any  official  mail  in  such  pouches,  that  is, 
mail  from  a  Soviet  government  agency  in  the  Soviet  Union  or  abroad 
to  a  Soviet  government  agency  in  the  United  States,  or  vice  versa,  will 
as  a  matter  of  courtesy  not  be  examined  or  censored.  It  was  also 
pointed  out  that  any  communications  or  packages  in  charge  of  a 
courier,  w^hich  were  not  sealed  and  clearly  marked  as  coming  ii-om  the 
Embassy  to  the  People's  Commissariat  for  Foreign  Affairs,  or  vice 
versa,  are  not  exempt  from  customs  examination,  and  that  any  non- 
diplomatic  packages  leaving  the  United  States  should  be  accompanied 
by  proper  export  permit  obtained  from  the  Foreign  Economic  Ad- 
ministration. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  your  investigation  disclose  that  the  Soviet 
Embassy  complied  with  these  regulations  after  this  advice  from  the 
State  Department  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  only  document  w^hich  relates  to  this  is  a  report  of 
an  intelligence  and  security  officer  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  dated  Septem- 
ber 21,  1944,  subject,  Shipment  of  Uncensored  Communications  which 
reads  as  follows : 

Aircraft  number  8643  type  C-47  departed  this  station  20  September  1944  des- 
tined for  Russia  carrying  one  passenger  of  Russian  nationality  and  3,800  pounds 
of  cargo  consisting  of  communications  that  had  not  been  censored  and  were  not 
immune  of  censorship  by  being  diplomatic  in  nature. 

Customs  inspector  checking  tlie  cargo  said  it  consisted  of  records  of  the  Soviet 
Purchasing  Commission  and  other  service  mail,  unsealed  and  written  in  Rus- 
sian as  well  as  in  English.  He  failed  however  to  have  them  removed  and  sent 
to  the  Office  of  Censorship.  Whether  any  communications  neding  a  license  fur 
export  were  aboard  was  not  ascertained  by  this  officer. 

The  implication  here  is  that  anything  going  to  Russia  on  aircraft  sold  to  the 
Soviet  Union  is  immune  to  censorship  and  of  a  diplomatic  natiu-e.  This  is 
completely  incorrect.  The  removal  of  communications  from  the  United  States 
prior  to  Censorship  is  a  violation  of  the  Espionage  Act  and  the  rules  of  the 
Office  of  Censorship. 

This  office  makes  positive  that  Custom  Officials  see  all  out-bound  aircraft  by 
not  clearing  the  American  crew  that  fly  it  without  abiding  by  AAF  Regulation 
4G-2.    That  is  our  limitation. 


1134  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Moulder.  Who  made  that  report? 

Mr.  AppELL.  A  captain  of  the  Air  Corps  who  was  an  intelligence 
and  security  officer,  with  the  specific  designation  of  travel  control 
officer. 

Mr.  Moulder.  To  whom  was  it  directed  ? 

(Kepresentative  Case  leaves  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  AppELL.  It  was  directed  through  through  channels  to  the  As- 
sistant Chief  of  Staff,  G-2,  War  Department,  Washington  25,  D.  C. 
Attention :  Chief,  CIG. 

This  document  contains  a  fifth  indorsement. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Would  you  read  that,  please?  I  believe  that  in- 
dorsement deals  with  the  question  of  whether  or  not  the  shipment 
of  materials  in  this  manner  is  in  violation  of  the  Espionage  Act. 

Mr.  Appell.  This  indorsement  is  by  the  Acting  Adjutant  General 
of  the  United  States  Army,  Robert  H.  Dunlap,  and  is  as  follows : 

The  action  being  taken  by  Army  Air  Forces,  as  indicated  by  paragraph  4  of 
the  basic  communication,  is  correct  and  constitutes  the  full  discharge  of  all 
responsibilities  of  the  War  Department  in  this  connection.  The  security  aspects 
of  this  matter  have  been  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  Department  of  State,  the 
Customs  Service,  Immigration  Service,  Office  of  Censorship,  and  the  Department 
of  Justice.  Beyond  tliat,  the  War  Department  has  no  autliority  to  act.  The 
agencies  mentioned  have  had  this  matter  under  study  and  investigation  for 
some  time  and  their  inquiries  continue.  While  tliey  have  arrived  at  no  final 
conclusions  in  the  matter,  it  is  indicated  that  the  results  will  be  a  more  compre- 
hensive enforcement  of  existing  laws  and  regulations  than  heretofore  has  been 
t)ie  case. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  it  has  come  to  the  attention  of  the  staff 
that  Major  Jordan  has  made  a  public  statement  relating  to  the  removal 
by  him  of  radar  equipment  on  a  lend-lease  plane  being  flown  through 
Great  Falls  to  the  Soviet  Union.  In  the  course  of  your  investigation, 
did  you  learn  anything  about  this  or  other  similar  incidents? 

Mr.  Appell.  It  appears  that  in  December  194:2,  Lend-Lease  aircraft 
P-39's,  B-25C's,  and  C-47's  arrived  at  Great  Falls  with  receiver  por- 
tions of  radar  equipment,  and  that  permission  was  granted  by  the 
Chief  of  the  United  Nations  Branch,  Dayton,  Ohio,  to  remove  such 
equipment  from  the  aircraft  at  Great  Falls,  or  from  any  future  air- 
craft arrivals. 

(Representative  Nixon  leaves  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Appell  (continuing).  While  this  was  prior  to  Major  Jordan's 
assignment  at  the  Great  Falls  base,  it  appears  from  an  interview  with 
former  Lt.  Col.  Charles  H.  Gitzinger  and  confirmed  by  the  Chief  of 
the  United  Nations  Section,  Dayton,  Ohio,  that  Major  Jordan  advised 
Gitzinger  that  a  plane  believed  by  Jordan  to  be  bearing  radar  equip- 
ment had  arrived  at  Great  Falls,  and  that  Gitzinger  ordered  Jordan 
to  remove  this  radar  from  the  aircraft.  These  are  the  only  incidents 
uncovered  in  the  investigation. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  the  interview  with  Gitzinger  disclose  that  he 
had  almost  daily  contact  by  telephone  with  Major  Jordan? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  Lieutenant  Colonel  Gitzinger  was  Chief  of  the 
Russian  Unit  of  the  United  Nations  Branch,  Army  Air  Forces,  sta- 
tioned at  Wright  Field,  Dayton,  Ohio.  As  Chief  of  the  Russian 
Unit,  Colonel  Gitzinger  was  Jordan's  higher  authority  on  any  prob- 
lems relating  to  Russian  lend-lease.  For  this  reason,  Major  Jordan 
was  in  almost  daily  contact  with  Colonel  Gitzinger  over  problems  that 
arose  in  Great  Falls. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1135 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  Colonel  Gitzinger,  in  his  interview,  make  any 
statement  with  regard  to  the  receipt  of  information  from  Major  Jor- 
dan relating  to  classified  materials  passing  through  Great  Falls  in  an 
irregular  or  improper  manner? 

Mr.  Appell.  Colonel  Gitzinger  advised  that  in  addition  to  his  al- 
most daily  contact  with  Major  Jordan,  he  also  met  Jordan  at  Wright 
Field  in  1943  and  1944,  and  that  to  the  best  of  his  recollection  at  no 
time  was  mention  made  by  Jordan  of  any  alleged  shipments  by  the 
Eussians  of  classified  material  through  Great  Falls,  and  specifi- 
cally  

( Representative  Nixon  returns  to  hearing  room. ) 

Mr.  Appell  (continuing).  Jordan  mentioned  nothing  of  uranium, 
neutrons,  protons,  or  anything  connected  with  the  atom  bomb  pro- 
gram as  we  know  it  today. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  Major  Jordan,  in  his  testimony  before 
the  committee,  stated  that  on  January  8,  1944,  he  went  to  Washington 
and  called  upon  Colonel  Paige,  who  was  Chief  of  the  International 
Section,  War  Department.  He  also  called  upon  the  Inspector  Gen- 
eral's Office  of  the  War  Department,  and  upon  Mr.  John  Hazard  of  the 
State  Department.  Has  your  investigation  verified  Major  Jordan's 
trip  to  Washington  in  January  of  1944  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  There  is  no  record  in  the  files  of  the  Army  or  Air 
Forces  which  reflects  on  the  visit  to  either  the  International  Section 
of  the  Army  or  the  Inspector  General's  Office. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  did  your  investigation  disclose  that 
Major  Jordan  made  a  call  upon  John  Hazard,  who  was  an  official  of 
the  Foreign  Economic  Administration? 

Mr.  Appell.  No.  Mr.  Hazard  has  advised  the  committee  that  at 
no  time  during  his  employment  with  the  Office  of  Lend-Lease,  or  later 
its  successor,  the  Foreign  Economic  Administration,  did  he  see  or  have 
any  conversation  with  or  with  regard  to  Major  Jordan. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  go  back  and  clear  up  a 
point,  because  I  stepped  out  a  minute. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Nixon. 

Mr.  Nixon.  When  I  came  into  the  room  you  were  referring  to  Major 
Jordan  mentioning  nothing  regarding  neutrons  and  uranium  to  the 
officer  at  Dayton ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  to  Colonel  Gitzinger. 

Mr.  NixoN.  Colonel  Gitzinger's  interview  related  to  what  period  of 
time? 

Mr.  Appell.  During  the  entire  period  Major  Jordan  was  at  Great 
Falls,  1943  and  1944. 

Mr.  Nixon.  In  other  words.  Major  Jordan,  during  the  period  1943 
and  1944,  did  not  mention  this  specific  type  of  freight  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Colonel  Gitzinger's  statement  Avas  that  he  had  no 
recollection  of  such  mention. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  was  before,  in  point  of  time,  the  first  atomic 
explosion  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  NisoN.  It  was  before  we  generally  knew  the  significance  of 
these  materials? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.    Major  Jordan  left  Great  Falls  in  May  1944. 

Mr.  NixoN.  This  conversation  to  which  you  referred  took  place  be- 
fore Mav  1944? 


1136  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  rig^ht. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Before  the  first  atomic  bomb  was  exploded? 

Mr.  Appell.,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Walter.  "What  was  Colonel  Gitzinger's  position  at  Dayton? 

Mr.  Appell.  He  was  in  charge  of  the  Kussian  Unit  of  the  United 
Nations  Branch  in  Dayton,  Ohio. 

Mr.  Walter.  And  I  understand  Major  Jordan  had  a  similar  posi- 
tion at  Great  Falls  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Major  Jordan  was  the  United  Nations  representative 
at  that  base.  Colonel  Gitzinger,  while  I  am  not  too  clear  on  this  and 
Major  Jordan  would  know  it  in  more  detail,  was  a  higher  authority 
than  Jordan.  If  a  plane  would  come  through  not  carrying  proper 
equipment,  Major  Jordan  would  call  Colonel  Gitzinger  and  say, 
"These  planes  are  coming  in  and  don't  have  proper  equipment." 

Mr.  Walter.  In  other  words,  Colonel  Gitzinger  was  not  the  com- 
manding officer  over  Major  Jordan? 

Mr.  Appell.  Oh,  no. 

Mr.  Walter.  There  was  no  duty  on  the  part  of  Major  Jordan  to  re- 
port unusual  shipments  to  Colonel  Gitzinger? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Kearney.  As  an  American  officer.  Major  Jordan  would  not 
be  under  a  Russian  officer? 

Mr.  Appell.  Colonel  Gitzinger  was  an  American  officer.  This  is 
confusing  because  they  refer  to  the  unit  he  was  in  charge  of  as  the 
Russian  Unit  of  the  United  Nations'  Branch. 

Mr.  Kearney.  In  other  words,  in  no  instance  was  Major  Jordan 
under  the  control  of  any  Russian  officer? 

Mr.  Appell.  Oh,  no,  sir.  Those  officers  with  whom  he  had  dealings 
were  American  officers. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  Had  you  completed  your  answer? 

Mr.  Apiell.  I  was  dealing  with  Mr.  Hazard's  advice  to  the  com- 
mittee that  he  had  never  met,  seen,  or  had  any  discussion  with  or  with 
regard  to  Major  Jordan,  My  investigation  did  disclose,  however,  that 
Major  Jordan  made  a  call  on  the  Foreign  Economic  Administration 
and  did  talk  with  one  of  their  liaison  people,  although  the  records  of 
Lend-L?ase  and  Foreign  Economic  Administration  contained  no 
memorandum  on  Major  Jordan's  visit. 

Mr.  Tavlnner.  Were  you  able  to  substantiate  any  of  Major  Jordan's 
testimony  with  respect  to  the  diagrams  relating  to  the  Oak  Ridge 
project  and  the  note  on  White  House  stationery  initialed  "H.  H.'^ 
which  was  the  subject  of  his  testimony. 

Mr.  Appell.  No  documents  supplied  by  the  Army,  Air  Force,  or 
State  Department  contained  any  reference  to  the  material  described 
by  Jordan.  We  have  been  unable  to  find  that  the  name  "Harry  Hop- 
kins" was  engraved  on  White  House  letterheads  by  the  Government 
Printing  Office.  We  have  checked  many  memoranda  and  correspond- 
ence of  Harry  Hopkins,  and  up  until  today  we  had  found  nothing 
signed  "H.  H.,"  all  being  signed  "Harry  L.  Hopkins"  and  "H.  L.  H." 
I  have  been  told  since  sitting  here  that  in  the  Saturday  Evening  Post 
articles  dealing  with  Harry  Hopkins  there  is  a  memorandum  signed 
"H,  H.,"  but  I  have  not  seen  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  the  staff  investigate  numerous  documents  to  en- 
deavor to  determine  if  there  was  any  set  practice  in  signing? 


I 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1137 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  we  did,  and  we  also  requested  permission  to  review 
the  tiles  of  the  President's  Protocol  Commission,  now  in  the  custody 
of  the  archives  in  the  Department  of  State.  We  were  not  given  per- 
mission to  do  so. 

Mr.  Tavenxer.  There  was  also  testimony  by  Major  Jordan  relating 
to  copies  of  State  Department  documents  that  were  found  in  one  of  the 
suitcases.     Has  any  investigation  been  made  regarding  that!' 

Mr.  Appell.  Until  such  time  as  the  committee  can  determine  the 
subject  matter  and  contents  of  these  documents,  there  is  no  way  I 
know  of  that  an  investigation  is  possible. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Or  until  the  committee  has  some  information  as  to 
the  source  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  true.  According  to  the  testimony  of  Major 
Jordan,  he  was  the  only  one  wdio  saw  those  documents. 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  the  State  Department  give  you  any  reason  for  its 
refusal  to  permit  you  to  examine  the  files  regarding  Harry  Hopkins  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  It  was  not  files  regarding  Harry  Hopkins,  but  files 
of  the  President's  Protocol  Commission,  dealing  with  our  relationship 
with  other  governments,  and  based  on  that  they  did  not  feel  that  any- 
one outside  the  State  Department  should  go  through  that  type  of 
files.  Many  of  the  documents  are  highly  secret,  and  that  was  the  rea- 
son. The  State  Department  did  search  for  us,  files  of  the  Foreign 
Economic  Administration,  and  have  been  very  helpful  and  coopera- 
tive with  us  in  regard  to  other  materials,  including  supplying  the 
committee  with  documents  dealing  with  translations,  as  far  as  the 
State  Department  is  concerned,  of  the  shipment  of  diplomatic  cargo. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  the  absence  of  any  information  on  the  character 
of  the  documents  referred  to  by  Major  Jordan  in  his  testimony,  was 
any  request  made  of  the  State  Department  for  any  documents  that 
would  throw  any  light  on  this  subject? 

Mr.  Appell.  No.  We  had  no  way  of  knowing  where  to  ask  the  State 
Department  to  search. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  investigate  the  question  of  whether  it  has 
been  the  practice  in  the  past  to  print  the  name  of  anyone  on  White 
House  stationery  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  testified  that  the  Government  Printing  Office  has  no 
record  of  printing  the  name  of  anyone  on  AVliite  House  stationery. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Do  they  print  all  the  White  House  stationery? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  understand  they  do. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Do  they  have  complete  records  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  They  had  the  plates  and  they  went  back  over  the 
plates.  They  did  bring  this  up,  that  it  has  been  known  that  people 
have  taken  the  stationery,  after  it  was  engraved  at  the  Government 
Printing  Office,  to  a  private  engraver  and  had  a  name  put  on  it. 

Mr.  Nixon.  That  was  the  practice? 

Mr.  Appell.  No  ;  but  they  did  know  it  occurred. 

Mr.  Nixon.  So  it  is  possible  that  it  did  occur  in  this  instance;  not 
that  it  is  probable,  but  it  is  possible  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  We  have  examined  many,  many  pieces  of  Hopkins' 
memoranda  on  "White  House  stationery,  and  on  none  of  these  did  we 
see  his  name  printed. 

Mr.  Harrison.  Did  you  do  it  in  the  period  in  question  ? 


99334—50 16 


1138  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  contacted  former  officers  of  the  Gov- 
ernment with  whom  Harry  Hopkins  had  correspondence,  and  we  have 
looked  at  these  memoranda,  and  none  of  these  contain  his  name  printed 
on  them.  In  this  examination  we  never  found  any  signed  with  the 
initials  "H.  H."  We  found  "H.  L.  H.,"  "Harry,"  and  "Harry  L.  Hop- 
kins" but  none  "H.  H." 

It  was  called  to  my  attention  this  morning  that  an  "H.  H."  memo- 
randum is  published  in  the  Saturday  Evening  Post.  It  is  here  if  you 
want  to  see  it.    I  haven't  seen  it. 

(At  this  point,  the  witness  examines  the  article  to  which  he  referred 
in  the  Saturday  Evening  Post,  whereupon  he  continues:)  My  testi- 
mony on  this  is  in  error.  This  is  a  memorandum  by  former  President 
Koosevelt  which  is  headed  "H.  H.,"  but  it  is  not  a  memorandum  of  Mr. 
Hopkins'  signed  "H.  H." 

Mr.  Moulder.  President  Eoosevelt  addressed  him  as  "H.  H."? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.    This  memorandum  is  initialed  "F.  D.  R." 

Mr.  Harrison.  There  is  one  signed  "H.  L.  H." 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.    I  have  seen  many  documents  signed  that  way. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  did  you  proceed  to  Great  Falls,  Mont., 
for  the  purpose  of  investigating  the  shipments  of  uranium  and  heavy 
water  through  Great  Falls  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  I  did,  prior  to  the  receipt  by  the  committee  of 
Air  Force  documentation  on  these  shipments. 

Mr.  TA^^NNER.  Will  you  briefly  summarize  your  investigation  at 
Great  Falls? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  majority  of  the  information  obtained  from  my 
investigation  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  dealt  with  the  shipments  of 
uranium  and  heavy  water.  It  was  on  this  investigation  that  the 
committee  obtained  the  documentation  on  the  Canadian  shipment  in 
June  of  1943. 

Since  the  committee  has  previously  held  a  hearing  and  put  into  the 
record,  through  Investigator  Owens,  the  complete  documentation  on 
these  shipments,  with  the  permission  of  the  chairman  I  will  not  go 
into  a  repetition  of  those  shipments  at  this  time. 

While  at  Great  Falls  I  interviewed  over  20  former  employees  of  the 
subdepot  of  which  the  United  Nations  Branch  was  a  part.  Only  three 
of  those  employees  had  any  knowledge  of  other  things,  other  than  the 
shipment  of  uranium.    I  would  like  to  go  into  that. 

Leonard  E.  Woods,  who,  from  November  1942  through  1946,  was  a 
civilian  employee  of  the  Thirty-fourth  Subdepot  and  assigned  to  the 
United  Nations  Branch,  was  interviewed.  Woods  advised  that  while 
he  was  in  charge  of  loading  Russian  cargo  and  supplies  on  lend-lease 
aircraft,  he  had  no  occasion  to  examine  the  contents  of  the  boxes  or 
parcels  being  loaded.  He  did  recall  loading,  from  time  to  time,  many 
cartons  labeled  as  containing  magazines,  drawings,  newspapers,  and 
technical  publications.  On  one  occasion,  in  the  summer  of  1944,  he  was 
aboard  a  lend-lease  aircraft  which  contained  diplomatic  bags,  pouches, 
when  the  United  States  customs  official  came  aboard  and  proceeded  to 
open  some  of  the  unsealed  pouches.  Woods  made  an  examination  of 
the  contents  of  the  pouches  with  the  customs  official,  and  observed  that 
one  of  the  pouches  contained  what  he  reports  in  a  sworn  statement 
to  be  the  complete  plans  of  the  General  Electric  plant  at  East  Lynn, 
Mass.,  and  another  pouch  contained  plans  of  an  electric  boat,  marked 
as  being  a  boat  manufactured  by  works  in  Groton,  Conn. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1139 

Mr.  Taatenxer.  Do  you  have  the  affidavit  ? 
Mr.  AprELL.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  desire  to  offer  the  affidavit  of  Leonard  E.  Woods 
in  evidence,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  9." 

Mr.  Nixon.  What  is  the  name  of  the  person  who  made  the  affidavit  ? 
Mr.  Appell.  Leonard  E.  Woods. 
Mr.  Nixon.  Did  he  work  under  Jordan  ? 
Mr.  Appell.  He  was  a  civilian  employee. 
Mr.  Nixon.  Working  at  the  same  time  as  Jordan  ? 
Mr.  Appell.  Yes ;  under  Jordan's  section. 
Mr.  Nixon.  No  objection. 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection  let  it  be  admitted. 
(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  9,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  ^^ 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  Do  you  also  have  an  affidavit  given  to  you  by 
George  J.  Mortenson  ? 
Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  I  desire  to  offer  that  affidavit  in  evidence,  and  ask 
that  it  be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  10." 

Mr.  Wood.  Without  objection  it  will  be  admitted. 
(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  10,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  ^' 

Mr.  Appell.  Mr.  Mortenson,  in  his  affidavit,  states  that  he  was  em- 
ployed at  Great  Falls  during  the  years  19-1:3  and  1944  as  a  civilian 
inspector  of  aircraft  supplies.  Mr.  Mortenson  recalls  that  on  one 
occasion  it  was  necessary  for  him  to  enter  a  C-47  plane  which  had  been 
routed  from  Oklahoma  City  to  Washington,  D.  C.,  where  it  picked  up 
Russian  personnel  and  cargo ;  that  he  was  refused  admittance  to  the 
plane  and  was  only  able  to  secure  the  necessary  forms  from  the  pilot ; 
and  that  this  plane  remained  at  the  base  under  constant  guard,  night 
and  day. 

Mr.  Mortenson  also  recalled  the  arrival  at  Great  Falls  of  B-25 
type  aircraft  which  contained  Norden  bomb  sights.  While  these  bomb 
sights  were  taken  off  at  Great  Falls,  one  bomb  sight  slipped  through 
to  Canada,  where  it  was  removed  and  returned  by  special  plane  to 
Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  your  investigation  disclose  whether  the  Norden 
bomb  sight  was  ever  sent  through  in  quantity  to  the  Russians. 

Mr.  Appell.  No  ;  it  was  not.  The  Norden  bomb  sight  was  not  being 
sent  to  the  Russians.  The  factory  would  prepare  a  plane  for  delivery 
to  our  people.  En  route  from  the  plant  the  plane  accidentally  would 
be  routed  into  the  B-25's  going  to  Russia  under  lend-lease.  It  would 
indicate  some  mistake. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Through  mistake  or  otherwise,  some  Norden  bomb 
sights  got  to  Russia  ? 

Mr.  Appell,  I  remember  a  plane  crashing  with  one  on  it,  bu^  I 
don't  know  of  any  going  through  in  this  channel. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  also  interview  Capt.  Harry  Decker? 
Mr.  Appell.  Yes.    Capt.  Harry  Decker  was  the  traffic  control  officer 
at  Great  Falls.     I  have  a  notarized  statement  from  Captain  Decker 
which  I  would  like  to  read  in  its  entirety. 


*"  See  appendix. 
*3  See  appendix. 


1140  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Wood.  Is  that  sworn  to  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes ;  it  is.     It  reads  as  follows : 

The  duties  of  the  Intelligence  and  Security  Travel  Control  Unit  which  I  headed 
acted  as  liaison  between  the  Civilian  Agencies  of  the  Government  such  as  Cus- 
toms, Immigration,  FBI,  and  the  Armed  Forces  of  our  Government,  and  our 
Allies. 

In  a  short  resume  of  the  unit's  duties,  it  was  our  responsibility  to  see  that  all 
aircraft,  cargo  and  i)ersonneI  destined  for  overseas  shipment  had  proper  clear- 
ance of  these  civilian  agencies,  and  that  all  incoming  aircraft  and  personnel  also 
were  routed  to  these  agencies. 

My  unit  consisted  wholly  of  U.  S.  Military  personnel,  and  consequently  the 
civilian  agencies  had  to  do  the  checking  of  incoming  and  outgoing  personnel  of 
our  Allies. 

Before  the  arrival  of  our  unit  to  Great  Falls  in  July  of  1944,  the  arrival  and 
departure  of  aircraft  was  very  poorly  supervised,  allowing  cargo  and  personnel 
to  leave  and  enter  almost  at  will  without  proper  cle;irance  of  the  Government 
agencies.  This  poor  supervision  was  caused  by  the  lack  of  properly  trained 
Military  personnel.  I  would  be  relatively  safe  in  saying  that  upon  our  arrival 
and  setting  up  operations,  that  no  aircraft  was  allowed  to  enter  or  leave  without 
proper  clearance. 

The  failure  of  compliance  of  our  laws  then  rested  in  the  hands  of  the  civilian 
agencies.  The  matter  that  some  of  the  cargoes  lacked  proper  clearance  was  dis- 
cussed by  myself  and  the  local  Customs  people  many  times.  I  requested  that  the 
Commissioner  of  U.  S.  Customs  come  to  Great  Falls  and  investigate  these  ship- 
ments. At  a  meeting  held  by  the  Commissioner  (a  Mr.  Johnson  of  "Washington, 
D.  C.)  and  the  local  Customs  people  and  myself  I  personally  requested  that  all 
shipments  not  carrying  proper  clearance  be  held  at  Great  Falls  until  complied 
with.  This  request  was  carried  to  higher  quarters  in  the  Treasury  Department 
but  no  action  taken  to  my  knowledge.  A  Mr.  Weiss  of  the  Department  of  Com- 
merce also  came  to  Great  Falls  on  the  same  matter  and  the  same  request  was 
made  of  him.  His  answer  was  that  it  was  a  high  echelon  decision  of  the  State 
Department,  Board  of  Economic  Warfare  and  the  President's  Committee  of 
Protocol. 

The  cooperation  of  the  agencies  of  local  level  was  very  good.  It  seemed  that 
the  power  of  enforcement  lay  at  very  high  levels  beyond  the  reach  of  us  there. 
The  local  Customs  men  inspected  all  cargoes  including  those  of  diplomatic  nature,- 
but  inspected  all  except  those  carrying  the  Official  Russian  Diplomatic  Seal. 

When  interviewed  before  affidavit  was  given,  Mr.  Chairman,  Cap- 
tain Decker  told  us  of  some  Russians  coming  into  the* United  States 
having  in  their  possession  maps  of  the  east -coast  defense  zone  in  the 
United  States.  In  requesting  this  affidavit  I  asked  him  to  go  into 
that,  and  this  is  what  he  said : 

The  maps  in  question  were  carried  by  arriving  Russian  Aviators  who  were  on 
their  way  to  a  school  in  this  country.  Whether  it  was  Army  or  Navy,  I  am  not 
sure.  As  I  recollect  it  was  a  Navy  School  on  the  East  Coast.  The  maps  were 
those  used  by  our  airmen  to  show  the  active  and  passive  defense  areas  of  the 
East  Coast.  I  happened  on  them  by  inspecting  the  map-carrying  case  of  one  of 
the  aviators.    He  didn't  mind  my  looking  at  his  map-carrying  case. 

This  incident  was  reported  through  channels  to  G-2  Washington.  Action 
taken  unknown.  I  do  not  have  in  my  possession  any  of  these  papers  or  docu- 
ments as  most  of  these  were  classified  and  therefore  the  property  of  the  Army. 

Mr.  Ta\'enner.  I  desire  to  offer  this  affidavit  in  evidence,  and  ask 
that  it  be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  11." 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  it  be  admitted. 

(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  11,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  ^ 

Mr.  TA^^:NNER.  Have  j'ou  had  an  opportunity  to  examine  Major 
Jordan's  diary  and  other  notes? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  I  have. 


**  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1141 

Mr.  Tavenner.  As  a  result  of  your  review  of  Major  Jordan's  diary, 
have  you  uncovered  any  new  evidence  that  would  be  important  for 
this  committee  to  consider,  in  your  opinion  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.     Major  Jordan's  diary  contains  an  entry • 

Mr.  Harrison.  This  is  in  the  bound  book  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  This  is  in  the  book,  in  Major  Jordan's  diary.  It  con- 
tains an  entry  under  date  of  February  17,  1944,  that  Soviet  couriers 
Semen  Vassilenko,  Leonid  Rykounin,  Enjeny  Kojernicov,  and  Georges 
Nicolaiev  departed  with  diplomatic  pouches.  The  files  of  the  Com- 
mittee on  Un-American  Activities  reflect  that  these  pouches  contained 
material  regarding  new  and  secret  developments  in  war  industries  in 
the  United  States.  In  this  connection,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  committee 
is  now  in  contact  with  a  former  employee  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
Commission  who  helped  Semen  Vassilenko  pack  the  diplomatic 
pouches  in  February  of  1944. 

Mr.  Nixox.  Do  I  understand  that  you  are  investigating  the  possi- 
bility that  this  particular  transaction  which  you  have  described  may  be 
corroborated  by  a  third  party  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  by  a  former  employee  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing 
•Commission  who  actually  helped  this  man  pack  the  pouches. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Pouches  for  this  particular  date  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Pouches  for  this  particular  date. 

Mr.  Wood.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Appell.  Other  names  appearing  in  Major  Jordan's  diary  have 
been  checked  against  the  committee's  files,  and  considerable  evidence 
is  contained  on  their  participation  in  Soviet  espionage  activities.  As 
the  committee  is  now  preparing  a  report  on  Soviet  espionage  activi- 
ties, I  will  not  go  into  this  matter  in  detail  at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  while  on  your  investigation  at  Great 
Falls,  Mont.,  did  you  determine  whether  or  not  customs  officials  at 
Great  Falls,  Mont.,  operations  ,and  a  statistical  break-down  on  exports 
export  declarations  or  for  other  export  approval  certificates? 

Mr.  Appell.  While  in  Great  Falls,  I  was  unable  to  obtain  anything 
definite  on  this  question.  However,  upon  my  return  to  Washington 
letters  were  addressed  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  and  the  Sec- 
retary of  Commerce  on  this  matter. 

In  the  letter  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  we  advised  the  Secre- 
tary that  information  in  the  possession  of  the  committee  indicated 
that  no  inspection  was  made  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  to  determine 
whether  shipments  under  the  lend-lease  program  carried  export  decla- 
rations, and  requested  that  the  committee  be  advised  whether  ship- 
ments were  checked  for  export  declarations ;  and  asked  that  copies  of 
all  reports  of  inspections  made  by  customs  officials  at  the  Great  Falls 
operation  be  supplied  the  committee. 

In  the  committee's  letter  to  the  Secretary  of  Commerce,  he  was  re- 
quested to  furnish  the  committee  with  a  copy  of  the  report  of  inspec- 
tion made  by  a  Commerce  official  of  the  Great  Falls  operation,  to- 
gether with  advice  as  to  whether  or  not  export  declarations  were  filed 
with  the  Department  of  Commerce  on  lend-lease  shipments  of  a  non- 
military  nature  to  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  during  the  years  1943, 1944,  and 
1945. 

In  reply  to  these  letters,  the  Secretary  of  Commerce,  Secretary 
Sawyer,  submitted  a  report  of  inspection  dated  March  5,  1945,  on 
Great  Falls,  Mont.,  operations,  and  a  statistical  break-down  on  exports 


1142  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

to  the  USSR  from  the  customs  district  of  Montana  and  Idaho,  which 
district  included  Great  Falls,  Mont. 

This  break-down  shows  that  for  the  year  1943  no  transactions  were 
reported  for  the  customs  district  in  which  Great  Falls  is  located.  For 
the  year  1944  only  one  shipment  of  sodium  hydroxide;  and  for  1945, 
15  transactions. 

The  report  of  inspection  made  by  Mr.  Irving  Weiss,  referred  to  in 
the  affidavit  of  Harry  Decker,  and  who  at  that  time  was  Acting  Assist- 
ant Chief  of  Foreign  Trade  Division,  is  as  follows : 

Shipments  of  Lend-Lease  Material  on  ATC  Planes.— I  discussed  with  the  Col- 
lector of  Customs  and  Assistant  Collector,  Mr.  Fallon,  of  the  Customs  Service, 
Mrs.  Billyard,  Chief  Clerk,  Priorities  and  Traffic  Division,  ATC,  Captain  Romney 
and  Captain  Henry  of  the  War  Department  the  procedure  followed  in  the  filing 
of  Lend-Lease  declarations  for  shipments  on  ATC  planes.  Mrs.  Billyard  had  no 
recollection  of  filing  any  Lend-Lease  declarations.  She  is  able  to  identify  Lend- 
Lease  shipments  from  the  information  shown  on  the  shipping  papers.  Since  these 
shipments  are  consigned  to  the  Army  officer  in  charge  at  Edmonton,  Canada,  no 
declarations  are  being  filed  in  accordance  with  present  War  Department  regula- 
tions. Mrs.  Billyard  also  described  a  number  of  other  shipments  for  which 
declarations  are  not  being  tiled  at  present.  These  include  shipments  identified  as 
international  aid,  Russian  war  relief.  Red  Cross  shipments,  and  DOES  (Depot 
Overseas  Equipment  Section).  Captain  Henry  was  not  able  to  define  the  above 
categories.  It  will  be  necessary  to  contact  the  War  Department  here  to  deter- 
mine whether  declarations  are  required  for  these  shipments  and  to  arrange  for 
their  filing  in  the  War  Department  regulations.  I  attempted  to  get  copies  of  the 
various  types  of  shipping  papers  covering  these  special  categories  but  was  unable 
to  do  so  because  of  the  security  regulations.  Captain  Henry  suggested  that  we 
request  Ma.ior  Cohen  in  the  Washington  ATC  office  to  obtain  copies  for  us  from 
Great  Falls.  It  is  my  understanding  that  copies  of  the  War  Department  shipping 
tickets  are  also  filed  in  Washington.  If  reports  of  prior  months'  transactions  are 
required,  it  may  be  possible  to  use  these  documents.  This  question  should  be 
discussed  with  Major  Cohen  in  Washington. 

In  reply  to  our  letter  to  the  Treasury  Department,  we  were  advised 
by  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  John  S.  Graham  as  follows : 

Reference  is  acnin  made  to  your  letter  of  January  25,  1950  (DTA),  in  which 
you  state  that  the  Committee  is  experiencing  difficulty  in  obtaining  copies 
of  export  declarations  certified  by  the  Bureau  of  Customs  for  shipments  of  uran- 
ium compounds  and  heavy  water  through  the  port  of  Great  Falls,  IMontana.  An 
inquiry  tiy  the  Committee  of  certain  Governmental  agencies  failed  to  disclose 
export  declarations  on  the  above-mentioned  shipments.  It  is  alleged,  you  con- 
tinue, that  no  export  declarations  were  received  covering  Lend-Lease  shipments 
through  Great  Falls,  Montana,  and  it  is  therefore  assumed  that  such  shipments 
were  not  inspected  to  determine  whether  they  carried  an  export  permit  for  the 
reason  that  these  shipments  were  going  through  on  United  States  aircraft,  even 
though  they  were  being  exported  to  the  Soviet  Union. 

You  ask  to  be  advised  whether  shipments  were  checked  by  customs  officers  at 
Great  FaPs  for  export  declarations,  and,  if  export  declarations  were  certified  by 
customs  officers,  the  office  or  agency  to  which  these  declarations  were  forwarded. 
You  also  ask  to  be  furnished  with  copies  of  all  reports  of  inspection  made  by 
customs  officers  of  the  Great  Falls  operation  as  affected  the  Bureau  of  Customs. 

Export  procedure,  as  prescribed  by  the  Bureau  of  the  Census,  Department  of 
Commerce,  called  for  export  declarations  throughout  the  war  on  all  Lend-Lease 
articles  transported  by  air  to  Russia,  except  for  the  aircraft  themselves.  How- 
ever, it  was  expected  that  Collectors  of  Customs  at  some  ports  would  encounter 
difficulty  in  enforcing  this  requirement  because  of  the  necessarily  overriding 
demands  of  military  secrecy,  and  this  proved  to  be  the  case.  It  may  also  be  noted 
that  after  1942,  tlie  declarations  were  employed  for  statistical  purposes  only 
by  the  Bureau  of  the  Census.  The  control  over  Lend-Lease  shipments  was  exer- 
cised by  the  Lend-Lease  Administration  and  its  successor,  at  points  before  the 
merchandise  reached  the  borders.  As  the  collector  has  reported  the  situation  at 
Great  Palls  to  the  Bureau  of  Customs : 

"During  the  war  outbound  aircraft,  which  misrht  be  either  U.  S.  Army  craft 
or  aircraft  being  exported,  were  sometimes  loaded  with  cargo  at  Great  Falls.    At 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1143 

times  export  declarations  were  filed,  but  more  often  a  cargo  manifest  was  sup- 
plied the  customs  officer  on  duty.  This  manifest  was  seldom  a  detailed  list  of 
objects  contained  in  the  aircraft,  and  more  often  stated  simply  that  the  load  con- 
tained so  many  thousand  pounds  of  military  equipment  or  supplies. 

"It  was  never  physically  possible  to  check  the  cargo  of  an  aircraft  departing 
from  Great  Falls  at  any  time,  for  the  reason  that  they  were  loaded  by  military 
personnel  before  being:  presented  to  customs  oflicers.  If  an  export  declaration 
was  filed  it  was  certified  by  the  customs  ofticer,  and  if  a  cargo  manifest  was 
furnished  that  document  was  attached  to  the  customs  Form  7509  covering  the 
flight.  Certified  export  declarations  were  forwarded  to  the  Section  of  Customs 
Statistics,  Bureau  of  the  Census,  434  Customhouse,  New  York.  New  York."  Such 
inspection  of  Great  Falls  operations  as  Bureau  of  Customs  officials  made  during 
the  war  was  not  reported  on  in  writing,  and  therefore  no  copy  of  any  such  report 
can  be  furnished. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  date  of  that  letter? 

Mr,  Appell.  This  letter  was  dated  yesterday — March  1,  1950. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Have  you  received  records  of  shipments  from  Great 
Falls  by  lend-lease  aircraft? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes.  The  United  States  Air  Forces  have  furnished 
the  committee  with  complete  records  of  air  freight  shipments  through 
Great  Falls  durin<^  the  years  1943  and  1944. 

Mr.  Walter.  Before  you  go  into  that,  do  you  intend  to  let  the  letters 
go  in  evidence  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  have  not  actually  introduced  them  as  exhibits, 
since  they  have  been  read  into  the  record,  but  we  can  do  so. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  think  it  is  important. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  the  letter  of  February  7,  1950, 
from  the  Secretary  of  Commerce,  and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Appell 
exhibit  12";  and  I  offer  in  evidence  the  letter  of  March  1,  1950,  from 
Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  John  S.  Graham,  and  ask  that  it 
be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  13." 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  them  be  admitted. 

(The  letters  above  referred  to  marked  respectively  "Appell  Exhibit 
12"  and  "Appell  Exhibit  13"  are  filed  herewith.)  *-^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  also  offer  in  evidence  the  report  of  inspection  of 
Irving  Weiss,  Acting  Assistant  Chief,  Foreign  Trade  Division,  De- 
partment of  Commerce,  Bureau  of  the  Census,  dated  March  5,  1945, 
and  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  14." 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  it  be  admitted. 

(The  docimient  above  referred  to  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  14"  is 
filed  herewith.)  ^'^ 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Have  you  itemized  the  various  items  shipped  by 
this  medium  during  1943  and  1944? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  statistics  furnished  the  committee  by  the  Air 
Forces  carry  a  complete  break-down  for  the  year  1944,  as  follows* 

Printed  matter  in  which  category  is  included  blueprints,  drawings. 

books,   magazines,   newspapers,   office  supplies,   and   technical  publi-  Pounds 

cations 104.638 

Airplane   parts 1, 166,307 

Miscellaneous   tools 55,  315 

Misr-ellaneous    equipment 184,  236 

Explosives 5, 124 

Medical 43,618 

Routine  and  diplomatic  mail 54,  309 

Personal  items,  clothing,  etc 14, 155 

Total  freight  shipments  during  the  year  1944 1,  717,  702 

*^  See  appendix. 
■**  See  appendix. 


1144  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  offer  in  evidence  this  statistical  data  received 
from  the  Army  Air  Forces,  which  includes  documentation  of  the 
shipments  of  uranium  oxide  and  nitrate  and  heavy  water,  referred 
to  in  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Owens  and  which  we  said  we  would  intro- 
duce as  an  exhibit,  and  I  ask  that  it  be  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  15." 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  it  be  admitted. 

(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Appell  Exhibit  15,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  *^ 

Mr.  Kearney.  Is  there  any  further  identification  of  the  blueprints 
mentioned  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Newspapers  to  Russia,  drawings;  total  weight. 

Mr.  Kearney.  I  am  speaking  particularly  about  the  blueprints. 

Mr.  Wood.  As  I  understand,  the  inquiiy  is  whether  they  specifically 
identify  the  blueprints. 

Mr.  Appell.  They  do  not.  All  we  have  is  the  total  weight  of  the 
package. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Appell,  I  believe  you  have  already  stated  that 
you  received  the  cooperation  of  the  various  departments  in  compiling 
this  information,  in  a  very  fine  way  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  On  behalf  of  the  investigators'  staff,  I  want  to  sin- 
cerely thank  all  the  departments  for  their  wonderful  cooperation  in 
this  matter.  It  would  never  have  been  possible  for  us  to  have  shown 
and  documented  in  detail  these  transactions  without  their  full  co- 
operation and  assistance,  which  they  gave  us  without  hesitation. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  No  further  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Walter? 

Mr.  Walter.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Harrison? 

Mr.  Harrison.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Moulder? 

Mr.  Moulder.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Nixon. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  have  some  questions,  but  I  don't  want  to  ask  them 
now. 

Mr.  Wood.  Can  the  committee  get  back  at  3  o'clock  ?  The  committee 
will  stand  adjourned  until  3  o'clock. 

(Thereupon,  a  recess  was  taken  until  3  p.  m. ;  and  at  3  p.  m.  the 
hearing  was  recessed  until  Friday,  March  3,  1950,  at  10:30  a.  m.) 

*^  See  appendix. 


heakinctS  eegardinct  shipment  of  atomic  material 
TO  the  soviet  union  during  world  war  II 


FRIDAY,   MAKCH  3,   1950 

United  States  House  of  Kepresentatives, 

Subcommittee  of  the 
Committee  on  Un-American  Actrt:ties, 

Washingt07i,  D.  C. 

public  hearing 

Tlie  subcommittee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  10 :  30  a.  m.,  in  room 
226,  Old  House  Office  Building,  Hon.  John  S.  Wood  (chairman) 
presiding. 

Committee  members  present:  Representatives  John  S.  Wood 
(chairman),  Richard  M.  Nixon,  Francis  Case  (arriving  as  indicated) ^ 
Harold  H.  Velde,  and  Bernard  W.  Kearney. 

Staff  members  present :  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  counsel ;  Louis  J. 
Russell,  senior  investigator;  Donald  T.  Appell,  investigator;  Jolin 
W.  Carrington,  clerk;  Benjamin  Mandel,  director  of  research;  and 
A.  S.  Poore,  editor. 

Mr.  Wood.  Let  the  committee  be  in  order. 

Let  the  record  show,  please,  that  for  the  time  being  the  committee 
is  operating  under  a  subcommittee  consisting  of  Messrs.  Nixon,  Velde,^ 
Kearney,  and  Wood. 

Are  you  ready  to  proceed,  ]\Ir.  Counsel  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes,  sir.     Major  Jordan. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  had  some  questions  I  wanted  to  ask  Mr.  Appell. 

Mr.  Wood.  I  would  like  to  proceed  with  this  witness. 

Mr.  Nixon.  It  would  be  helpful  if  I  could  ask  Mr.  Appell  a  few 
questions  to  lay  the  foundation  for  such  questions  as  we  may  want  tO' 
ask  Major  Jordan.     You  have  no  objection,  have  you  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  None  at  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  I  have  no  questions  to  ask  Mr.  Appell.  You  may 
proceed. 

(Representative  Wood  leaves  hearing  room.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  DONALD  T.  APPELI^Resumed 

Mr.  Nixon.  Mr.  Appell,  yesterday  you  testified  at  considerable 
length  from  documents  and  memoranda,  setting  forth  the  results  of 
your  own  investigation  in  this  case.  What  I  would  like  to  do  now 
is  to  determine  w^hether  the  conclusions  I  have  reached  from  hearing 
that  mass  of  testimony  that  went  into  the  record  yesterday  is  correct 
or  not  correct.  I  would  like  to  go  into  some  of  the  points  at  issue- 
in  this  case. 

1145 


1146  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Of  course  the  major  point  at  issue  is  the  over-all  credibility  of 
the  so-called  Jordan  story.  Some  of  those  points  were  rather  clearly 
brought  out  yesterday,  and  some  I  have  a  question  on  that  I  would 
like  to  clear  up. 

First  of  all,  a  general  question.  I  think  immediately  after  the 
hearings  last  December  the  major  concern  of  the  reporters  covering 
the  facts  brought  out  at  the  hearings  then  was  probably  fairly  well 
stated  by  an  editorial  which  appeared  in  Life  magazine.  I  quote 
directly  from  that  editorial : 

Competent  investigators  of  the  FBI  and  Military  Intelligence  have  gone  over 
this  whole  ground  and  have  found  nothing  to  substantiate  the  charges. 

Do  you  agree  with  that  statement,  that  your  investigation  has  dis- 
closed nothing  to  substantiate  any  of  the  Jordan  charges? 

Mr.  Appell.  Mr.  Nixon,  as  I  testified  yesterday,  Army  documents 
show  that  on  the  7th  of  March  1944,  a  report  was  made  to  Air  Trans- 
port Command  to  the  effect  that  a  shipment  had  gone  through,  and 
that  one  of  the  parcels  that  went  through  had  been  examined  by 
Jordan  and  that  it  contained  plans  of  the  A-20  plane,  long-  and  short- 
haul  routes,  and  other  technical  data.  This  was  reported  to  Wash- 
ington, although  we  were  unable  to  substantiate  the  exact  manner  in 
which  it  was  reported. 

I  also  testified  with  regard  to  an  interview  with  Major  Jordan  on 
the  13th  of  March  1944,  in  which  he  advised  a  CIC  agent  of  certain 
irregularities  at  Great  Falls,  and  in  which  he  requested  that  he  be 
further  interviewed  in  minute  detail,  and  that  he  was  advised  this 
would  be  done.  The  records  show  he  was  not  further  interviewed ;  at 
least,  the  agent  who  was  supposed  to  interview  him  had  no  recollection 
of  doing  so. 

That  shows  that  Major  Jordan  did  make  official  reports  of  this 
matter. 

Mr.  Nixon.  But  he  only  did  it  on  two  occasions;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Appell.  Two  occasions  as  far  as  we  could  find  in  documenta- 
tion. 

Mv.  Velde.  Will  the  gentleman  yield  ? 

Mr.  Nixon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  Was  Major  Jordan's  story,  as  far  as  your  investigation 
was  concerned,  ever  discredited  by  any  of  the  witnesses  whom  you 
contacted? 

Mr.  Appell.  No.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  would  like  to  read  an  in- 
dorsement by  General  Dunlap,  who  was  Acting  Adjutant  General  of 
the  Army. 

Mr.  Velde.  I  think  the  true  facts  should  be  brought  out  regardless 
of  whom  it  hurts,  and  that  was  the  purpose  of  asking  that  question. 

Mr.  Appell.  General  Dunlap  said  this : 

The  action  being  taken  by  Army  Air  Forces,  as  indicated  by  paragraph  4  of 
the  basic  communication,  is  correct  and  constitutes  the  full  discharge  of  all 
responsibilties  of  the  War  Department  in  this  connection.  The  security  aspects 
of  this  matter  have  been  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  Department  of  State, 
the  Customs  Service,  Immigration  Service,  OfBce  of  Censorship,  and  the  De- 
partment of  Justice.  Beyond  that,  the  War  Department  has  no  authority  to 
act.  The  agencies  mentioned  have  had  this  matter  under  study  and  investiga- 
tion for  some  time  and  their  inquiries  continue.  While  they  have  arrived  at 
no  final  conclusions  in  the  matter,  it  is  indicated  that  the  results  will  be  a  more 
comprehensive  enforcement  of  existing  laws  and  regulations  than  heretofore  has 
been  the  case. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1147 

The  matter  that  was  called  to  their  attention  was  Major  Jordan's 
statement  in  evidence  which  he  gave  to  the  CIC  agent  on  March  13, 
1944. 

Mr.  Velde.  Do  you  recall  what  report  the  CIC  agent  made  with 
respect  to  Major  Jordan  that  was  the  background  of  this  statement 
which  you  have  just  read  ? 

Mr.  Appell  (reading)  : 

There  is  an  incredible  amount  of  diplomatic  mail  sent  to  Russia  through  Great 
Falls.  On  29  January  1944,  on  aircraft  C-47  (2440),  3,563  pounds  of  mail  was 
shipped  to  Russia.  On  17  February  1944,  on  aircraft  C-47  (2.579)  4,180  pounds 
of  mail  was  sent.  On  28  February  1944,  on  aircraft  C-47  (92764),  3,757  pounds 
of  mail  was  sent.  All  of  this  was  protected  from  censorship  by  diplomatic  im- 
munity. It  may  be  significant  that  it  is  not  at  all  uncommon  for  the  Russian 
mail  or  freiglit  shipment  to  be  accompanied  by  two  men,  who  openly  state  that 
they  are  to  see  that  the  mail  or  freight  is  not  examined  and  the  diplomatic  im- 
munity privilege  violated.  One  man  sleeps  while  the  other  watches  the  parcels 
and  vice  versa.  Major  Jordan  admitted,  without  reservation,  that  he  knew 
nothing  regarding  the  amount  of  mail  or  freight  that  a  foreign  country  nor- 
mally sends  through  its  diplomatic  service,  but  it  is  thought  that  that  informa- 
tion can  be  readily  obtained. 

Many  high  ranking  Russian  Army  Officers,  Civilian  Representatives,  members 
of  the  Russian  Diplomatic  Service  and  their  families  pass  through  this  Base. 
The  United  States  Justice  Department  has  but  two  men  assigned  to  the  Great 
Falls  area  to  handle  all  matters  pertaining  to  customs  and  immigration  in  this 
vicinity.  One  of  the  men  works  during  the  day  and  the  other  at  night.  Anyone 
who  passes  through  this  Base,  other  than  those  in  the  Armed  Forces  of  the 
United  States,  must  go  tlirough  customs.  Major  Jordan  has  seen  the  families 
of  high  ranking  Russian  Army  Officers  and  the  wife  of  former  Ambassador 
Molitov  greatly  delayed  in  passage  merely  because  the  customs  officer  had  the 
duties  of  two  or  three  men.  This  point  is  made  because  it  is  believed  this  con- 
dition is  not  conducive  to  desired  feeling  between  the  United  States  and  the 
Soviet  Union.  It  is  suggested  that  this  issue  be  discussed  with  the  Justice  De- 
partment. 

This  Agent  observed  that  Major  Jordan  appeared  to  maintain  accurate,  de- 
tailed files  and  was  very  anxious  to  convey  his  information  through  intelligence 
channels.  He  requested  that  he  be  contacted  at  a  time  when  the  Russian  activity 
could  be  outlined  in  minute  detail  and  was  advised  that  this  would  be  done  by 
CIC  Agent— 

and  here  I  do  not  identify  the  agent — 

who  is  currently  attached  to  the  Intelligence  and  Security  Office,  Station  5,  East 
Base,  Great  Falls,  Montana. 

It  is  recommended  that  a  prolonged  interview  be  conducted  with  Major  Jordan  ; 
that  his  records  lie  scrutinized  for  information  of  an  intelligence  nature;  and 
that  he  be  contacted  regularly. 

It  is  further  recommended  that  the  facts  contained  herein  be  given  due  con- 
sideration, with  a  view  to  contacting  the  State  Department  in  order  that  they 
be  made  cognizant  of  the  situation  and  that  corrective  measures  be  taken. 

Mr.  Velde.  I  think  that  material  was  read  at  some  length  yester- 
day. 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  sir.  It  was  this  information  that  was  passed  by 
the  Army  to  the  State  Department. 

Mr.  NixoN".  What  I  am  getting  at  here,  your  investigation  shows 
first,  then,  that  Major  Jordan  did,  at  least  on  two  occasions,  make  a 
report  concerning  the  passage  of  materials  through  Great  Falls? 

JSIr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  that  he  requested  that  he  be  contacted  later  so 
that  he  could  outline  the  shipments  in  detail;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  sir. 

(Kepresentative  Wood  returns  to  hearing  room.) 


1148  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Nixo^r.  Of  course,  in  that  connection,  I  suppose  Major  Jordan 

is  faced  with  somewhat  of  a  problem,  because  I  recall  a  similar  case 

I  should  say  a  case  in  which  the  committee  conducted  an  investigation 
involving  Mr.  Chambers — and  as  I  recall,  Mr.  Chambers  had  to  tell 
his  story  five  times  before  any  cognizance  was  taken  of  his  charges. 
So  apparentlj^  if  Major  Jordan  had  told  his  more  than  twice  he 
might  have  gotten  the  Government  to  do  something  about  it.  But  be 
that  as  it  may,  as  I  see  it  at  present  the  issues  are  five,  and  before 
Major  Jordan  goes  on  the  stand  I  want  to  see  which  of  the  charges 
are  still  at  issue. 

First  of  all,  the  charge  was  made  that  if  the  shipments  were  going 
through,  Major  Jordan  should  have  made  a  report.  In  this  regard,, 
he  did  make  a  report  of  the  charges  at  least  on  two  occasions.  Is  that 
correct  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes;  and  in  respect  to  Major  Jordan's  testimony,  yes- 
terday I  stayed  away  entirely  from  shipments  of  uranium  and  heavy 
water. 

Mr.  Nixon.  The  fact  is  that  Major  Jordan  did  report  the  charges; 
is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  and  I  also  could  add  that  we  made  request  for 
reports  of  Intelligence  officers  signed  at  the  base,  and  that  these  reports 
could  not  be  located.  My  testimony  is  based  on  documents  which  we 
have  received. 

Mr.  Nixon.  As  far  as  you  have  been  able  to  find,  at  least  two  reports 
were  made? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes ;  that  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  think  that  is  sufficient,  probably ;  there  may  have  been 
others;  but  the  point  of  reporting  by  Major  Jordan  stands  up. 

Another  point  that  was  made  was  whether  or  not  he  tore  radar 
equipment  out  of  C-47  planes.  As  I  understand,  this  particular  phase 
of  his  story  was  questioned  in  the  article  in  I^ife  magazine,  in  which 
they  said  that  the  report  that  Mr.  Jordan  ripped  out  radar  equij)ment 
from  C-47"s  was  preposterous,  and  they  quoted  his  superior  officer, 
Meredith,  in  that  respect;  aiicl  it  was  further  said  that  as  a  matter 
of  fact  no  C-47's  were  equipped  with  radar  at  the  time  mentioned  by 
Major  Jordan. 

The  investigation  of  the  committee,  in  addition  to  your  own,  has 
shown,  (1)  that  C-47*s  equipped  with  radar  and  going  to  Russia  did 
go  through  Great  Falls;  and  (2)  that  Mr.  Jordan  specifically  asked 
permission  of  Colonel  Gitzinger  in  Dayton  to  tear  the  radar  equip- 
ment out  of  a  specific  plane  on  one  occasion. 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  correct,  and  he  received  that  permission  from 
Colonel  Gitzinger. 

(Representative  Case  arrives  in  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Nixon.  Then  on  the  point  of  whether  Major  Jordan  did  or 
did  not  tear  radar  out  of  a  plane,  your  investigation  substantiates 
Major  Jordan? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Another  point  that  Major  Jordan  made  was  that  cer- 
tain documents  were  going  through  Great  Falls  under  diplomatic 
immunity;  that  he  broke  into  the  cases,  examined  the  documents,  and 
that  some  of  the  material  in  there  which  he  examined  consisted  of 
plans,  secret  material,  and  so  on,  which  it  would  be  assumed  normally 
would  not  be  regarded  to  be  under  diplomatic  immunity. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1149 

I  think  it  is  quite  clear  from  your  testimony  that  that  phase  of 
Major  Jordan's  testimony  stands  up ;  is  that  correct  ^ 

Mr.  Appell.  Well,  we  do  know,  we  are  in  contact  with  a  witness, 
ii  former  employee  of  the  Russian  Purchasing  Commission,  who  helped 
pack  one  pouch  of  so-called  diplomatic  mail  that  went  through,  and 
we  know  it  contained  material  highly  secretive  on  industrial  and  war 
developments.  We  have  been  unable  to  investigate  Major  Jordan's 
testimony  with  respect  to  other  things  because  we  were  unable  to  de- 
termine the  nature  or  contents  of  these  documents. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Is  it  the  intention  of  the  staff,  then,  to  present  this 
witness  who  may  be  able  to  substantiate,  at  least  in  part.  Major  Jor- 
dan's testimony  that  secret  material  was  going  through  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Nixon.  On  the  point  of  the  so-called  shipments  of  uranium,  as 
I  understand  the  case,  first,  there  is  no  question  about  the  shipments 
going  through ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  As  to  the  shipments  of  uranium  and  heavy  water, 
two  specific  shipments  of  uranium  oxide  and  nitrate  and  shipments 
■of  heavy  water  have  been  completely  documented  to  include  even 
the  number  of  the  plane  that  flew  the  uranium  and  heavy  water  out 
of  Great  Falls. 

Mr.  NixoN.  Isn't  it  true  these  shipments  were  made  with  the  knowl- 
edge and  approval  of  our  officials  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Export  declarations  on  these  shipments  were  approved 
by  Lend-Lease  and  later  by  its  successor  organization.  Foreign  Eco- 
nomic Administration. 

Mr.  NixoN.  And  in  the  case  of  one  shipment,  the  first,  General 
Groves  and  members  of  the  Atomic  Energy  Commission  learned  about 
it  was  when  this  committee  began  its  investigation;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  sr. 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  the  final  point  is  the  matter  of  Mr.  Hopkins  hav- 
ing attempted  to  expedite  the  shipments.  Major  Jordan's  testimony 
on  that  was  that  his  notes,  written  at  the  time,  showed  the  initials 
^'H.  H."  on  one  of  the  consignments  which  he  broke  into.  Your  in- 
vestigation has  shown  no  correspondence  of  Mr.  Hopkins  in  which 
he  used  the  initials  "H.  H."    Is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  which  we  reviewed. 

Mr.  Nixon.  On  that  point,  then,  you  have  been  unable  to  substanti- 
ate Major  Jordan's  charge;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  right,  but  with  respect  to  documents  examined 
to  find  out  whether  or  not  it  was  possible  for  the  thing  to  have  hap- 
pened, we  only  examined  documents  furnished  us  by  the  Army  and 
Air  Forces.  We  requested  permission  to  review  the  files  of  the  Presi-^ 
dent's  Protocol  Commission,  now  in  the  possession  of  Archives,  and 
certain  other  documents  in  the  custody  of  the  Department  of  State, 
and  we  were  not  given  permission  to  review  these  files.  Mr.  Hopkins 
was  chairman  of  the  President's  Protocol  Commission. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  understand  that.  My  point  is  that  as  far  as  the  in- 
vestigation you  have  been  able  to  make  is  concerned,  you  as  yet 
have  been  unable  to  substantiate  Major  Jordan's  story  on  that  point; 
is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  But  you  have  substantiated  it  on  the  four  other  points 
I  mentioned  ? 


1150  SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Appell.  Generally;  yes. 

Mr.  Nixon,  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Case. 

Mr.  Case.  Mr.  Appell,  did  you  look  into  the  sio^iificance  of  the 
change  in  position  taken  with  reference  to  the  sending  of  the  C-47 
airplane  ^^■hich  the  Russians  requested,  in  which  they  wanted  to  carry 
four  passengers  and  4,000  pounds  of  mail  or  other  material? 

JSIr.  Appell.  I  went  into  the  whole  record  of  the  transactions  be- 
tween the  War  Department,  ATC,  and  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Com- 
mission for  Special  Aircraft.  When  the  thing  first  started,  the  Rus- 
sians came  to  the  Army  and  expressed  their  difficulty  in  sending  diplo- 
matic mail  from  Washington  to  Great  Falls  by  rail,  which  necessi- 
tated reloading  three  times,  and  asked  for  this  special  aircraft. 

Their  first  request  was  turned  down.  It  was  turned  down  finally 
on  the  recommendation  of  General  Deane,  head  of  our  military  mis- 
sion in  Moscow.  When  the  Russians  made  the  second  request  it  was 
again  sent  to  General  Deane,  and  the  final  decision  in  the  matter  was 
based  upon  the  recommendation  of  General  Deane  and  Ambassador 
Harriman,  who  recommended  that  nothing  be  done  to  disrupt  the 
arrangements  which  had  been  agreed  to  by  the  ATC. 

Mr.  Case.  I  notice  that  when  the  change  was  made  on  that  C-47. 
the  approval  was  based  on  the  weight  being  limited  to  between  2,500 
and  3,000  pounds.  Did  you  look  into  what  the  pay  load  of  a  C-47 
was  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  No:  but  we  have  seen  documentation  of  flights  going 
through  carrying  as  high  as  4,100  pounds. 

Mr.  Case.  And  how  many  passengers? 

Mr.  Appell.  Two  and  4.100  pounds. 

Mr.  Case.  Two  passengers  and  4,100  pounds  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Case.  Allowins:  200  pounds  for  each  man,  that  would  be  4,500 
pounds.  The  modification  suggested  that  four  people  might  go 
with  2,000  or  3,000  pounds.  Was  that  the  reason  for  the  modification, 
or  was  there  a  policy  involved? 

Mr.  Appell.  I  have  been  unable  to  find  that.  It  has  been  suggested 
to  me  that  the  reasons  for  it  was  because  the  plane  was  from  New  York 
going  west,  and  there  was  a  question  of  gas  load  which  made  them 
cut  down  on  the  weiglit  of  the  cargo,  but  I  do  not  know  that  for  a  fact. 

Mr.  Case.  General  Deane  was  head  of  our  military  mission  in 
Moscow.    That  is  Gen.  John  R.  Deane.    His  original  recominendation 
presumably  would  have  been  on  a  question  of  policy,  and  later  re- 
versed on  a  question  of  policy? 
,     Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  I  now  have  in  my  hands  this  confidential  memorandum 
from  which  you  read  yesterday  but  which  was  not  introduced  in  evi- 
dence, with  identification  of  the  names.  This  is  the  report  of  a  special 
agent  for  Counter  Intelligence.  You  will  recall  yesterday  liaving  read 
two  recommendations,  following  the  paragraph  in  which  the  agent 
observed  that  Major  Jordan  appeared  to  maintain  accurate,  detailed 
files  and  was  very  anxious  to  convey  his  information  through  Intelli- 
gence channels;  and  that  he  requested  that  he  be  contacted  at  a  time 
when  the  Russian  activity  could  be  outlined  in  minute  detail  and  was 
advised  that  this  would  be  done  by  CIC  agent  so  and  so,  who  was 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1151 

attached  to  tlie  Intelligence  and  Security  Office,  Station  5,  East  Base, 
Great  Falls,  Mont. 

Then  the  following  two  recommendations  were  made  by  the  special 
agent : 

It  is  recommended  that  a  prolonged  interview  be  conducted  witli  Major 
Jordan  ;  that  liis  i-ecords  be  scrutinized  for  information  of  an  intelligence  nature ; 
and  that  he  be  contacted  regularly. 

Did  your  investigation  disclose  that  that  recommendation  was  car- 
ried out  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  He  was  not  again  interviewed. 

Mr.  Case.  He  was  not  again  interviewed  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  No,  sir,  as  far  as  the  records  are  concerned. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  you  find  any  explanation  of  why  this  recommenda- 
tion was  not  followed? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  agent  mentioned  there  said  he  received  no  in- 
structions to  do  so. 

Mr.  Case.  The  next  recommendation  was,  and  this  is  the  concluding 
paragraph  of  this  special  agent's  report : 

It  is  further  recommended  that  the  facts  contained  herein  be  given  due  con- 
sideration, with  a  view  to  contacting  the  State  Department  in  order  that  they 
be  made  cognizant  of  the  situation  and  that  corrective  measures  be  taken. 

Did  your  investigation  disclose  whether  that  recommendation  was 
followed  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  sir,  it  was,  and  almost  the  entire  report  of  that 
special  agent  was  sent  by  Army  to  State  Department. 

Mr.  Case.  That  is,  they  were  contacted  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Case.  But  did  your  investigation  determine,  after  they  were 
made  cognizant  of  the  situation,  that  any  corrective  measures  were 
taken  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  first  action  the  State  Department  took  was  to 
call  a  conference  of  all  interested  agencies.  It  was  held  on  July  6, 
1944,  and  the  agencies  represented  were  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investi- 
gation; Office  of  Censorship;  Military  Intelligence;  Air  Transport 
Command;  Immigration  and  Naturalization  Service;  Bureau  of  Cus- 
toms; Foreign  Economic  Administration;  and  State  Department. 

Mr.  Case.  And  wdiat  was  the  final  outcome  of  that? 

Mr.  Appell.  What  transpired  at  the  meeting,  the  committee  has 
never  been  able  to  determine,  because  minutes  of  the  meeting  and 
memoranda  which  might  have  been  prepared  on  the  meeting  cannot 
be  located  by  the  State  Department.  The  only  thing  the  committee 
has  in  connection  with  that  meeting  is  a  report  dated  July  6,  1944, 
by  Col.  L.  R.  Forney,  who  was  one  of  Military  Intelligence's  repre- 
sentatives at  that  conference.  I  will  be  only  too  happy  to  read  again 
Colonel  Forney's  report. 

Mr.  Case.  I  don't  know  that  it  is  necessary  to  read  that.  I  would  like 
to  have  an  answer,  though,  to  the  direct  question  as  to  whether  or  not 
that  meeting  and  this  review  by  the  State  Department  led  to  any 
corrective  measures  or  any  measures  to  give  any  assistance  to  IVIajor 
Jordan  in  the  inspection  of  this  cargo? 

Mr.  Appell.  Mr.  Bohlen  of  the  State  Department  advised  that  he 
intended  to  take  up  with  the  second  secretary  of  the  Soviet  Embassy 
in  Washington  this  question.     Then  on  the  27th  or  28th  of  July 


1152  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

there  was  forwarded  to  the  second  secretary  of  the  Soviet  Embassy 
an  informal  memorandum  of  customs  and  censorship  regulations,  and 
the  second  secretary  was  advised  that  these  regulations  would  be 
strictly  enforced,  effective  upon  his  receipt  of  them. 

(Representative  Nixon  leaves  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Appell  (continuing).  The  record  continues  on  to  show  that  in 
September  1944  they  apparently  were  not  corrected,  because  another 
Intelligence  and  Security  officer  reported  on  September  21,  1944, 
that  the  condition  was  still  going  on,  and  that  while  he  held  up  planes 
and  refused  to  permit  planes  to  fly  without  the  customs  people  looking 
at  the  cargo,  that  no  inspection  was  made  by  censorship,  and  the 
special  agent  stated  that  in  his  opinion  this  action  was  a  violation  of 
the  espionage  statute. 

I  have  been  unable  to  find  from  any  documents  received  that  any 
corrective  measures  were  ever  put  into  effect  to  actually  search  what 
went  through  Great  Falls. 

Mr.  Kearney.  In  other  words,  there  was  plenty  of  talk  but  little 
action. 

Mr.  Case.  "WTiose  responsibility  would  it  have  been  to  see  that 
these  regulations  were  enforced  in  conformity  with  the  notice  served 
on  the  second  secretary  of  the  Soviet  Embassy  on  the  28th  of  July  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Well,  it  would  seem  that  the  responsibility  would  have 
been  placed  in  the  hands  of,  I  would  say,  three  agencies. 

Customs  had  a  responsibility  to  inspect  to  see  that  only  diplomatic 
mail  went  through  without  inspection.  If  they  found  that  there  was 
cargo  involved  which  should  have  an  export  license  or  which  should 
be  inspected,  then  they  should  have  notified  censorship,  which  was 
the  agency  with  the  responsibility  of  making  examinations.  If  it  was 
material  that  required  export  declarations,  customs,  under  their  re- 
sponsibility, was  supposed  to  refuse  permission  for  that  cargo  to 
leave  Great  Falls  until  such  time  as  it  had  an  export  declaration. 

Colonel  Forney's  memorandum  of  July  6,  1944,  stated  that  other 
agencies  assumed  that  it  was  Army's  responsibility,  and  Army  had 
no  responsibility  in  the  matter  whatsoever  other  than ■ 

]Mr.  Case.  You  referred  to  the  report  made  in  September  in  which 
the  agent  then  called  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  situation  was 
continuing,  and  I  believe  you  used  the  expression  that  apparently  it 
was  a  violation  of  the  Espionage  Act  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  That  is  what  the  agent  said,  and  that  was  concurred 
in  by  the  Acting  Adjutant  General  of  the  United  States  Army. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  the  report  indicate  by  whom  the  violation  was  made? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  violation,  as  the  agent  stated  it,  was  in  permit- 
ting the  stuff  to  go  through  without  Censorship's  examination.  It 
didn't  place  the  responsibility  on  any  agency. 

Mr.  Case.  Did  your  investigation  determine  whether  or  not  this 
report,  concurred  in  by  the  Adjutant  General,  was  brought  to  the 
attention  of  Customs  or  the  State  Department? 

Mr.  Appell.  General  Dunlap,  in  the  last  indorsement  of  the  docu- 
ment, said  that  the  condition  had  been  called  to  the  attention  of  the 
agencies  and  that  they  were  studying  the  question,  and  that  it  was 
anticipated  regulations  would  be  placed  into  effect  to  correct  these 
conditions.  The  documents  supplied  do  not  indicate  that  this  was 
done. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1153 

Mr.  Case.  So,  somewhere  all  of  these  efforts  on  the  part  of  Major 
Jordan  and  of  the  agents  of  Counter  Intelligence  to  correct  these 
conditions  ran  into  a  dead  end? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  Just  one  question  with  reference  to  these  diplomatic 
pouches.  Did  your  investigation  reveal  how  the  diplomatic  pouches 
were  made  u]t  and  who  was  responsible  for  sealing  them  and  so 
forth? 

Mr.  Appell.  The  responsibility  for  sealing  the  diplomatic  pouches 
was  the  responsibility  of  the  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission,  who 
sent  them. 

Mr.  Velde.  No  American  authority  had  that  responsibility  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  No.  The  Russians  prepared  the  so-called  diplomatic 
cargo  or  diplomatic  mail  in  two  different  ways,  although  it  was  all 
given  the  same  treatment.  In  one  type  they  placed  the  embassy  seal, 
the  seal  of  the  government.  In  another  type  they  would  take  a  box 
or  cheap  patent  leather  suitcase,  tie  it  with  a  piece  of  sash  cord,  knot 
it,  and,  either  to  keep  the  knot  from  coming  undone  or  to  see  that 
nobody  tampered  with  it,  they  would  put  some  wax  on  that  knot,  but 
it  bore  no  resemblance  to  a  diplomatic  seal. 

Mr.  Velde.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Kearney. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Listening  to  the  testimony  here,  it  seems  to  me  the 
•only  one  who  did  do  his  duty,  as  I  see  it,  was  Major  Jordan.  On  two 
separate  occasions,  Major  Jordan  brought  this  to  the  attention  not 
only  of  his  superior  officers,  but  as  a  result  conferences  were  held  by 
the  various  agencies,  named  by  the  witness,  then  it  was  dropped. 

Mr.  Wood.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Appell.    That  is  all. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Major  Jordan. 

Mr.  Wood.  Major,  I  don't  think  it  is  necessary  to  swear  you  again; 
but,  since  we  are  operating  under  a  subcommittee,  do  you  solemnly 
swear  the  testimony  you  give  to  this  subcommittee  shall  be  the  truth, 
the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  do,  sir. 

Mr.  Wood.  Have  a  seat.  Major. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GEORGE  RACEY  JORDAN 

Mr.  Wood.  Major  Jordan,  on  the  23d  of  January  you  directed  a 
communication  to  me  in  which  you  pointed  out  some  discrepancies  in 
jour  testimony  before  this  committee,  and  indicated  that  you  would 
like  an  opportunity  to  make  some  corrections,  after  having  checked 
the  records.  On  the  28th  of  January  I  made  a  reply  to  that  com- 
munication and  stated  you  would  be  given  that  opportunity.  Is  that 
correct  ? 

(Representative  Nixon  returns  to  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Wood.  And  I  also  informed  you  that,  as  a  result  of  a  public 
announcement  that  I  made  in  December  at  the  request  of  the  minority 
members  of  this  committee,  your  presence  would  probably  be  required 
again  so  that  they  would  have  an  opportunity  to  examine  you,  they 
being  absent  when  you  were  here  before. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

99334 — 50 17 


1154  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

Mr.  Wood.  I  think  in  your  communication  you  stated  you  desired 
to  make  a  correction  of  certain  dates,  particularly  the  date  of  your 
telephone  conversation  with  Mr.  Hopkins.    You  may  proceed. 

Mr.  Jordan.  When  I  testified .  I  had  participated  in  a  telephone 
conversation  with  Mr.  Hopkins,  I  had  previously  told  the  FBI  it  was 
about  3  weeks  before  the  uranium  arrived.  I  was  at  a  disadvantage 
the  last  time  I  was  here,  because  I  didn't  know  when  the  shipment 
had  been  made,  and,  when  you  pressed  me  as  to  what  year  it  was  made, 
I  made  an  honest  attempt  to  tell  you,  and  said  it  was  1944.  But  later, 
when  you  found  it  was  in  May  1943, 1  realized  my  testimony  had  been 
in  error,  because  the  telephone  call  I  had  been  discussing  to  expedite 
this  particular  shipment  occurred  2  or  3  weeks  before  the  uranium 
arrived.  So,  now  that  you  have  been  able  to  pin-point  the  date  the 
uranium  arrived,  I  will  have  to  match  it.  I  did  the  best  I  could  with 
my  memory  after  7  years. 

Mr.  Case.  The  witness  is  merely  changing  the  date  and  not  the  fact 
of  the  telephone  call. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Uranium  started  to  go  through  almost  immediately 
after  I  went  there  and  continued  until  the  last  month  I  was  there, 
so,  for  me  to  pin-point  each  particular  shipment  in  sequence,  I  did 
the  best  I  could. 

Mr.  Case.  And  all  you  are  changing  is 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  changing  the  date  from  1944  to  1943. 
Mr.  Case.  The  fact  of  what  happened,  you  are  not  changing  that 
testimony  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No  ;  I  am  not.  It  has  been  called  to  my  attention  since 
that  time  that  Mr.  Hopkins  was  sick  in  a  hospital  at  that  time,  and  I 
have  been  hoping  to  make  my  testimony  more  correct.  The  uranium 
didn't  arrive  until  the  22d  of  May  1943.  So,  it  would  have  to  be  a  few 
weeks  before  that,  and  I  want  to  take  this  opportunity  to  change 
that  date. 

Mr.  Wood.  Any  other  corrections  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  misspelling  of  a  Russian  officer's  name.  I  said 
Gromov,  and  they  had  Romanov.  I  never  heard  of  Romanov  being 
with  the  Soviet  Government. 

Mr.  Wood.  Do  you  desire  to  ask  the  witness  any  further  questions, 
Mr.  Counsel? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes,  sir.  Major  Jordan,  when  you  were  previously 
before  the  committee  you  told  of  shipments  of  uranium  and  heavy 
water  which  proceeded  through  Great  Falls,  Mont.  If  shipments 
left  the  United  States  from  other  ports,  would  any  records  of  these 
shipments  be  sent  to  Colonel  Kotikov  at  Great  Falls  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  Colonel  Kotikov  worked  with  certain  Russians 
in  the  Purchasing  Commission,  and  I  could  tell  by  the  people  he 
worked  with  as  to  the  type  of  materials  being  handled.  Eremin  was 
a  member  of  the  Purchasing  Commission  and  chief  of  raw  materials. 
Fomichev  was  assistant  chief  of  chemicals.  And  Fomin  was  in  charge 
of  powder  and  explosives.  Even  though  the  chemicals  might  be 
shipped  from  Philadelphia  or  Portland  or  Seattle,  when  they  were 
assembled  and  on  the  docks  and  ready  to  go,  Kotikov  would  be  checked 
with  and  would  send  the  papers  pertaining  to  these  chemicals  to 
Moscow,  where  they  would  be  awaiting  the  arrival  of  the  ships. 

On  the  left-hand  side  of  Colonel  Kotikov's  desk  there  were  many 
folders,  and  I  would  sometimes  get  the  folders  for  Kotikov  when  he 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1155 

was  talking  on  the  telephone.  He  would  say  "chemicals"  or  "metals" 
and  I  would  get  the  particular  folder.  He  knew  what  was  going 
through  in  practically  all  parts  of  the  United  States  that  had  to  do 
with  industrial  plants  that  they  were  collecting.  They  were  collect- 
ing an  oil  refinery,  and  I  would  take  out  that  folder  when  he  was  talk- 
ing on  the  telephone  about  that,  and  when  it  was  assembled  he  would 
send  the  papers  to  Moscow. 

That  is  how  it  became  possible  for  me  to  see  the  words  "uranium," 
and  "thorum,"  and  "cadmium,"  and  all  the  others.  You  never  asked 
me  for  anything  but  uranium,  and  I  never  volunteered  the  others. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  will  ask  you  now.  Colonel  Kotikov  occupied 
what  position  at  Great  Falls  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  thought  he  was  a  perfectly  ordinary  officer,  but  I 
found  out  he  received  the  highest  decoration  of  all  when  he  got  back 
home;  so  he  evidently  was  more  important  than  I  realized.  He 
seemed  to  be  this  end  of  the  pipe  line;  and,  therefore,  it  is  possible 
he  was  more  important  than  in  other  locations  in  the  United  States. 
I  was  very  close  to  him  and  very  friendly  with  him  and  spoke  highly 
of  him,  because  I  was  trying  to  help  him  get  the  materials  he  needed. 
I  understood  that  was  what  my  job  was. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  So  the  materials  that  were  shipped  to  Kussia  from 
other  ports,  the  records  of  those  shipments,  passed  through  Colonel 
Kotikov's  office ;  is  that  what  I  understand  you  to  say  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Mr.  Tavenner,  I  was  very  embarrassed  when  I  found 
you  only  located  45  pounds  of  uranium  when  the  papers  I  had  called 
for  500  pounds.  So  I  listened  to  General  Groves'  testimony,  and  I 
understand  that  while  they  asked  for  500  pounds  they  were  only  able 
to  locate  45.  So  when  I  testified  in  perfectly  good  faith  they  got  500 
pounds,  I  thought  they  did,  but  it  turned  out  they  only  filled  that 
particular  order  to  the  extent  of  45  pounds.     I  took  it  from  the  papers. 

When  I  talked  of  heavy  water,  I  saw  "heavy  water"  on  the  papers. 
I  have  since  been  told  there  was  none  in  the  United  States,  and  that 
what  I  thought  was  heavy  water  was  sulphuric  acid.  When  I  testified 
I  saw  them  loading  carboys  of  heavy  water,  I  was  being  perfectly 
honest.     Now  you  find  out  it  went  through  in  different  quantities. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  in  a  different  container. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  I  received  a  letter  from  a  Norwegian  saying  he 
knew  heavy  water  came  from  Norway  and  was  smuggled  in  this  coun- 
try and  went  to  Russia  through  Great  Falls.  It  is  funny,  but  I  do 
remember  seeing  the  word  "Norge."  I  will  be  glad  to  give  you  the 
letter. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  We  will  be  glad  to  see  it.  Regardless  of  where  the 
shipment  of  these  materials  might  originate,  whether  at  some  port 
such  as  New  York  or  some  airport  such  as  existed  in  Florida,  the  rec- 
ords of  those  shipments  would  pass  through  Colonel  Kotikov's  office 
at  Great  Falls?     Do  I  understand  that  to  be  the  situation? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  dej^ended  entirely  on  what  he  was  collecting  under 
orders.  Radio  shipments  out  of  Newark  might  have  gone  to  Ouspen- 
sky,  and  Ouspensky  might  have  sent  them  to  the  Purchasing  Commis- 
sion, and  they  might  have  been  put  in  suitcases  and  sent  through  with- 
out Kotikov  having  them.  But  the  plants  anywhere  in  the  United 
States  would  be  reported  to  Kotikov,  and  when  the  plants  were  as- 
sembled he  would  then  send  them  on. 


1156  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Here  is  an  official  Soviet  Purchasing  Commission  letter  and  the  ac- 
companying documents.  I  simply  took  that  as  a  souvenir.  But  here  is 
a  letter  showing  the  way  the  plants  were  assembled.  When  the  plant 
was  entirely  assembled,  then  he  would  bundle  it  up  and  send  it  to 
Moscow. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  AVhen  it  was  sent  to  Moscow,  through  what  port  or 
ports  would  it  be  sent  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  depended  on  where  the  ships  were  available.  Some- 
times they  had  to  be  sent  from  Philadelphia  or  New  York  or  Seattle. 
I  have  been  on  ships  at  Newark  with  Kotikov  and  have  watched  the  way 
they  were  loaded.  I  saw  $100,000  of  butter  going  abroad  when  we 
couldn't  get  it  at  home,  and  I  watched  how  they  packed  the  butter  and 
how  Kotikov  checked  the  cases. 
.>  Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  at  Great  Falls  you  had  an  opportunity  to  re- 
view the  records  regarding  the  shipment  of  the  various  materials  that 
Kotikov  was  interested  in  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  had  them  all  in  my  hands. 

Mr.  Ta^tenner.  Do  you  have  knowledge  of  the  use  made  of  thorium, 
cadmium,  graphite,  or  aluminum  tubes? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  did  not  know  at  the  time  what  it  was  for^  I  had  no 
concepton  of  what  the  words  "uranium,"  "cadmium,"  or  "thorium" 
meant  at  the  time ;  but,  now  that  I  have  seen  pictures  of  an  atomic  pile, 
I  recognize  the  various  things  in  it  as  the  very  things  Kotikov  was 
collecting.  I  never  had  seen  the  word  "cadmium"  before.  I  see  here 
that  controls  the  heating  of  the  atomic  pile. 

I  looked  at  my  records  and  saw  that  we  shipped,  in  1942,  100,800 
pounds  cadmium  metals ;  in  1943  we  shipped  150,427  pounds  cadmium 
metals,  72,535  pounds  of  cadmium  alloys;  and  in  1944  we  shipped 
533,742  pounds  cadmium  metals.  In  1944  the  cadmium  alloys  stopped 
cold. 

As  to  thorium,  in  1942  we  shipped  13,440  pounds ;  in  1943  we  shipped 
11,912  pounds ;  and  in  1944  not  a  pound. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  What  was  the  amount  of  thorium  you  said  was 
shipped  in  1943  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Thorium,  13,440  pounds  in  1942  and  11,912  pounds 
in  1943. 

Mr,  Tavenner.  Wliat  was  that  last  figure  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  11,912  pounds  in  1943. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  been  able  to  produce  here  a 
shipper's  export  declaration  showing  the  exact  figure  of  11,912  pounds 
of  thorium  nitrate  shipped  January  30,  1943,  from  Philadelphia  on 
the  Steamship  John  C.  Fremont^  the  exporter  being  Amtorg  Trading 
Corp.  I  desire  to  introduce  this  record  in  evidence  and  ask  that  it  be 
marked  "Jordan  Exhibit  4." 

]\Ir.  Wood.  I  understand  the  record  tendered  is  a  photostatic  copy 
of  the  original? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Yes. 

Mr,  Wood.  Without  objection,  it  will  be  admitted. 

(The  document  above  referred  to,  marked  "Jordan  Exhibit  4,"  is 
filed  herewith.)  *^ 

Mr.  Nixon.  Do  I  understand  you  are  reading  from  your  diary  at 
the  present  time? 

**  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1157 

Mr.  Jordan.  My  diary  consists  of  books  and  bound  volumes  and 
various  notebooks  that  I  kept  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  am  referring  to  this  shipment  of  11,912  pounds. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  am  reading  it  from  the  official  records  the  Russians 
gave  me. 

Mr.  Nixon.  At  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.  They  were  given  to  me  later.  Before  I  went  out 
of  the  Army,  I  was  afraid  there  would  be  a  lend-lease  investigation, 
and  I  asked  the  Russians  if  they  would  let  me  have  the  totals  that 
went  through,  and  they  gave  me  the  complete  totals  of  everything 
Russia  received  in  1942,  1943,  and  1944. 

Mr.  Case.  Everything  they  received  where  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Entirely. 

Mr.  Case.  In  all  forms  of  lend-lease? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.     It  runs  into  billions  of  dollars. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Do  the  uranium  shipments  appear  on  that? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No.  They  were  not  under  lend-lease.  They  were  paid 
by  cash. 

Mr.  Nixon.  This  includes  only  such  shipments  as  were  made  under 
lend-lease? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  includes  only  such  shipments  as  the  American 
taxpayers  paid  for. 

Mr.  Case.  All  shipments  through  every  channel? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Every  shipment  that  went  through  lend-lease  out  of 
the  United  States. 

Mr.  Kearney.  That  is,  at  every  port  of  the  United  States? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Every  port. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Not  only  from  Great  Falls  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Not  only  from  Great  Falls.  So,  what  I  have  been 
able  to  do  is  refresh  my  memory  by  reading  the  total  figures  and 
checking  them  with  what  I  know,  and  they  come  out  right. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  have  told  us  about  thorium.  What  record  do 
you  have  of  the  shipment  of  cadmium  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Cadmium?    I  just  read  the  figures. 

I  didn't  read  the  figures  on  aluminum  tubes.  In  1942  we  shipped 
them  3,463,346  pounds  of  aluminum  tubes  at  a  cost  of  $3,989,506.     In 

1943  we  shipped  them  2,982,209  pounds  at  a  cost  of  $2,491,021.     In 

1944  we  shipped  them  7,186,172  pounds  at  a  cost  of  $6,461,923,  or  a 
total  cost  of  $12,942,450. 

The  graphite,  I  have  a  picture  of  an  atomic  pile  made  up  of  graphite. 
According  to  Colonel  Kotikov  he  was  assembling  graphite  for  fur- 
naces. 

In  1942  we  shipped  them  1,818,838  pounds  of  carbon  graphite  for 
furnaces,  and  7,069,088  graphite  for  furnaces.  In  1943  we  shipped 
them  11,694,118  graphite  for  furnaces.  And  in  1944  we  shipped  them 
9,437,006  graphite  for  furnaces.     The  total  cost  was  $4,327,101. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  These  materials  to  which  you  have  testified — that 
is,  the  thorium,  cadmium,  aluminum  tubes,  and  graphite — could  be 
used  for  what  purposes,  as  far  as  you  know? 
^  Mr.  JoRDON.  I  only  know  that  this  article  on  the  atomic  bomb  gives 
these  materials  as  being  the  necessary  materials  to  make  the  atomic 
bomb.  I  am  not  a  technician  and  not  a  chemist.  This  article  is  in 
Life  magazine  (indicating  publication  in  hand) . 


1158  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Counsel,  I  regret  very  much  to  have  to  suspend  at 
this  time,  but  it  is  only  5  minutes  before  the  convening  of  the  House. 
We  will  take  a  recess  until  3  o'clock  this  afternoon. 

(Thereupon,  at  11 :  55  a.  m.,  a  recess  was  taken  until  3  p.  m.  of  the 
same  day.) 

AFTERNOON  SESSION 

(The  subcommittee  met  at  3  p.  m.) 

Mr.  Wood.  The  record  will  show  that  of  the  subcommittee  conduct- 
ing this  hearing  there  are  present  Messrs.  Velde,  Kearney,  and  Wood. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GEOKGE  RACEY  JORDAN— Resumed 

Mr.  Kearney.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  clarify  in  my  own  mind  a  couple 
of  points  testified  to  this  morning  by  the  witness  ? 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Kearney. 

Mr.  I^ARNET.  I  understood,  Major— and  you  correct  me  if  I  am 
wrong — this  morning  you  testified  to  the  arrival  at  Great  Falls  of  a 
C-47  containing  approximately  50  pieces  of  luggage? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir. 

(Representative  Nixon  arrives  in  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Kearney.  And  as  I  recollect  you  read  from  a  diary  in  which 
the  notations  were  supposed  to  have  been  made  on  or  about  that  time ; 
is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Can  you  tell  the  committee  regarding  any  Russian 
personnel  that  was  aboard  that  plane  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  At  the  beginning,  when  I  first  went  to  Great  Falls  in 
1945,  the  material  I  have  been  complaining  about  arrived  by  freight 
at  the  railroad  station  and  was  brought  out  to  the  field  in  trucks  and 
put  in  a  warehouse  and  then  loaded  onto  a  C-47  which  we  had  specially 
prepared  to  fly  to  Moscow. 

It  is  important  to  get  the  point  why  the  transfer  had  to  be  made  at 
Great  Falls.  These  C-47  planes  that  arrived  from  various  depots  had 
to  be  winterized  to  make  the  flight  to  Moscow.  They  had  to  be  spe- 
cially treated  so  as  to  operate  at  temperatures  50  to  60  degrees  below 
zero.  So  everything  would  have  to  be  transferred  to  a  plane  that  had 
spent  4  days  in  the  hangar  being  winterized. 

So  it  is  entirely  possible  the  freight  may  have  arrived  by  train  and 
been  put  into  a  warehouse,  but  it  could  not  depart  without  my 
authority. 

When  I  referred  to  a  plane  ready  to  go  it  didn't  mean  it  had  just 
arrived  that  day  with  a  particular  load  and  particular  couriers.  Some- 
times a  load  would  arrive  with  a  couple  of  couriers,  and  they  would 
sleep  on  the  load,  and  sometimes  they  would  switch  couriers.  "When 
a  courier  would  spread  out  a  blanket  and  sleep  on  the  bags  I  had  no 
way  of  knowing  how  the  load  had  arrived,  but  when  I  saw  it  on  the 
plane  ready  to  go,  they  had  to  get  my  authority  to  depart,  and  that 
is  when  I  got  on  the  plane  and  inspected. 

Mr.  Kearney.  The  particular  plane  you  referred  to  this  morning, 
did  you  examine  any  of  the  50  pieces  of  luggage  on  that  plane  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  testified  the  last  time,  when  you  were  not  here,  that 
I  had  first  seen  excessive  baggage  going  through  with  a  Russian 
general,  and  I  let  it  go  through.    Each  succeeding  Russian  officer  had 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1159 

increasing  baggage.  When  it  got  to  10  or  15  suitcases  per  person  I 
began  to  become  apprehensive  of  whether  I  was  doing  my  duty ;  and 
when  50  pieces  came  without  any  personnel,  just  2  guards,  that  is  when 
I  felt  I  should  be  in  a  spot-check  position  and  see  what  was  in  the 
suitcases. 

That  was  the  first  time  I  did  it.    I  can't  tell  the  plane  or  time. 

Mr.  Kearney.  At  that  time  did  you  make  a  spot  check  of  them  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  opened  about  one-third  of  the  suitcases. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Was  there  opposition  by  anyone  to  your  opening  the 
bags? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  two  Russians  tried  to  physically  stop  me,  without 
touching  me — tried  to  stop  me  at  the  door,  saying  it  was  diplomatic. 
I  said,  in  the  performance  of  my  duty  I  wanted  to  open  one  or  two 
of  the  suitcases. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Did  you  open  one  or  two  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  opened  about  one-third. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Can  you  tell  the  committee  what  you  found  in  the 
suitcases  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  found  a  very  large  amount  of  office  folders,  and  in 
each  of  the  folders  would  be  duplicates  of  papers  from  various  depart- 
ments of  the  Government.  In  my  notes  made  at  the  time  that  I  actu- 
ally opened  the  suitcases,  I  made  a  one-word  note  which  to  me  meant 
the  whole  suitcase.  Where  I  have  a  note  "State  Department,"  that 
meant  an  entire  suitcase  or  perhaps  two  or  three  suitcases.  The  notes 
were  made  at  the  time,  7  years  ago,  when  this  was  done,  and  I  can  now 
only  say  I  have  a  note  "Panama  Canal  Commission  maps,"  and 
"Amtorg  Trading  Co.,"  and  "Tass,"  and  "State  Department." 

I  can't  go  further  than  to  say  I  remember  in  some  of  the  State  De- 
partment papers  I  took  a  peek  at  one,  and  it  was  a  military  report. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Do  you  know  where  that  military  report  came  from  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  From  Moscow. 

Mr.  Kj^arney.  Was  that  a  folder  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  was  a  folder. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Was  there  any  name  on  that  folder? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  names  were  on  the  front  of  the  folders  on  a  piece 
of  white  paper,  clipped  on  to  show  where  that  particular  folder's  con- 
tents came  from. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Can  you  give  the  committee  the  name  of  any  in- 
dividual on  the  folders  you  saw  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  saw  Sayre,  Hiss,  and  other  members  of  the  State 
Department  whose  names  I  made  a  note  of  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Kjiarney.  Can  you  tell  the  committee  what  was  in  the  folder 
under  the  name  of  Hiss  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  can  only  say  they  were  photostats  of  some  kind  and 
seemed  to  be  military  reports. 

Mr.  Kearney.  Do  you  know  where  the  military  reports  came  from  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  can't  say  where  they  all  came  from,  but  I  would 
say  frcm  Moscow. 

Mr.  Kearney.  From  whom  at  Moscow  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  American  attache  out  there. 

Mr.  Kearney.  And  they  were  sent  from  the  American  military 
chief  of  our  mission  in  Moscow  to  whom  ? 


1160  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

Mr,  Jordan.  They  were  sent  through  channels  to  Washington  to  the 
State  Department,  and  somebody  in  the  State  Department  had  evi- 
dently photostated  them  and  was  sending  them  back. 

Mr.  Kearnet.  You  mean  to  tell  the  committee  these  were  the  re- 
ports sent  from  our  mission  in  Moscow  to  our  own  State  Department 
and  photostated  and  returned  to  Moscow  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  what  it  looked  like. 

Mr.  KJEARNET.  They  were  contained  in  this  baggage  you  speak  of  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.  I  was  looking  for  morphine,  to  be  truthful.  We 
were  missing  morphine,  and  the  couriers  had  been  sleeping  all  night 
beside  the  morphine,  and  I  thought  they  had  been  stealing  it.  I  was 
running  my  hand  through  and  had  no  intention  of  reading  anything, 
but  since  I  had  opened  them  I  wanted  to  make  a  note  of  what  I  had 
seen.  I  made  a  note  "State  Department"  with  "Secret"  cut  off,  and 
I  have  a  notation  of  Sayre,  Hiss,  and  others.  This  was  written  that 
night. 

Mr.  Kjearney.  This  was  military  information  received  by  the  State 
Department  from  our  mission  in  Moscow  and  later  returned  to  the 
Russians  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  what  it  looked  like,  but  at  the  time,  you  must 
remember,  I  thought  this  material  was  going  through  under  authority, 
and  I  had  no  idea  there  was  anything  improper  about  it.  It  looked 
to  me  the  State  Department  knew  what  they  were  doing  when  they 
sent  things  to  Moscow.  I  didn't  think  it  was  anything  I  should  do 
anything  about. 

Mr.  Kearney.  That  sheet  you  are  referring  to  now,  are  those  notes 
made  by  yourself  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  on  the  date  you  spoke  of? 

Mr.  Jordan.  They  were  made  at  the  time  I  opened  the  first  suitcases. 
Then  I  opened  a  number  of  suitcases  later. 

Mr.  Kearney.  What  I  am  getting  at  is,  they  are  your  notes  made 
at  that  time  and  not  some  months  later  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  They  were  made  the  night  I  opened  the  suitcases. 

Mr.  Kearney.  I  think  that  will  be  all  for  the  time  being. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Let  me  clear  one  thing  up  before  you  leave  this  matter 
of  these  names  that  you  have  brought  in.  I  think  the  record  should 
be  clear  that  the  fact  those  names  appeared  in  that  correspondence  and 
on  those  folders  does  not  in  itself  indicate  that  either  of  the  individuals 
named  was  involved  in  illegal  activities  in  sending  folders  through  the 
Russian  couriers. 

Mr.  Jordan.  If  I  had  known  or  thought  it  was  illegal  at  the  time,  I 
would  have  grounded  the  plane.     I  thought  it  was  in  perfect  order. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  are  only  testifying  that  among  the  things  you  saw 
in  those  folders  you  opened,  you  recall  seeing  those  two  names  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  notes  on  those  two  names.  There  were  a  num- 
ber of  names. 

Mr.  Nixon.  You  saw  State  Department  papers? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Nixon.  And  you  saw  somewhere  in  those  State  Department 
papers  the  two  names,  Sayre  and  Hiss,  and  other  names? 

Mr.  Jordan.  That  is  correct.  But  the  fact  is  that  the  folders  were 
in  the  suitcases  in  rows  with  elastic  bands  around  five  or  six  folders, 
and  in  the  front  would  be  a  white  piece  of  paper  with  "From  Hiss" 
and  the  next  batch  "From  Sayre"  and  so  on.  I  just  picked  the  first 
one  or  two  and  made  a  note  to  show  what  was  in  the  suitcase. 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1161 

Mr.  NixON.  I  wanted  the  record  to  be  clear  that  the  testimony  of 
the  witness  on  this  point  rehites  only  to  the  fact  that  certain  docu- 
ments went  through  with  those  names  appearing  on  the  folders,  and  in 
my  opinion,  certainly,  which  I  think  I  should  express,  no  inference  can 
be  drawn  from  that  fact  that  either  of  the  individuals  named  was 
involved  in  illegal  activity. 

Mr.  Kearney.  I  don't  think  from  any  questions  I  asked  such  an 
inference  could  be  drawn. 

Mr.  NixON.  I  think  your  questions  brought  out  the  contrary,  and  I 
wanted  to  bring  out  that  fact.  I  think  the  facts  are  well  brought  out 
by  your  questions.  I  just  wanted  to  high-light  the  same  point  that 
you  made. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Jordan,  I  would  like  to  ask  you  one  question 
about  these  records.  I  believe  you  stated  that  in  the  course  of  your 
examination  of  these  files  you  saw  one  record  or  report  which  origi- 
nated in  Moscow.  I  believe  you  mentioned  that  to  me  earlier  this 
morning  for  the  first  time;  did  you  not? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mv.  Tavenner.  You  had  not  testified  about  that  in  your  former 
testimony  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Mr.  Tavenner,  I  didn't  actually  read  the  letter.  I 
simply  took  a  peek  at  it,  and  I  thought  at  the  time,  whoever  this  mili- 
tary person  was  in  Moscow  that  was  reporting  to  the  State  Depart- 
ment, I  wondered  how  he  would  feel  if  he  knew  the  Russians  had  the 
report  back  again.  Being  a  military  man  I  couldn't  quite  understand 
it,  but  I  let  it  pass.    I  thought  it  was  in  perfect  order. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  you  see  more  than  one  such  report  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Then  there  was  only  one  document  you  can  recall 
that  originated  in  Moscow? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  only  looked  at  one  document.  They  looked  to  me  as 
if  they  were  all  of  the  same  nature;  they  looked  as  if  they  were  all 
alike. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  the  only  one  you  examined  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  only  one  I  was  sure  of.  I  would  rather  stick  to 
the  things  I  know. 

Mr.  Kearney.  I  would  like  to  ask  another  question. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Kearney. 

Mr.  Kearney.  While  I  was  asking  the  previous  questions  I  was 
mulling  over  in  my  own  mind  the  stories  that  have  followed  your 
appearance  on  the  stand,  and  I  would  like,  for  my  own  information 
and  for  the  information  of  the  committee,  a  direct  answer  to  this  ques- 
tion :  Prior  to  your  appearance  on  this  stand  as  a  witness  last  Decem- 
ber, did  you,  directly  or  indirectly,  ever  attempt  to  peddle  your  so- 
called  story  to  any  newspaper  or  periodical? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  never  peddled  the  story.  What  actually  happened 
was,  I  heard  a  radio  broadcast  that  3  ounces  of  uranium  were  missing 
and  that  the  Government  was  looking  for  it.  I  made  the  remark  to 
one  of  my  friends  that  if  they  were  looking  for  uranium  I  could  tell 
them  where  there  were  a  thousand  pounds  of  it. 

This  remark  got  to  [U.  S.  Senator]  Styles  Bridges,  who  sent  word 
to  me  that  he  wanted  to  see  me.  I  spent  over  an  hour  with  him.  He 
said:  "Are  you  certain  you  saw  uranium?"  I  said,  "Yes,  sir."  He 
said,  "Could  you  be  certain  enough  to  testify?"    I  said,  "Yes,  sir." 


1162  SHIPMENT    OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL 

He  said,  "I  will  think  it  over  a  few  days  and  you  will  hear  from  me." 
That  was  October  4. 

A  few  days  later  Fulton  Lewis  called  and  said  Senator  Bridges 
had  told  him  about  my  remark,  and  Fulton  Lewis  wanted  to  know  if 
I  would  give  him  my  story.  I  said  I  would,  and  he  came  to  New  York. 
I  saw  him  at  the  Sherry-Netherland.  He  called  the  FBI,  and  for 
weeks  I  didn't  hear  anything  but  FBI.  They  came  to  my  house,  to 
my  office,  went  through  my  files,  photostated  my  diary,  and  so  on.  It 
amused  me  to  read  that  the  FBI  had  discredited  my  story,  because 
they  spent  hours  on  end  photostating  everything  I  had.  After  work- 
ing on  it  many  weeks  they  told  Mr.  Lewis  their  investigation  was 
finished,  and  then  Mr.  Lewis  agreed  he  would  make  a  broadcast  of  it. 
But  for  a  couple  weeks  there  were  so  many  FBI  men  in  my  office  that 
the  news  leaked  out,  and  a  public  relations  man  offered  his  services 
to  help  me  get  publicity  out  of  it.  First  he  wanted  to  tip  off  another 
commentator,  and  then  take  me  to  Life.  I  told  him  I  was  not  inter- 
ested, but  he  had  made  an  appointment  at  Life,  unbeknown  to  me, 
and  I  didn't  want  to  disappoint  him.  At  Life  they  discredited  me 
and  said  my  story  was  too  full  of  holes  and  turned  it  down. 

I  had  never  peddled  it.  This  particular  public  relations  man  at- 
tached himself  to  me  and  did  these  two  things.  Inasmuch  as  the  story 
was  turned  down  by  two  firms,  I  went  back  and  rested  until  Mr.  Lewis 
called  me  and  went  on  the  air. 

Immediately  the  story  went  the  rounds  I  was  paid  by  the  Republican 
Party  and  peddling  the  story,  and  all  of  that  is  untrue. 

Mr.  Kearney.  I  think  for  the  purpose  of  the  record  I  will  ask  the 
stenographer  to  read  the  question  I  asked  the  witness  to  have  it 
directly  answered  "Yes"  or  "No." 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  answer  is  "No." 

Mr.  Kearney.  The  answer  is  "No"  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Wood,  Proceed. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  At  the  close  of  the  session  this  morning,  Major 
Jordan,  we  were  talking  about  various  other  materials  that  went  into 
the  manufacture  of  the  atomic  bomb  that  were  shipped  to  Russia  to 
your  knowledge.  How  did  you  first  become  acquainted  with  the  fact 
that  the  materials  we  discussed,  such  as  cadmium,  thorium,  graphite, 
and  aluminum  tubes  were  used  in  the  manufacture  of  the  atomic  bomb  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Well,  I  first  thought  that  I  might  have  had  something 
to  do  with  it  when  President  Truman  announced  the  Russians  had  the 
bomb.  That  was  the  first  point  where  I  was  quite  certain  I  knew 
something.  I  have  been  increasingly  interested  in  the  atomic  bomb 
since  my  testimony,  and  a  few  days  ago  I  saw  a  complete  article  in 
Life  magazine  on  the  atomic  bomb.  This  particular  article  in  Life 
mentions  the  very  things  Colonel  Kotikov  was  assembling. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  It  mentions,  does  it  not,  the  use  of  cadmium  rods, 
aluminum  tubes,  graphite,  and  thorium  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  shows  how  they  are  used  in  the  atomic  pile. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Which  issue  of  Life  are  you  referring  to  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  A  recent  issue. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  The  past  week? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  And  was  that  the  first  time  the  importance  of  those 
particular  elements  came  to  your  attention  I 


SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL  1163 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  had  never  known  about  cadmium  before  I  saw  it  there. 
Mr.  Tavenner.  After  you  read  that  article  in  the  recent  issue  of 
Life,  did  you  then  compile  this  data  regarding  the  shipments  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  simply  looked  it  up,  and  there  it  was,  the  full 

amounts. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  I  should  state  that  on  Jan- 
uary 19  of  this  year  an  investigator  of  our  committee  conferred  with 
an  atomic  scientist  regarding  the  importance  of  cadmium  in  the  manu- 
facture of  the  atomic  bomb,  and  he  was  told  it  was  useful  as  a  neutron 
absorber  in  atomic-energy  work.  He  said  he  believed  this  particular 
item  was  not  available  in  Russia. 

Major  Jordan,  do  you  know  the  name  of  the  assistant  of  Colonel 
Kotikov  at  the  Great  Falls  station? 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  had  about  six  different  assistants. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  one  by  the  name  of  Sergeant  Vino- 
gradsky  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Very  well.     I  have  a  picture  of  him. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  outline  to  the  committee  Sergeant  Vino- 
gradsky's  activities  as  far  as  you  know  them,  in  addition  to  his  normal 
activities  in  the  handling  of  materials  that  went  through  Great  Falls. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  have  a  suspicion  that,  despite  the  fact  he  was  only  a 
sergeant  and  was  in  the  warehouse  practically  100  percent  of  the  time 
checking  materials,  he  was  reporting  on  Colonel  Kotikov. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Reporting  on  Colonel  Kotikov  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  would  say  so ;  yes. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Will  you  spell  Vinogradsky,  please?  Do  you  know 
the  spelling  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes.     I  have  it  here.     V-i-n-o-g-r-a-d-s-k-y. 

Mr.  Wood.  Reporting  to  whom  on  Colonel  Kotikov  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  There  was  a  certain  Russian  who  went  through  there 
quite  frequently  by  the  name  of  Anisimov,  A.  A.  Anisimov,  A-n-i-s-i- 
m-o-v.  He  was  apparently  what  we  call  a  card-carrying  member.  I 
saw  him  in  Alaska,  Washington,  Newark,  Great  Falls,  and  wherever 
he  went  it  seemed  he  was  gathering  information  on  personnel.  He 
was  chief  of  personnel  of  all  Russians  in  America.  I  was  at  the  Pur- 
chasing Commission  one  day  and  asked  who  was  the  chief,  and  they 
said,  "Rudenko;  or  do  you  mean  Anisimov,  chief  of  personnel?" 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  know  anything  about  Sergeant  Vinograd- 
sky'a  activities  away  from  Groat  Falls? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  know  only  what  he  told  me.  His  station  was  at  Great 
Falls,  but  for  a  young  sergeant — he  was  a  young  man — he  made  trips 
away  from  Great  Falls,  always  mysterious  trips.  He  told  me  he  went 
to  San  Francisco  and  Portland  and  Newark  and  different  places.  I 
can  only  tell  you  what  he  told  me. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Did  he  advise  you  of  any  person  he  talked  to  in  San 
Francisco  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  He  didn't  exactly  advise  me,  but  I  knew  the  Russian 
personnel  at  different  places,  and  when  he  would  apply  to  go  to  San 
Francisco  he  would  see  Gregory  Khefitz. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Do  you  of  your  own  knowledge  know  anything 
about  Gregory  Khefitz  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  No. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Mr.  Chairman,  Gregory  Khefitz  was  attached  to  the 
Soviet  consulate  in  San  Francisco  and  has  been  the  subject  of  previous 


1164  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

testimony  in  the  cases  of  Martin  Kamen,  Louise  Bransten,  Hanns 
Eisler,  and  other  known  espionage  agents,  and  has  played  a  role  in 
known  Soviet  espionage  activities. 

Did  you  become  acquainted  with  a  Russian  by  the  name  of  Semen 
Vassilenko  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,     He  was  the  chemical  expert, 

Mr,  Tavenner,  Will  you  give  the  spelling  of  his  name  ? 

Mr,  Jordan.  S-e-m-e-n  V-a-s-s-i-1-e-n-k-o.     He  departed  from  the 

United  States  February  17,  1944,  in  airplane  No. .     I  will  have  to 

get  that.     He  departed  on  February  17,  1944. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  You  have  a  note  of  that  departure  date? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes ;  I  have. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  In  your  diary  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes;  I  have.  When  Vassilenko  would  arrive  at  the 
airport  it  would  be  a  signal  for  Colonel  Kotikov  to  pull  out  two  or 
three  folders  on  chemicals  and  walk  down  the  runway  where  there 
were  no  dictographs  and  put  the  folders  on  the  wing  of  an  airplane 
and  talk  with  Vassilenko  an  hour  or  so,  that  is,  if  the  complete  chemical 
plant  had  been  assembled,  Vassilenko  had  three  guards  with  him.  I 
have  the  names  of  the  three  guards. 

Mr.  Ta\T3nner.  Will  you  give  them,  please? 

Mr,  Jordan.  Leonid  Rykoukin;  Engeny  Kojevnitov;  and  Georges 
Nicolaiev.  They  departed,  according  to  my  diary,  on  February  17, 
1944,  with  a  load  of  about  4,000  pounds  of  special  high  priority  diplo- 
matic mail. 

Mr.  TA^^ENNER.  Do  you  know  the  place  of  origin  of  the  mail  on  that 
particular  plane,  or  would  your  records  show  that  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  know  the  plane  came  from  Washington,  D.  C,  be- 
cause Vassilenko  and  his  guards  came  directly  from  the  Purchasing 
Commission  in  Washington. 

Mr.  Tavenner,  I  would  like,  Mr,  Chairman,  to  introduce  in  evidence 
copies  of  documents  handed  us  this  morning  by  Major  Jordan,  and 
return  the  originals  to  him.  The  first  is  a  letter  written  by  Col.  A. 
Kotikov  to  Col.  R.  C.  Rockwell,  Newark,  N.  J.,  bearing  date  July  6, 
1942,  with  pencil  memorandum  attached,  which  I  ask  be  marked 
"Jordan  Exhibit  5." 

Mr.  Wood.  You  are  introducing  copies  ? 

Mr.  Ta\t:nner.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr,  Wood.  That  have  been  made  in  the  committee  ? 

Mr.  Tavenner.  By  the  reporter. 

Mr,  Wood.  They  will  be  admitted. 

(The  documents  above  referred  to,  marked  "Jordan  Exhibit  5,"  are 
filed  herewith.)  ^' 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  would  like  to  introduce  a  copy  of  letter  written 
by  Alex  Marquis  to  Mr.  Jordan,  dated  December  8,  1949,  and  ask  that 
it  be  marked  "Jordan  Exhibit  6." 

Mr.  Wood.  I  understand  that  was  likewise  copied  by  the  reporter  ? 

Mr,  Tavenner.  Yes, 

Mr.  Wood.  It  will  be  admitted, 

(The  copy  of  letter  above  referred  to,  marked  "Jordan  Exhibit  6,"  is 
filed  herewith, )  ^° 

^  See  appendix. 
*"  See  appendix. 


SHIPMENT   OF   ATOMIC   MATERIAL  1165 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  all  I  desire  to  ask  Mr.  Jordan,  but  I  would 
like  to  have  permission  from  him  to  photostat  the  record  of  shipments 
which  he  has  brought  here  with  him,  together  with  his  diary  and 
notes,  and  return  the  originals  to  him,  if  he  is  willing  for  us  to  do  it. 

Mr.  Jordan.  O.  K. 

Mr.  Wood.  Very  well. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Wood.  Mr.  Nixon. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  was  wondering  if  it  might  be  possible  to  include  in 
the  record  the  Lend-Lease  memorandum  which  Mr.  Jordan  has  re- 
ferred to,  the  memorandum  in  regard  to  lend-lease  shipments. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  That  is  what  I  am  having  photostated. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Mr.  Jordan,  most  of  the  questions  which  I  had  have 
already  been  answered.  One  question  which  still  remains  is  in  regard 
to  your  having  reported  these  matters  to  your  superior  officers  or  to 
other  agencies  who  had  jurisdiction.  The  testimony  to  date  has  been 
that  at  least  two  reports  were  made  by  you  which  have  been  corrobo- 
rated.   You  heard  that  testimony? 

Mr.  Jordan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Can  you  add  anything  as  to  any  official  reports  that 
you  made  other  than  those  two  times  concerning  these  shipments? 
Before  you  answer  that,  let  me  first  ask  you  this :  The  testimony  was 
that  the  Counter  Intelligence  agent  who  first  interviewed  you  was  re- 
quested by  you  that  you  be  given  an  opportunity  to  elaborate  in  detail 
in  regard  to  the  shipments  to  which  you  had  referred.  Did  Counter 
Intelligence  or  any  other  agency  of  the  Government  ever  approach 
you  after  that  time  and  ask  you  to  make  such  elaborjition  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  colonel  of  our  post,  the  colonel  of  Gore  Field, 
was  interviewed  by  a  reporter,  and  he  has  a  statement  in  the  news- 
paper to  the  eti'ect  that  I  had  been  raising  the  devil.  Well,  I  can 
only  say  that  that  meant  I  was  talking  to  everyone  that  I  thought 
might  be  helpful  in  getting  something  done  about  it.  He  remarked 
to  the  reporter  that  the  Capitol  dome  could  have  been  taken  for  all 
Jordan  could  do  about  it.  That  was  one  officer.  Several  other 
officers  have  come  forward  and  have  made  statements  to  indicate 
that  at  that  time  I  must  have  done  a  lot  of  hollering.  One  officer 
said  Jordan  was  always  raising  hell  about  it.  H*is  words  were  that 
he  could  back  me  up  and  knew  I  had  been  making  a  big  hullabaloo 
about  it.  I  will  admit  I  didn't  say  anything  about  uranium,  and 
I  didn't  say  anything  about  State  Department  papers.  I  simply  talked 
about  the  excessive  amount  of  diplomatic  mail  going  uninspected. 
That  seemed  to  be  the  crux  of  my  complaint. 

Mr.  Nixon.  Did  you  know  about  the  atomic  bomb  in  1948  ? 

Mr,  Jordan.  No.  I  didn't  know  about  the  atomic  bomb  until  it 
was  dropped  on  Hiroshima,  and  I  didn't  know  the  Russians  had  it 
until  President  Truman  made  the  announcement. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  would  say  if  you  had  particularly  singled  out  uranium 
in  1943  your  story  would  be  inherently  incredible.  Your  answer  to 
the  question  whether  your  request  that  you  be  given  opportunity  to 
go  into  detail  in  regard  to  the  shipments  to  which  you  had  referred 
was  granted 

Mr.  Jordan.  The  answer  is  "no."  Mr.  Appell  said  there  was  no 
record  I  went  to  Washington  to  talk  about  it,  yet  I  have  the  official 


1166  SHIPMENT    OF    ATOMIC    MATERIAL 

order  to  go  to  Washington  for  the  purpose  of  discussing  movements 
of  Russian  aircraft  through  Great  Falls.     This  is  my  original  record. 

Mr.  Nixon.  I  ask  that  this  document  be  made  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  I  suggest  it  be  marked  "Jordan  exhibit  7." 

Mr.  Wood.  I  don't  care  to  deprive  Major  Jordan  of  the  original, 
but  with  his  permission  I  will  ask  the  reporter  to  copy  it. 

Mr.  Tavenner.  Or  he  can  read  it  in  the  record. 

Mr.  Jordan.  It  is  Special  Order  No.  3,  dated  January  4,  1944, 
ordering  Maj.  George  R.  Jordan  to  proceed  by  military  aircraft 
from  Army  Air  Base  at  Great  Falls,  Mont.,  to  Washington,  D.  C, 
for  the  purpose  of  conferring  with  AAF  officials  on  the  movement 
of  Russian  aircraft. 

Mr.  Wood.  Does  that  comply  with  your  suggestion  ? 

Mr.  Kearney.  I  think  the  signature  of  the  officer  issuing  that  order 
should  also  be  made  a  part  of  the  record. 

Mr.  Jordan.  Col.  Russell  L.  Meredith,  commanding  officer  of  the 
air  base. 

I  have  a  note  in  my  diary,  "Washington,  Colonel  Paige's  office,"  and 
he  was  Chief  of  the  International  Office  in  charge  of  Lend-Lease. 
Then  I  have  another  note,  "Saw  General  Jones,"  and  he  was  Chief  Air 
Inspector.  I  si)ecifically  saw  him,  and  saw  Colonel  Wilson  and  Col. 
Vander  Lugt  and  others,  and  that  was  followed  by  an  air  inspector, 
Colonel  Dahm,  arriving  a  few  days  later  at  the  field  to  follow  up  my 
complaint, 

Mr.  Kearney.  What  date  ? 

Mr.  Jordan.  January  25.  I  took  him  over  the  base  and  showed 
him  what  I  was  complaining  about,  and  he  was  so  incensed  that  a 
few  days  later  10  air  inspectors  arrived.  They  arrived  on  the  3d 
of  March,  and  one  stayed  there  for  months.  These  10  were  all  from 
the  Air  Inspector  General's  office.  And  I  think  the  security  officer 
of  the  field,  who  was  called  in  to  the  meeting,  is  sitting  back  there. 

Mr.  Kearney.  I  think  for  the  record  not  only  the  day  and  month, 
but  the  year,  should  be  given. 

Mr.  Jordan.  I  went  to  Washington